Sonic Forces devs to teach what good level design is about

[NoKaine]

3 minutes ago, Ratcicle King said:

I don't recall ever crediting them for 06

In general, if today's Sonic Team can't be credited for the old good games they made, they can't be credited for the old bad games they made either.

Quote

You know what we can credit them for tho'? Sonic Forces.

Damn skippy.

Now whether or not Forces as a whole is a bad example of level design, or that Sonic Team is actually incapable of teaching good level design ("do as I say, not as I do", y'know), we'll have to see, won't we?

[Sonic the Hedgehog in 3D]

6 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

You do know that the Sonic Team working on the games today aren't the same guys who did '06, or Secret Rings, or Black Knight, right.

I mean we can't play the "We can't credit today's Sonic Team for the Genesis games" and the "We can credit today's Sonic Team for '06" at the same time.

We can credit 06 to some of today's Sonic Team tho 

[NoKaine]

7 minutes ago, family guy said:

We can credit 06 to some of today's Sonic Team tho 

Do you know how little a producer actually has to do with the actual game.

Quite little. He isn't the director, or any programmer or has any seat in actually designing the levels of the game.

He's working on the story, but this isn't a Literary 101 class.

And if Forces is bad, it won't be Sonic '06 bad, nor does it seem to have its issues, anyhow.

[Riseodvi]

The Mania team during the whole presentation:

[Marcello]

In other news, I'm going to teach a class how to lead a healthy and successful life.

[Crazy_Diamond]

Are they going to upload this? And if so, is anyone willing to translate? It would be really interesting to see Sonic Team's philosophy when it comes to level design.

[Milo]

I too can't wait to hear them explain how putting dash panels in automated tunnel sequences, and having enemies that stand there and shoot a projectile sometimes lined up together in a row, are examples of good level design.

1 hour ago, NoKaine said:

Do you know how little a producer actually has to do with the actual game.

Quite little. He isn't the director, or any programmer or has any seat in actually designing the levels of the game.

He's working on the story, but this isn't a Literary 101 class.

And if Forces is bad, it won't be Sonic '06 bad, nor does it seem to have its issues, anyhow.

This is blatantly false. A game producer has everything to do with setting the design intentions and parameters as to how the game is made, as well as being responsible for how the game comes together as a product during development in the first place. 

Do you think that Forces having Nakamura as a producer/story writer and being the first Sonic game in years to break away from the recent string of goofy and plot-irrelevant Sonic games in favor for a serious tone and presentation from earlier 3D Sonic games (to the point of having former villains from that era returning and having a new villain inspired from that era) is all a sheer coincidence?

[Rusty Spy]

Anybody who attends this conference needs to be put on a hiring blacklist, so they cannot contaminant the rest of the world!

[Scar]

To be fair, Green Hill Zone Classic was a pretty well designed opening level. Sure the actual physics etc. were off base, but the actual design of the stage and the way visual cues are use and camera positioning was pretty decent.

The big problem is, Sonic Team either forgot they knew how to design decent levels or simple do not care enough to try any more.

[sonicdudeatdawn]

a topic with the motivation of spurring more disagreements between lovers of the same franchise, based entirely on early stages we have seen for an upcoming game

how incredibly foolish.

[Sonikko]

This must be a joke or something

[Nix]

Can't have bad level design when everyone is just as good as you.

[Milo]

53 minutes ago, Scar said:

To be fair, Green Hill Zone Classic was a pretty well designed opening level. Sure the actual physics etc. were off base, but the actual design of the stage and the way visual cues are use and camera positioning was pretty decent.

The big problem is, Sonic Team either forgot they knew how to design decent levels or simple do not care enough to try any more.

If you're referring to Green Hill from Generations, it's worth noting Generations was designed and directed by by a different group of Sonic Team staff. Forces has the same director/lead game designer of the Nintendo-exclusive Sonic games (Storybook series, Colors, Lost World) helming the project.

[Ratcicle King]

39 minutes ago, sonicdudeatdawn said:

a topic with the motivation of spurring more disagreements between lovers of the same franchise, based entirely on early stages we have seen for an upcoming game

how incredibly foolish.

Easy there, Infinite

1 minute ago, Yeow said:

If you're referring to Green Hill from Generations, it's worth noting Generations was designed and directed by by a different group of Sonic Team staff.

Pretty sure he meant Forces' Green Hill.

[Tornado]

Who are they going to teach? Themselves?

[Polkadi~☆]

I like how you pointed out that it's specifically the devs of Sonic Forces who are teaching good level design.

I am actually at a loss for words. Let PagodaWest teach, they've done a better job than Sonic Team could ever wish for.

[JezMM]

Man you guys are gonna be so sorry when you watch the talk and it turns out their entire level design philosophy was 100% intentional and entirely a social experiment in "maximising the rage of nerds on the internet through strategic object placement".

[Jango]

Holy shit, I swear to God I came into this thread thinking it was some joke by a random member.

Sonic Team are you dense?

[Dee Dude]

Pfft, whatever guys. At least they have self respect for their own work.

Even if it is in the wrong.

[JingleBoy]

5 hours ago, Riseodvi said:

The Mania team during the whole presentation:

Where the heck did these Mario renders come from? I've never seen 'em in my life!

