Sonic Forces devs to teach what good level design is about

[The Deleter]

Yeah I think the "two seperate teams" theory was debunked a while ago. In the end it just comes down to whoever is directing or producing the game, and individual level designers.

[Plasme]

1 minute ago, Celestia said:

These pop up in the boost games (mostly the later ones) all the time tho'.

You are right about that, but at it's best, like in Gens Speed Highway, Chemical Plant and Rooftop Run, there's little to no interruptions.

But still, good point

 

[Diogenes]

Wow, look at all those opportunities to make interesting choices to maximize my speed!

I could boost or...not.

Oh, what about this one?

I could boost, or I could use a very slow attack! What a complex system.

[Plasme]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Wow, look at all those opportunities to make interesting choices to maximize my speed!

I could boost or...not.

Oh, what about this one?

I could boost, or I could use a very slow attack! What a complex system.

Oh hohoho, I'm going to use a pathetically simplistic example to strawman the entire Boost system. Oh look at me, how clever!

NO! WE AREN'T PLAYING THAT GAME TONIGHT!

That's a really simplistic example you've cherry picked. There are loads of examples in Generations of Boost Gauge reservation, drifting, risk/reward boosting, quicker platforming routes. Loads of examples, Seaside Hill, Sky Sanc, Crisis City. Loads and loads!

So yeah, Boost is great!

[Diogenes]

So many examples that I'm sure you're just overwhelmed when trying to pick which ones to mention specifically, I'm sure.

[Celestia]

Boost isn't very complex at all. Hell, most of what makes it fun to people who do like it is how it's relatively simple, focused more on reaction time, brief shortcuts, and a more arcadey feel overall. I think developers of boost-style Sonic games could stand to embrace all that, even.

The issue is that these are supposed to be main installments, not spinoffs, and people have a standard for what a main Sonic game should involve. I'm a fan of the modern games but I feel the same way. If the boost had remained a side thing like the Rush titles I don't think anyone who dislikes it would have any reason to complain.

[Badnik Mechanic]

23 minutes ago, Plasme said:

 That's a really simplistic example you've cherry picked. There are loads of examples in Generations of Boost Gauge reservation, drifting, risk/reward boosting, quicker platforming routes. Loads of examples, Seaside Hill, Sky Sanc, Crisis City. Loads and loads!

And how many of those do not involve using the boost or the jump button just after the boost?

Please provide specific examples.

[Milo]

16 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Yeah I think the "two seperate teams" theory was debunked a while ago. In the end it just comes down to whoever is directing or producing the game, and individual level designers.

It's technically true if we're speaking strictly about the designers/directors, . The Nintendo-exclusive Sonic Team games (Storybook series, Colors, Lost World) share the same director/lead game designer since Secret Rings, and have had a consistent crew of designers since Black Knight. Meanwhile each of the multiplatform games (Sonic 2006, Unleashed, Generations) had their own director and designers (outside a select few) separate from each other and the Nintendo-exclusive titles.

[Cornelius Fudge]

31 minutes ago, Plasme said:

It's far more complex because it creates better pacing and complements the speedruning nature of the game. Do I jump here, boost here, drift here, all to maximise your speed and get a top time. All tied in to core player mechanics.

It's the true essence of Sonic but without the boring pitfalls, slow platforming and waiting.

It's the true glory of Sonic.

You act as if you haven't even played Mania. Mania managed to accomplish this perfectly without having shallow gameplay design that literally plays the game for you. Actually, I think it has the most dense and engaging level design I've ever seen in a Sonic game as of yet.

 

[Dr. Detective]

4 hours ago, Celestia said:

Boost isn't very complex at all. Hell, most of what makes it fun to people who do like it is how it's relatively simple, focused more on reaction time, brief shortcuts, and a more arcadey feel overall. I think developers of boost-style Sonic games could stand to embrace all that, even.

The issue is that these are supposed to be main installments, not spinoffs, and people have a standard for what a main Sonic game should involve. I'm a fan of the modern games but I feel the same way. If the boost had remained a side thing like the Rush titles I don't think anyone who dislikes it would have any reason to complain.

Yeah. I'm not really ashamed to admit that I still find the Boost gameplay to be fun. It was incredibly thrilling and shocking that it was even possible to get Sonic to go as fast as he could in the cutscenes through the gameplay and seeing the robots bounce across the screen and crash into one another when you rammed into them in Unleashed still puts a smile on my face. Levels being simple like this doesn't bother me a bit.

At the same time, it's not something I feel the need to argue for or against. As someone who grew up playing Adventure 2: Battle and Heroes, moving back to a more steady range of play wouldn't faze me at all. So long as it's fun, I truly don't care.

That's probably why whenever I see people throwing a fit over the Forces gameplay I don't really have too much of a reaction either way. I don't entirely agree with the negative side but I don't feel too strongly about the fact that I'm okay with it to defend it because I know deep down that if they did what you guys asked for I'd still enjoy it alright.

I'm truly not asking for a lot. Which is why it's shocking whenever they do manage to make it unfun for me like with Colors or Lost World.

[FlameStream]

It's one thing to not like a team's project. It's another to ridicule people for hard work and knowledge sharing in good faith.

What I just witnessed here is simply shameful and very toxic.

[Tracker_TD]

3 minutes ago, FlameStream said:

It's one thing to not like a team's project. It's another to ridicule people for hard work and knowledge sharing in good faith.

What I just witnessed here is simply shameful and very toxic.

If I tried to teach people like, how to make music, I'd probably get ridiculed. Because I suck at making music. 

