In your opinion, how should Sonic's friends be used?

[Sonikko]

4 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Honestly, I hope Taxman remake those games. 

This fan project might interest you then, check it out!

[Shadowlax]

12 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

 

Summing it up, it should be a bonus for people that like it, and not a chore for people that don't like it. It's something that you notice it's there when you appreciate it, and can completely ignore or play the same way you would with Sonic if you don't want any of that. 

 

I think that's shitty and dissagree actually. If you want to make no story 2d-esque titles sure that works. But I don't want that, the thing about adventure games I like was that the other characters were important to the story. The other characters, can't be important to the story like that. I feel like, the ability to just pick sonic is there, but the ability to get to the " end of the story" should be locked behind playing the story via the other character. No company is going to actually put effort into the elements of a narrative people would never see. And a bunch favorite games, force you to play as other characters because of that. Yakuza has been doing this ALOT lately. So I don't mind if people get pissy its shadow instead of sonic, I want them to be important. If you make a good game, most people forget about the " shitty friends" thing and just play the game. 

So I disagree. Put em in, make them important, heck make them have to be playable in the story to get to other parts of said narrative. Just make a good game around that and you will be fine. 

[Sonikko]

7 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I think that's shitty and dissagree actually. If you want to make no story 2d-esque titles sure that works. But I don't want that, the thing about adventure games I like was that the other characters were important to the story. The other characters, can't be important to the story like that. I feel like, the ability to just pick sonic is there, but the ability to get to the " end of the story" should be locked behind playing the story via the other character. No company is going to actually put effort into the elements of a narrative people would never see. And a bunch favorite games, force you to play as other characters because of that. Yakuza has been doing this ALOT lately. So I don't mind if people get pissy its shadow instead of sonic, I want them to be important. If you make a good game, most people forget about the " shitty friends" thing and just play the game. 

So I disagree. Put em in, make them important, heck make them have to be playable in the story to get to other parts of said narrative. Just make a good game around that and you will be fine. 

I didn't even mention them in the story context. I'd like them to be optional, but having their separate stories is good too. I was talking strictly about gameplay.

Like. I don't think the story is the main dish in a Sonic game. Gameplay is, so speaking of other characters only in the context of the plot isn't really that important to me, that's why I didn't mention it! 

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

I didn't even mention them in the story context. I'd like them to be optional, but having their separate stories is good too. I was talking strictly about gameplay.

Those things I feel are integral to each other. The reason that sonic mania is the way it is, is because that game's story , can be easily communicated with a low budget. And that works, its like new super mario bros, you don't need CGI cutscenes for those games. They are supposed to emulate games of old, you all go punch a fat mustached doctor and/or Kaiju single father who stole your girlfriend for the umtenth time , go get them. 

However 3D sonic the stories , even now with infinite tend to be more complicated, animated cutscenes, VA, VGI cutscenes that sort of thing. So you aren't just going to put a character in a game with no story or context, if a characters there unless they are strait up an easter egg ( and even sometimes when they are like Dante in V joe) they need to have some form of context around there being there. So you have to dedicated efforts to incorporating them into the narrative. Which takes time, money and effort. And these things will be expected if the characters a fan favorite. Sega already might have ruined their own villian with this in forces,  a lot folks didn't really care about infnite beyond " wow this dude is edgy" and more folks seemed to be  " get the fuck down of that rock shadow be a good guy" and much like all the criticism of this game , it seemed to catch sega a bit off guard 

While video games are fun and magic, they also take like time and money and manpower and man hours and having to have people put effort into things to function.So when you talk about other playable characters in sonic you now need to talk about other playable characters in sonic with 3d animation and voice acting because that's apart of it now.  And to relegate them to none of that implies a non importance for the character, that I don't want. 

[Sonikko]

Just now, Shadowlax said:

Those things I feel are integral to each other. The reason that sonic mania is the way it is, is because that game's story , can be easily communicated with a low budget. And that works, its like new super mario bros, you don't need CGI cutscenes for those games. They are supposed to emulate games of old, you all go punch a fat mustached doctor and/or Kaiju single father who stole your girlfriend for the umtenth time , go get them. 

