Sonic Mania: Sequel Speculation (Spoilers)

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

5 hours ago, Jango said:

He is, but he is very associated to the bad/odd decisions too.

And your proof for such is? I mean, you've been going at it quite bald-faced. Like, returning zones in Mania? Where's even the notable detriment in that? Not to mention how it was actually suggested by Iizuka as a means of extending the game, and the new twists were fun to them anyway.

If you're going to try and suggest that Iizuka somehow damaged the game on those terms, then objectively speaking, I observe that you may just have it out for the guy for some reason illogical or otherwise.

[BaronGrackle]

On 5/3/2018 at 7:51 AM, superman43 said:

And you may ask why original zones won´t work... Hm... You have to encontain it in "Classic" dimension. Mania used 4 existing locations and for a new game you will need a new location. This may fail as Sonic 4 did.

People can speculate, but we really have no idea which location(s) house Studiopolis, Press Garden, and Mirage Saloon.

Some of you might be tempted to respond "Grackle, we know they're on X Island because of cutscene transitions" or some such, but we really don't. Especially with the Ruby involved. Not unless the developers told us and I just missed that part.

EDIT: Seriously, it goes from Stardust Speedway to Hydrocity Zone, then later Lava Reef Zone to Metallic Madness. But I don't hear any of you say Angel Island and Little Planet are the same place.

[superman43]

58 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

People can speculate, but we really have no idea which location(s) house Studiopolis, Press Garden, and Mirage Saloon.

Some of you might be tempted to respond "Grackle, we know they're on X Island because of cutscene transitions" or some such, but we really don't. Especially with the Ruby involved. Not unless the developers told us and I just missed that part.

EDIT: Seriously, it goes from Stardust Speedway to Hydrocity Zone, then later Lava Reef Zone to Metallic Madness. But I don't hear any of you say Angel Island and Little Planet are the same place.

Seriously, THAT would be weird.

[Jango]

9 hours ago, Jovahexeon Sonic Heroes said:

And your proof for such is? I mean, you've been going at it quite bald-faced. Like, returning zones in Mania? Where's even the notable detriment in that? Not to mention how it was actually suggested by Iizuka as a means of extending the game, and the new twists were fun to them anyway.

If you're going to try and suggest that Iizuka somehow damaged the game on those terms, then objectively speaking, I observe that you may just have it out for the guy for some reason illogical or otherwise.

Not exactly, but we both don't know, as we don't work at SEGA (neither our uncles ). The info we got is that Iizuka came with the idea of bringing old zones back yet again when Christian made his pitch (which at first were just a couple of original zones), instead of greenliting a whole game made of original ones. Sure, maybe he was STILL insecure about it, but now it's crystal clear that the Mania Team is capable of going this far, the new zones were the best part of Sonic Mania, every review says it so. 

I'm whiling to bet it wasn't that much insecurity, I mean, they're being re-hashing the same zones and aesthetics for years now... It's past time for new NEW stuff, people are tired... If that's what Iizuka wanted, he did it. We are in safe ground now.

Also, I don't know how much this has to do with Iizuka, but only putting 2 guys to design a main series game, one of them being a newbie?? Well, we all saw what that lead to..

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 hours ago, Jango said:

Not exactly, but we both don't know, as we don't work at SEGA

ON the contrary, one of us has done their research.

Remember, you claimed that Sonic Mania's good will was all on SEGA of America. And I've shown evidence that Iizuka did actually facilitate that, not to mention that he's heavily involved in SEGA of America which contradicted your claim that he only did bad and wasn't involved in any of the good.

Funnily enough, you know the really kooky and crazy stuff like the Death Egg Robot showing up in Green Hill, something fans took interest in, that was suggested by Iizuka himself.

3 hours ago, Jango said:

The info we got is that Iizuka came with the idea of bringing old zones back yet again when Christian made his pitch (which at first were just a couple of original zones), instead of greenliting a whole game made of original ones.

That's an oversimplification you're viewing the facts through.

Recalled correctly, the game while originally pitched as an original game was pitched to be much smaller and shorter. And it was going to be bundled with Taxman's already existing remasters. While you put it as if Iizuka just wanted old zones back, that couldn't be further from the truth.

In actuality, Iizuka offered his own pitch that made for a great compromise. The team got to have their original levels, but they also included classic and familiar ones, not even the same, but "remixed".