Aint "shameful" or "toxic" to point out the obvious.

[FlameStream]

I won't derail this topic any further than by stating this. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

I believe that anything done with good faith shouldn't be squandered. You state that you would probably be ridiculed if you attempted to teach music. Certainly, it might be the case, but don't you think this is actually a problem? Instead, there can be other ways to follow up the situation. in a more positive matter and respectful matter. But this is not what I've seen here; It's total trashing. I normally can keep my cool on negative stuff, but what I've seen here really hit me hard. I don't think that this kind of interaction creates a good community to interact with, or pass by.

[ChikaBoing]

17 hours ago, The Deleter said:

Has anyone recorded this? It was supposed to happen today, but I don't think there's been any live streams for it...

Yeah, nothing, I follow the JP Sega twitter and they did link some CEDEC stuff on NicoNico. But I guess it's closed doors for some things

[The Deleter]

So I found and accessed the presentation contents. Turns out it's pretty basic stuff, no where near as overarching as I thought it'd be. Plus, it was being presented by a relatively beginner game designer, so it was basically being marketed as an entry-level presentation.

However... the "contents" only include pretty basic and fun power point slides, which do better as screenshot material for me tbh, and now that I've read up on the designer's bio, I really want to see how the presentation relates to her story now, so I'm unsatisfied, lol

On 9/2/2017 at 0:00 PM, ChikaBoing said:

Yeah, nothing, I follow the JP Sega twitter and they did link some CEDEC stuff on NicoNico. But I guess it's closed doors for some things

Got any link to it? Some people on here have Nico Nico accounts, I'm pretty sure, so they may be able to view it and/or share it with us.

Also I'd link the PDF the contents came in, but I'm kinda stuck figuring out how to work them, for now. Don't even know how to extract images from them, tbh...

[The Deleter]

Here are all the contents of the PDF in order, finally:

Spoiler

Enjoy!

[Thigolf]

18 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Here are all the contents of the PDF in order, finally:

 

 

Those three in particular just kill me. 

 

The first pictures are instances in which the player has to actually do something, anything - in the first example, you at least have to jump over/attack the Egg Robos, in the other two, you have to actually, hold onto your butts, manually jump up objects. You have to do, you know, platforming.

And their idea to improve things is, in the case of the latter two, mindlessly running to the springs and hammering the homing attack button to make your way up, stripping away all the platforming in a fucking platformer, or, in the first example, do nothing at ALL until you hit the springs. 

How are those improvements?! Are those supposed to be negative examples? How is this considered better or even good?!

Just... Sonic Team, man. 

[Guest]

They actually are level design improvements. Like yeah you do platforming in those former pictures but it's all really bad platforming level design. Good Sonic level design has fun platforming without making it feel like you're stopped in your tracks. There needs to be a good flow to it. Just "you actually need to jump!" doesn't make it good level design.

Problem is that they replaced the bad platforming with the player just... not having to do much at all. Which is better than badly designed platforming bits but is still pretty bad.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

2 minutes ago, TimmiT said:

They actually are level design improvements. Like yeah you do platforming in those former pictures but it's all really bad platforming level design. Good Sonic level design has fun platforming without making it feel like you're stopped in your tracks. There needs to be a good flow to it. Just "you actually need to jump!" doesn't make it good level design.

Problem is that they replaced the bad platforming with the player just... not having to do much at all. Which is better than badly designed platforming bits but is still pretty bad.

Is it, though? The platforming was rudimentary, but their "improvement" just encourages mindless speeding. This in turn makes even the best platforming feel like you have to stop in your tracks. 

[Indigo Rush]

Good grief 

Neither scenarios look good

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Is it, though? The platforming was rudimentary, but their "improvement" just encourages mindless speeding. This in turn makes even the best platforming feel like you have to stop in your tracks. 

Mindless speeding is better than frustratingly having to awkwardly jump over shit that breaks the flow of the level design. (EDIT: I mean, again, it's still bad. It's just not as bad as awkward bad platforming level design)

If you want to see how platforming in a Sonic game can be done good without breaking the flow of level design play Sonic Mania.

[JosepHenry]

Well...

Forces is pretty much the first Sonic interactive movie.

[Blue Blood]

Neither scenario is any good. "Stop, jump and go" as the extent of platforming isn't good design, and nor is "the game makes you jump automatically".

The issue here is two-fold. Firstly, we're looking at an entirely isolated, very small scene - with this information alone, we don't know what else the level design could be offering (i.e. pretend you haven't seen the level in full elsewhere). And secondly, you can see that the game barely had any reason to be in 3D. All of the players possible actions could be recreated in 2D - 3D adds nothing to this equation.

Neither platforming design on show is particularly good, but I can't honestly say that one is bad either. They both work and would be pretty negligible and perfectly fine if they were alongside more engaging design. 

[The Deleter]

We got some translated panels now, thanks to TwilightZoney on Twitter... Two hours before I posted those images. Lol, guess I was too slow...

 

 

Also, there's this :V :

 

[Badnik Mechanic]

9 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

 

Yeah the spikes 

So what did they do to this part of the stage?

They turned it into a 'boost to win' segment.

See.... they're right with the 'there is nothing here' and they're right with that stupidly big spike trap, it's way too big and 'unnatural' (partly because Sonic's standard jump would barely make it).

The change to add the robots makes it more natural, but it's just the opposite extreme, whilst the player now has a 'natural' looking obstacle your choices are preety much boost and... well that's it... yeah you could homing attack them if you wanted, or jump on them but... you really going to do that for every encounter like this?