However 3D sonic the stories , even now with infinite tend to be more complicated, animated cutscenes, VA, VGI cutscenes that sort of thing. So you aren't just going to put a character in a game with no story or context, if a characters there unless they are strait up an easter egg ( and even sometimes when they are like Dante in V joe) they need to have some form of context around there being there. So you have to dedicated efforts to incorporating them into the narrative. Which takes time, money and effort. And these things will be expected if the characters a fan favorite. Sega already might have ruined their own villian with this in forces,  a lot folks didn't really care about infnite beyond " wow this dude is edgy" and more folks seemed to be  " get the fuck down of that rock shadow be a good guy" and much like all the criticism of this game , it seemed to catch sega a bit off guard 

While video games are fun and magic, they also take like time and money and manpower and man hours and having to have people put effort into things to function.So when you talk about other playable characters in sonic you now need to talk about other playable characters in sonic with 3d animation and voice acting because that's apart of it now.  And to relegate them to none of that implies a non importance for the character, that I don't want. 

Sonic games aren't developed around the plot. The plot is developed around the game idea. That's why I focused on gameplay. If they want alternate characters playable they'll shove in a plot reason eventually.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Honestly the way you were going about it Sonikko, I got the impression that you meant that each playable character can have their own story, but Sonic is the only one you need to play to finish the game. Like you only need to play as Sonic to finish the entire game (which includes the final boss of the entire game), but if you want to see the story from a different perspective or see the bits that Sonic didn't see, you can play as a different character who is entirely optional.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

Sonic games aren't developed around the plot. The plot is developed around the game idea. That's why I focused on gameplay. If they want alternate characters playable they'll shove in a plot reason eventually.

That doesn't really negate what i'm saying no matter which one is developed first. Things have to go towards creating some form of story if they are going to have an interesting and involved one. And to have characters be completely optional implies a worthlessness that I do not want for these characters, and the world of sonic.  I totally wouldn't mind sections of the stories or levels you can't get to unless you play as another character.

I think the issue for most people isn't the other character, its the game being bad part. 

[Sonikko]

Just now, Shadowlax said:

That doesn't really negate what i'm saying no matter which one is developed first. Things have to go towards creating some form of story if they are going to have an interesting and involved one. And to have characters be completely optional implies a worthlessness that I do not want for these characters, and the world of sonic.  I totally wouldn't mind sections of the stories or levels you can't get to unless you play as another character.

I think the issue for most people isn't the other character, its the game being bad part. 

Lmao I'm not trying to disprove your point, I am just saying that I didn't even think about the plot when I wrote that post because I don't really care for it!

Having the characters being important in the plot is a good thing, I'd love to see that. I liked the different point of views in SA1.

Again, I didn't even take it in consideration, and technically Knuckles is optional in Sonic 3&K, but you won't see the whole plot without playing with him. 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

That doesn't really negate what i'm saying no matter which one is developed first. Things have to go towards creating some form of story if they are going to have an interesting and involved one. And to have characters be completely optional implies a worthlessness that I do not want for these characters, and the world of sonic.  I totally wouldn't mind sections of the stories or levels you can't get to unless you play as another character.

I think the issue for most people isn't the other character, its the game being bad part. 

Honestly, being optional isn't the same thing as being worthless. It just means that people have the choice of being able to decide what they WANT to play, and it means that if they don't feel like playing as a different character, they don't have to until they feel like it. I'd argue that's actually a good thing, since this means that there will be less people complaining about characters they don't like, while the people who DO like those characters won't get left in the dust.

[The Deleter]

Plus, we're never getting the Yakuza equivalent of a Sonic game any time soon. Forcing everyone to play as everything before you can unlock the final boss (especially egregious in games that are basically the same character and have the same levels as the main character... *looks at Heroes*) merely in anticipation of such a game, is pretty unreasonable when the benefits for forced are so low and net gains for optional are so high, otherwise.

In an ideal world, that kind of design would be best used to make the story as fleshed out as possible though, yeah.

[CleverSonicUsername]

I think they're fine so long as their gameplay is complimentary in some way. Classic/Modern's division worked because they maintained the need to run from one end of a level to another. Contrast that with emerald hunting or Werehog beat-em-up segments where the game's momentum grinds to a halt and players are forced to do something slow and decidedly "unsonic."

I think part of why some characters worked in the first Adventure game was because they were split off into their own stories, and that's fine too. You can pace their experience around their gameplay so it doesn't interrupt Sonic's.