On an objective level, this allowed the game to be much bigger, and heck, it helped take some loads off the Mania team's shoulders. Given how pre-exisiting levels in need of re-tooling were far less a strain than an entire game. Gave us more content, and hell, the Mania team were given keen free reign over deciding the order of them which helped allow for the sequence. And even pick the levels themselves.

I get that it's not what you want, but honestly, the results and reception speak for themselves on how this looks to have been the better option.

In fact, going off of this article of interview with Whitehead: https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/a-chat-with-fan-turned-creator-of-sonic-mania-w501581

It sounds like Iizuka and Sonic Team were actually quite helpful to the Mania Team, which just lends even more credence to the idea that SEGA of Japan running Sonic Team into the ground is more the problem and trigger of Sonic Team's output being inconsistent.

3 hours ago, Jango said:

the new zones were the best part of Sonic Mania, every review says it so. 

Got a source for that? Especially one to negate people gushing about the remixed past zones, or gripes with some original zones, especially Titanic Monarch? Again, you can't come into this debate wit a flat black and white approach like that, without even evidence.

Also, remember, your stance is that

On 5/4/2018 at 7:56 AM, Jango said:

I still think it was more a struck of luck rather than an honest "we believe in these guys". Christian worked with SEGA before, yes, but never in partnership with Sonic Team. It was all SEGA of America. The moment they added Iizuka to the equation, we got the same old nostalgia pandering he believes is the right one:

Which despite, already being wrong considering how Whitehead een mentions how he interacted with Iizuka as early as 2011 concerning the Sonic CD Taxman port ,

is also negated when you actually look into how Iizuka did not use nostalgia pandering as the driving force behind it. I mean, it's Whitehead's word against yours.

With excerpts from the interview with Christian Whitehead in question, such as,

Quote

There’s a spirit with the whole team - both Sega and ourselves - where it’s just been a lot of fun to make. The two bosses that I couldn’t imagine us getting approval on to begin with were the Mean Bean Machine Boss in Chemical Plant Zone. We didn’t just want to put it in there. I was having trouble thinking of a novel boss for the Zone. We had already made a souped-up version of the original boss, so we needed something else. I just thought, “Wouldn’t it be funny if we made the boss just Puyo Puyo?” I thought Iizuka-san would just immediately veto it. But he said, “Let’s look into it.” And it made sense creatively for the game.

It’s funny, because I’m sure there are Sonic fans out there who say “Yeah, we want Sonic to be serious, and to convey a feeling of genuine threat.” Meanwhile, we’ve got Eggman riding a cartoon train. When you have a game that has to convey its story through sprites moving on a screen, going overboard with fun things is what makes it come to life.

or like

Quote

Our initial plan for the sequence of Zones - pretty much none of those made it in. I wasn’t all that disappointed, though, because there’s so many things we could have done. What we ended up with made sense. Both our side and Sega’s side pitched levels, and initially, we thought we were going to put the Zones in chronological order, but Iizuka-san was fine with us mixing it up. There are certain levels that are fan-favorites, but in one instance, we put in a Zone that fans generally dislike, but we did something completely different with it, and it seems like people are liking it. Picking a level that we weren’t so enamored with from the original games gave us more room to do our own thing with it. Overall, we had to balance the stage tropes - there couldn’t be too many water levels, or city levels.

Well, needless to say, I rest my case. Whitehead's statements thoroughly contradict your vision of some oppressive and dominating Iizuka and Sonic Team,  enforcing nostalgia and supposedly weakening Mania as a result. In actuality, they collaborated well enough, showed good faith in each other, and the result is the masterpiece of Mania as seen fit.

Again Jang, when the facts are up and analyzed, I'm  not seeing what you're seeing on this.

3 hours ago, Jango said:

Also, I don't know how much this has to do with Iizuka,

Then why bother potentially pinning the blame on him without substantial evidence? It just risks ending up being conjecture.

[SKSpawn]

A sequel surely has to include Mighty and Ray from the get-go, right? Seems a bit of a dick move to make them DLC again. They also really should work Amy Rose in there and at least one other character, though I can't think of who...maybe just stick in Metal Sonic? Or, as mentioned elsewhere, the Chaotix?

I wouldn't mind seeing classic levels remixed again as long as they're different. Seriously, how many times do we have to play Green Hill and Chemical Plant? How about using more obscure Sonic 1 zones, like Starlight Zone or Spring Yard Zone, and zones like Hilltop, Sandopolis, or Ice Cap?