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

The reactions are as eye roll worthy as was expected.  *Sigh*

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

This oughta be good.

Maybe their doing it to get responses from fans to see what designs they like and don't like. Yknow, like an experiment. Like this:

Audience: ?????????

Audience: ??????☹??????? 

 

Notice how there are more bad reactions than good.

[The Deleter]

They haven't exactly aired their panel yet or anything, so it probably isn't the exact same and I may have stuff wrong, but I'mma try to predict stuff. Someone tell me how well I do when it airs and is translated :Y

Ladies and gentlemen, a step into the Colors' team probable level design philosophy:

 

 

There are three steps to designing a good Sonic level in our tried-and-true Sonic-Colors designer's method!

First: Plan out the stage and world design!

This step is where we design the world and environment Sonic will traverse, through our brilliantly talented concept art team's visions! Give them an approximation of what kind of stage design you want, and they'll design something absolutely stunning out of it, guaranteed!

Next step: Create the stage and world design in-game!

This is the process where we convert what the artists thought up into an actual game world! Sometimes we add our own ideas into the mix to fill the gaps the artists left us, but overall we try to stay as true to the source material as possible! This is the hardest part of the design process, as we're constructing the entire worlds here, and they're not so easy to change later on down the road. Unfortunately, while these sections of the world inspired by the artists are fantastic to look at, they aren't best suited for engaging gameplay, though...

This is where the final step comes in:

Item and prop placement!

With easy to replicate and manipulate props, such as rings, enemies, spikes, floating platforms, boxes, springs, and dash pads, you can turn a section of a level that would have been somewhat underwhelming, into an engaging experience, filled with variety, and able to be tailored specifically to how you observe playtesters are playing, for an easily adjustable designer's tool! This way, you can achieve maximum efficiency in the design department, while also maintaining the perfect amount of difficulty curves and complexity at all times.

(and as for this, I don't know if they'd make a note of it, but just in case...)

Hidden trade secrets: 2D Sections

Since 2D levels in Sonic games are designed in a foreground, background manner, this means that 2D levels are the most ideal place to use common prop and terrain platforms to manipulate stage design, as the artist's rendition of the world is already accomplished with the background modeling. This is where you can get the most creative in terms of level design, so go wild!

And: Reusing level sections

If you're pressed on time, reusing sections of world design from past levels is a great way to extend content with minimal effort. Simply deck the section out with common props and platforms to change the layout altogether, and you'll have new content for the player to run through with little cost!

 

All this stuff can be seen in Forces, (even down to the infamous crates in 3D and 2D sections composing some blocky, improvised platforming) so I bet this design mentality has stayed with them up to this point, and it'll be their main points when talking throughout the panel. Well, at least for the first points.

 

 

 

 

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Now on the surface this is kinda good as a design mentality, as it does exactly what it sets out to do: Maximizes efficiency, allows for flexability, and allows the tools of design to be in the hands of the designer as much as possible in a large workforce.

The problems I have with it, are two things.

1: Sonic is at his best when his environment and level design work hand in hand, not seperated. Dynamic and natural terrain that, yes, while much harder to implement and manipulate afterwards, lends itself to Sonic's unique identity and complexity as a platformer, not to mention the wonders it does for immersion in the world and such. I believe, while this is a harder feat to pull off, that this direction should be pursued regardless of the extra effort needed, in order to live up to the potential Sonic as a franchise has.

And 2: They don't even succeed in creating complex and engaging level design with these tips and tricks in the first place. What we do have in the form of complexity, such as those bunches of blocks the pink wisp is required to go through, block puzzles with the blue wisp, or the "rotating platform" sections in the 2D screenshots ends up being ill-fitting for Sonic as a platformer, and not even all that complex in execution, failing on both fronts. As a result, the end product tends to feel more lazy than efficiently genius, more often than not. What about these sorts of designs couldn't have been planned ahead in the blank voids that video game testers typically design in, before implementing them naturally into the artists' visions? Why relegate it to post-graphical-production efforts, when there's nothing to be gained outside of less effort, at the cost of the world design?

Maybe Forces' later levels can prove me wrong on this method, but as it stands with Colors and SLW's designs, all this method of design is good for is less effort. This may be a "correct" design decision for lower budget, average quality games to be the best that they can be, but with the workforce SEGA and Sonic Team have at their disposal, I don't think it should apply, honestly.

 

And at what cost?!?

AT

WHAT

COST?!?!?

 

(I reeeeeally don't like these block props, if you couldn't tell, lmao)

[sonicdudeatdawn]

@The Deleter

Is that going to be on the test?

[CleverSonicUsername]

10 hours ago, NoKaine said:

You do know that the Sonic Team working on the games today aren't the same guys who did the Adventure games, right.

You do know that the Sonic Team working on the games today aren't the same guys who did Heroes, right.

You do know that the Sonic Team working on the games today aren't the same guys who did '06, or Secret Rings, or Black Knight, right.

You do know that the Sonic Team working on the games today aren't the same guys who did Unleashed, Colors, Generations-- wait! They are. Eh, some of them.

I mean we can't play the "We can't credit today's Sonic Team for the Genesis games" and the "We can credit today's Sonic Team for '06" at the same time.

No but the Sonic Team of today did do Lost World sooooo