Edit: Somewhat related maybe, if you're going to have them pair up with Sonic, don't make them interject with some hot take on what's going on in the level every few seconds. For fuck's sake, this was a drag in Heroes, it was a drag in Boom (which was a drag in general but), and it already seems like a drag in Forces. Let the levels speak for themselves, tell a story through how you progress and transition from one level to the next instead of having a parade of characters blathering on constantly.

[Shadowlax]

19 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Honestly, being optional isn't the same thing as being worthless. It just means that people have the choice of being able to decide what they WANT to play, and it means that if they don't feel like playing as a different character, they don't have to until they feel like it. I'd argue that's actually a good thing, since this means that there will be less people complaining about characters they don't like, while the people who DO like those characters won't get left in the dust.

Yeah they will be, because there will be less story assets and level assets dedicated to that. And I want them to have stories, I want them to be integral the plot doing things that sonic isn't or can't be doing that requires the story to progress. And if sonic's the only required none of that will be there and I like that sort of thing.

And for the people who complain about characters, I don't give a shit. They complain about characters in everything, they complain goku isn't main charact-ey enough in DBS they complain that you can play as riku in some of the KH games, they complain about everything when you can't just play as the " main guy. And that's there prerogative, and that's fair, heck I don't like every sonic character right. But outside of just dealing with it because that's the game they wanted to make. 

Sonic mania exists, and I will assume it will continue to exists with new games in the future. Play that. If you want a sonic solo experience, play that game. If you want a more involved, thing with other characters, a play 3d sonic game. And heck if sega decides to go the route of making more different kinds of sonic games, they could very well get there " sonic only 3d thing" and be happy. They can just play that hypothetical game. But I feel like its no need to make these games uniform to this formula, espically when you have options. 

If people are gonna get pissy because shadow exists, I don't give half  of  a shit, I want more games where other characters like blaze or tails or whoever are integral to the narrative. And you play as them to progress that thing. 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

23 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Yeah they will be, because there will be less story assets and level assets dedicated to that. And I want them to have stories, I want them to be integral the plot doing things that sonic isn't or can't be doing that requires the story to progress. And if sonic's the only required none of that will be there and I like that sort of thing.

And for the people who complain about characters, I don't give a shit. They complain about characters in everything, they complain goku isn't main charact-ey enough in DBS they complain that you can play as riku in some of the KH games, they complain about everything when you can't just play as the " main guy. And that's there prerogative, and that's fair, heck I don't like every sonic character right. But outside of just dealing with it because that's the game they wanted to make. 

Sonic mania exists, and I will assume it will continue to exists with new games in the future. Play that. If you want a sonic solo experience, play that game. If you want a more involved, thing with other characters, a play 3d sonic game. And heck if sega decides to go the route of making more different kinds of sonic games, they could very well get there " sonic only 3d thing" and be happy. They can just play that hypothetical game. But I feel like its no need to make these games uniform to this formula, espically when you have options. 

If people are gonna get pissy because shadow exists, I don't give half  of  a shit

What makes you think there's going to be less of story or level assets? Those can still exist even if the other characters are optional. They could just be designed so that they're integrated into one big level, but covering different sections. Heck, Sonic Adventure 2 did this to some degree with it's level designs. Knuckles' Pumpkin Hill is Shadow's Sky Rail (AT NIGHT), Green Forest and White Jungle for Sonic/Shadow, the different parts of Prison Island for Tails/Eggman, Final Rush/Final Chase...

Plus just because they're optional to PLAY as doesn't mean they'd become optional in the story. It would be kinda like Sonic Adventure in that regard; You can play as Sonic or Tails, but both of them are going to be present in each other's story regardless...except actually optional and not "optional unless you want to see the last story" kind of optional.

[RedFox99]

Again the idea of having different characters be optional yet important to the plot doesn't seem too impossible. In fact, they can help flesh out the story more while not angering the "Anti-extended cast" fans.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

6 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Again the idea of having different characters be optional yet important to the plot doesn't seem too impossible. In fact, they can help flesh out the story more while not angering the "Anti-extended cast" fans.

Well to be frank they'd probably still bitch anyways, but they'd have a much harder time justifying their reaction. Really this method would probably be better for swaying the people on the fence, since instead of feeling like they're being forced to play, they'd instead have more choice on they want to play.