Simply doing the same thing but a bit more HD and a bit fancier would be good but a bit disappointing; I like my sequels to be everything the first one was and more so I'd like to see the sequel be a bit bigger, with either those awesome level transitions carried over or Sonic CD/Sonic Mania Adventures-esque anime cutscenes scattered throughout the game, and be a standalone experience. One of the few flaws of Sonic Mania was the weird ending that kind of ended the game on a flat, "what the hell just happened?", note so I'd rather they put in a definitive ending for the sequel. Also, while I'd like to see the Hard-Boiled Heavies come back so Sonic can finish them off, maybe have Eggman reassert control over them and be the final boss next time?

 

[Skull Leader]

The thing with characters for a sequel is that as Mania Plus already is with Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Ray and Mighty, there really is not that much substantial variety as the game already has four other characters that do everything Sonic does and despite the extra abilities, still feel awfully similar to each other.

Then there's the other characters like Amy (who over time became one of the most recognizable faces of the franchise) as well as the Chaotix, who'd risk being eclipsed by the likes of Tails and Knuckles, even when someone like Amy can actually deliver a more unique experience if she were based after Advance, where her hammer abilities were the focus instead of rolling/spindashing.

Personally I would prefer for a sequel to give Amy a co-protagonist role (and include things like where her Piko hammer came from), as well as featuring the Chaotix too, but with a sub-plot of their own that adds up to the main campaign. Tails and Knuckles being abscent could be justified by having Eggman take his chance during the time when C!Sonic went to Modern's dimension, striking and capturing those two while preparing to ambush Classic Sonic on his return. 

Maybe in the future, have Tails, Knuckles and perhaps Mighty and Ray return as DLC's.

 

[superman43]

6 hours ago, SKSpawn said:

I wouldn't mind seeing classic levels remixed again as long as they're different. Seriously, how many times do we have to play Green Hill and Chemical Plant? How about using more obscure Sonic 1 zones, like Starlight Zone or Spring Yard Zone, and zones like Hilltop, Sandopolis, or Ice Cap?

All are OK, but one. Hilltop hell no. Rather Mystic Cave. As shown in Mania (I don´t know if due to the Phantom Ruby or what ?) the previouse Eggman-built things are kind of intact. Soo... maybe redone Scrap Brain Zone ?

[Salamander]

52 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

The thing with characters for a sequel is that as Mania Plus already is with Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Ray and Mighty, there really is not that much substantial variety as the game already has four other characters that do everything Sonic does and despite the extra abilities, still feel awfully similar to each other.

Then there's the other characters like Amy (who over time became one of the most recognizable faces of the franchise) as well as the Chaotix, who'd risk being eclipsed by the likes of Tails and Knuckles, even when someone like Amy can actually deliver a more unique experience if she were based after Advance, where her hammer abilities were the focus instead of rolling/spindashing.

Personally I would prefer for a sequel to give Amy a co-protagonist role (and include things like where her Piko hammer came from), as well as featuring the Chaotix too, but with a sub-plot of their own that adds up to the main campaign. Tails and Knuckles being abscent could be justified by having Eggman take his chance during the time when C!Sonic went to Modern's dimension, striking and capturing those two while preparing to ambush Classic Sonic on his return. 

Maybe in the future, have Tails, Knuckles and perhaps Mighty and Ray return as DLC's.

 

I am similarly of an opinion that, as the number of potential playable characters increases, the value and viability of having all of them in every single title decreases.  Not every character needs to be playable in every game.  It's perfectly reasonable to swap them out now and again, both for the simple sake of variety and to better showcase whichever characters are most in focus in that particular game.  Consider, for instance, the way the five-character Advance series bowed out in favour of the two-character Rush series; and nor were the Rush titles any the worse for it.

[Milo]

5 hours ago, FFWF said:

Consider, for instance, the way the five-character Advance series bowed out in favour of the two-character Rush series; and nor were the Rush titles any the worse for it.

The Rush titles (and their derivatives) had far more streamlined and simplistic gameplay than practically any 2D Sonic game that didn't follow that formula, let alone Advance; playable characters with diverse platforming mechanics either took a massive backseat or weren't even considered in core mechanics, level design, and the general focus of the game design. This is evident with how Sonic and Blaze have virtually the exact same gameplay outside of some secondary mechanics (like Sonic's HA/air dash and Blaze's hover). I wouldn't really use Rush as a reference to use to support rotating in/out playable characters across various games.