[The Deleter]

It's not just SA2; near every Sonic game with alternate playable characters reuses level assets for their campaigns, if not just the same levels all over again

 

Sonic 3 & Knuckles

Sonic Adventure

Sonic Adventure 2

Sonic Advanced, 2, and 3

Sonic Battle

Sonic Heroes

Sonic 06

Sonic Rush

Sonic Rush Adventure

Sonic Rivals

Sonic Rivals 2

Sonic Unleashed

Sonic Generations

Sonic Forces

 

The only outlier here, pretty sure, are the Rider games, where each campaign got completely original, built from the ground up levels to play through throughout their entirety. The rest got exclusive levels and bosses sometimes, but it's not like Mania doesn't make that effort, either.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

2 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

It's not just SA2; near every Sonic game with alternate playable characters reuses level assets for their campaigns, if not just the same levels all over again

The only outlier here, pretty sure, are the Rider games, where each campaign got completely original, built from the ground up levels to play through throughout their entirety. The rest got exclusive levels and bosses sometimes, but it's not like Mania doesn't make that effort, either.

Yeah, pretty much. I just used SA2 because it was the one where I noticed more effort being put into making each level look/feel a little different. My example with Pumpkin Hill being Sky Rail (AT NIGHT) being a prime example.

[Multikaris]

3 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

I like this point so much. Has anyone complained about Tails and Knuckles in Mania? Nope. Either you appreciate and enjoy their presence, or you don't notice it at all. They compliment the existing and expected gameplay rather than change it. They don't impose on the story either, and nowhere does the game tell you to do anything silly and superfluous.

Mania doesn't have Sonic's shitty friends. It just has alternative playable character choices. 

Forces has shitty friends constantly beeping in over the radio and narrating your gameplay, and they aren't even playable. 

So...

 

This statement reminds me of some of those people who say that the other characters are inherently bad. But, I guess they could fall under the "ignored" part as opposed to interrupting the gameplay. 

 

This is why the HBH have less annoyance than the Deadly Six. The Deadly Six intrude everywhere and have 1-dimensional characterization, and bad design. The hard boiled Heavies aren't annoying.

 

Will there always be people like THIS in this world?

 

 

Ugh!

[Shadowlax]

12 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Again the idea of having different characters be optional yet important to the plot doesn't seem too impossible. In fact, they can help flesh out the story more while not angering the "Anti-extended cast" fans.

To be quite fair, those people will always be upset.

30 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

What makes you think there's going to be less of story or level assets? Those can still exist even if the other characters are optional. They could just be designed so that they're integrated into one big level, but covering different sections. Heck, Sonic Adventure 2 did this to some degree with it's level designs. Knuckles' Pumpkin Hill is Shadow's Sky Rail (AT NIGHT), Green Forest and White Jungle for Sonic/Shadow, the different parts of Prison Island for Tails/Eggman, Final Rush/Final Chase...

That's true, I like that about that game. its why I like it more than SA1. And that would totally help their value to cost issue on those assets they keep complaining about to be quite honest they should have been doing that again a while ago.

30 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Plus just because they're optional to PLAY as doesn't mean they'd become optional in the story. It would be kinda like Sonic Adventure in that regard; You can play as Sonic or Tails, but both of them are going to be present in each other's story regardless...except actually optional and not "optional unless you want to see the last story" kind of optional.

Here's the thing I don't kind of want it to be just that, and here's why. 

 

26 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Again the idea of having different characters be optional yet important to the plot doesn't seem too impossible. In fact, they can help flesh out the story more while not angering the "Anti-extended cast" fans.

I feel like, I guess I want more interrogated story stuff, because it does interesting story telling stuff as a medium. One of the things I like about video games, and not just sonic, I mean video games as medium, is that story telling progresses generally at the pace the player chooses to engage. And to go " well you can just do it all at the end " kind of while satisfies that technically ruins the idea. 

I like having things in the story go " if you want to get past this thing, you probably need sonic's help." Hit him up, and then you play though sonic levels get to that point, do thing and story progresses. I like video games being video gamey in that sense, it makes the characters feel useful, but more so than that. I thnk that sonic with its multitude of characters has the potential take that to the next level. 