[Multikaris]

On 5/3/2018 at 8:27 PM, Jango said:

Your point being...? That he's a liar? I think it's a fact that no one wanted that Classic Sonic, the shallow and automated mess Sonic Team calls "Classic". It should've stayed in Generations, anyways. Hopefully a Mania sequel is more down to SEGA of America than Japan or Sonic Team. So I'm still kinda optimist.

Maybe he changed his mind, which is why people are still hopeful for SA3 and whatnot? 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Maybe he changed his mind, which is why people are still hopeful for SA3 and whatnot? 

Considering how I've provided evidence that debunks Jango's claims regarding Iizuka thoroughly,  I think we can rule out him simply changing his mind,  let alone him being in charge of that stuff either. 

[Jango]

It didn't debunked anything tho'. You provided interview and what not, but we don't know if everything is as black and white, neither mine or yours side. I still blame him for the bad decisions. At best I agree that Iizuka is very involved with SEGA of America, which well.. wasn't he for years?

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

49 minutes ago, Jango said:

but we don't know if everything is as black and white, neither mine or yours side.

You went for the black and white angle of things. I didn't. I did but research, and that even includes words from the team themselves. 

Again, there's no point trying to blame Iizuka in such a conspiracy theory manner with your lack of evidence it's pointless in that bit. Opinions are fine sure,  but in cases like these,  have something to back them up if you want to insist on them.

Gives without saying,  but  nothing you've suggested lines up with what's actually happened or been reported. Unless you're also going to suggest that Whitehead and his team are liars too. 

 

49 minutes ago, Jango said:

At best I agree that Iizuka is very involved with SEGA of America, which well.. wasn't he for years?

You indirectly and incorrectly claimed earlier he wasn't as well. Back when you complimented Sega of America,  before I pointed out to you that he's the VP of sorts there. 

I don't see what point you're trying to make with that either.

51 minutes ago, Jango said:

It didn't debunked anything tho'.

Well actually, it did negate your claim that Iizuka wanted only nostalgic bits.

It did negate your ideal that Iizuka weakened the project, by the very fact that he only allowed it be even bigger than it would've been originally. And so on so forth. Yes, it pretty much tackled the main quadrants of your assumption.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Classic's gameplay in Gens praised by critics?

IGN:

Quote

Watching old-school Sonic zip around his new beautifully reimagined Rube Goldberg-ian playgrounds and MC Escher-esque mazes is pure delight, with SEGA finally managing to perfectly recapture what made this franchise so fun to begin with after years of missed attempts. Classic Sonic's new 3D character model (based on his original sprite-base origins) has an adorable, almost claymation-like appearance. You speed through stages, traverse careful platforming sections, and break open item boxes as if it were 1991 and you're still going nuts over "blast processing" and Jaleel White's voice acting.

...

Neither Sonic is perfect however. At times the Classic version can feel floaty, and his Modern counterpart can stop dead in his tracks with every minor error. But these feel like small complaints compared to the exhilaration of playing a Sonic game that never stops the action to make you battle with stretchy arms. 

Gamespot: 

Quote

Blending the tried-and-true classic 2D Sonic gameplay of the '90s with a refined, tighter version of Sonic's recent 3D jaunts yields a nostalgia-laden experience that favors blazing speed over schlocky gimmicks. When you add high replay value and a heap of extra goodies to that winning formula, you get one of the better Sonic games in recent memory.

...

Playing as the original Sonic has you zipping through the undulating side-scrolling stages to collect gold rings, stomp foes, and navigate tricky platforming sections in 2D in a similar manner to the old-school games. Armed with just the spin dash and a need for speed, old Sonic brings back a great classic vibe.

There's other reviews but considering IGN/Gamespot are the biggest review sites, and notorious for their usual despising of Sonic games, like even they praised it. Generations was the first Sonic game I actually saw the announce trailer on the first night and I followed the hype from start to finish. And I remember clearly a lot of praise going to the Classic gameplay in the game, especially compared to Sonic 4's atrocious gameplay.