I want the story to actively change and be different progression depending on who you play first and the order. One of the things I actually liked about shadow's game is that it had different endings, I hated the content of a lot of those endings, but I like the idea. I also hated that you had to play through a bajilliondey levels in sequence to get different endings that were not rewarding. However having a game that is good and hypothetical have less levels, but changes with who you play with would be interesting. I feel like sonic is one of the few franchises that can actually do this because it has, despite memes a bunch of characters people when put in a context of a good game, generally like. 

So I guess I feel like you could get a lot more interesting story content that could effect everyone, but some of those elements I feel like if you were going to do it in an interesting way.

LIke for example right, you pick knuckles and he does a level and with his uh...charming personality, blows up the death egg and that thing has like a giant whole in it , its all messed up. And now sonic or whoever now has to play the shitted up messed up version of that level. And the only way to get that level, is that you have to play that in that order. And there are variants like that. 

Oh shadow went though the level first, maybe through story bullshit his powers got increased and have residual effects, so now that he went through the level first, time is stopped during parts of the levels revealing interesting alternate paths. Or Blaze went through it first and she's burned paths through the level. Or Amy did something at a completely separate part earlier in the plot, or didn't and now this level is like at different time of day and has enemies. 

I feel like interesting content, that uses video games as a medium to tell varied stories needs that character content lock to function. And I feel like that would do interesting things for sonic as a game series I guess

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

6 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

I like this point so much. Has anyone complained about Tails and Knuckles in Mania? Nope.

I'd argue that people didn't complain about Tails and Knuckles in Mania because they put them on a better pedestal than other characters, and wouldn't have complained about them regardless than if you stuck someone like Shadow there in the game without any problems.

Most of the time whenever the phrase "Sonic's Shitty Friends" pops up, Tails and Knuckles are considered exceptions regardless of whether they've been poorly done or not with everyone else. It's not like that's a surprise when that was made clear by most outlets that used the term since ShTH and Sonic 06 flopped, and still used the term even when every other character was relegated as NPCs at best or absent at worst and Sonic was made the only playable character up until now. Not that good gameplay can't fix the problem, but it's hardly any shock that no one would have complained about Tails or Knuckles in Mania unless you messed them up to Sonic 06 levels of bad--and hell, I'd wouldn't be surprised even if they were botched that bad that people wouldn't blast them as badly as they've done others.

[RedFox99]

What would be a good start to fixing the extend cast's reputation?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Good gameplay and writing.

Although to do that, one would need to have a clear vision of things when it comes to implementing the extended cast in the framework of the game. Everyone has unique abilities, but not all of them can be implemented the same. And that's not getting into the other essential part that is Level Design which can make or break anyone's idea towards implementing said character.

Heroes for instance is the worst example of this by making everyone play almost the exact same but with very negligible differences, like Espio sticking indefinitely to walls amd being able to turn invisible at the players whim. Meanwhile, Team Rose and Dark play as a much easier and much harder version of Team Sonic, with the only difference being that Amy can't Triangle Jump.

Shadow is one of the easiest characters to fix when you really look at it given that he's essentially Sonic with more abilities much in the same way Tails and Knuckles are. Meanwhile others like Silver and Big (possibly Rouge, but there a degree a ambiguity given she has similarities with Knuckles) would be a lot more difficult to put in and expect to work well or even be balanced given that Silver can either break the game if you don't balance him right or be seen as a problem if you limit his abilities too much.

[Blue Blood]

12 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

What would be a good start to fixing the extend cast's reputation?

Stop: Doing it wrong.

Start: Doing it right.

[Shadowlax]

31 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

What would be a good start to fixing the extend cast's reputation?

Put them in good shit

Write them good

Not just games, Tv , comics ect. Do this consistently. The people who like sonic, and who are ok with sonic will come around. When you have them, then, the people who like regurgitating sonic memes. Will be come the annoying meme themselves. 

[RedFox99]

Just now, Shadowlax said:

Put them in good shit

Write them good

Not just games, Tv , comics ect. Do this consistently. The people who like sonic, and who are ok with sonic will come around. When you have them, then, the people who like regurgitating sonic memes. Will be come the annoying meme themselves. 

For example look at Blaze. In both her console appearance (sans Black Knight), she was in one of the worst received games in the series and in the other one, she had a minimal role in the story.