Forces is another story altogether but trying to pretend "no one wanted classic in generations, no one liked classic in generations!" is outright silly. The reason why Classic gets regularly mocked now is he got screwed up hard in Forces and that was right after we had Mania for a comparison point, and even comparing Classic's gameplay in Gens to Forces, literally everything in terms of gameplay and music is completely downgraded and made more terrible to the point that Gens!Classic and Forces!Classic might as well be two different beasts altogether.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Yeah, Classic in Gens while not his old physics self was still fun to play as in Generations and got overall received well as such. It's foolhardy to go on the notion that supposedly he was universally reviled like he is in Forces.

Also helped that his levels were keen themselves with the set-pieces.

[superman43]

5 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Classic's gameplay in Gens praised by critics?

IGN:

Gamespot: 

There's other reviews but considering IGN/Gamespot are the biggest review sites, and notorious for their usual despising of Sonic games, like even they praised it. Generations was the first Sonic game I actually saw the announce trailer on the first night and I followed the hype from start to finish. And I remember clearly a lot of praise going to the Classic gameplay in the game, especially compared to Sonic 4's atrocious gameplay.

Forces is another story altogether but trying to pretend "no one wanted classic in generations, no one liked classic in generations!" is outright silly. The reason why Classic gets regularly mocked now is he got screwed up hard in Forces and that was right after we had Mania for a comparison point, and even comparing Classic's gameplay in Gens to Forces, literally everything in terms of gameplay and music is completely downgraded and made more terrible to the point that Gens!Classic and Forces!Classic might as well be two different beasts altogether.

 

5 hours ago, Jovahexeon Sonic Heroes said:

Yeah, Classic in Gens while not his old physics self was still fun to play as in Generations and got overall received well as such. It's foolhardy to go on the notion that supposedly he was universally reviled like he is in Forces.

Also helped that his levels were keen themselves with the set-pieces.

Well, I see the reason why Classic got praised despite different physics is... well, designers did a great job with reimagining the stages. It gave a very good answer to how the Sonic´s world looks in 3D. Only ehm... nitpick... about the gameplay of Classic Sonic is maaaybe slight confusion in that well-made level design.

[Muscles Maximum]

Sonic fans are the only ones who care how spot on Classic Sonic's physics are. No one else would ever notice. Everyone back then was going on about how Classic Sonic felt exactly like the genesis games. Clearly they were trying to pass it off as a 1:1 recreation of the genesis physics.

Everyone loved Sonic 4 when it came out except fans. No one at large cares about how Sonic feels.

[Diogenes]

I don't believe that. In a platformer, how the character controls and moves is one of the most important aspects of the game. Most people may not be able to fully articulate the differences between the games, but I can't believe that they don't notice them on some level or care how the games play.

I think more than anything else people got caught up in how they looked like classic Sonic games. 4 and Gens Classic are sidescrolling platformers with a lot of classic Sonic elements and no overt gimmicks getting in the way, so at a glance they seem like they're the same as the actual classic games. That association might last long enough for a reviewer's limited time with the game or a casual player's single playthrough, but it doesn't hold up in the long term.

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

I don't believe that. In a platformer, how the character controls and moves is one of the most important aspects of the game. Most people may not be able to fully articulate the differences between the games, but I can't believe that they don't notice them on some level or care how the games play.

I think more than anything else people got caught up in how they looked like classic Sonic games. 4 and Gens Classic are sidescrolling platformers with a lot of classic Sonic elements and no overt gimmicks getting in the way, so at a glance they seem like they're the same as the actual classic games. That association might last long enough for a reviewer's limited time with the game or a casual player's single playthrough, but it doesn't hold up in the long term.

Maybe this is why the previous handheld Sonic entries ended up forgotten (and hence why the likes of Blaze and the Wisps were thrown under the “shitty friends” bus shortly)? Whether they are forgotten gems or forgettable games is in the eye of the beholder for now, though the latter seems to be becoming more prominent a view in light of Mania. Mania, regardless, has taken a few elements from the Advance series, but left Rush, Rivals, Pocket Adventure, the handheld versions of the colors-era games, and 4 in the dustbin so far. Time will tell if Blaze even makes a comeback. I hope the Classic steam are able to ask for permission for her to end up in the Classic world.

[tailsBOOM!]

On 5/12/2018 at 7:46 AM, SKSpawn said:

A sequel surely has to include Mighty and Ray from the get-go, right? Seems a bit of a dick move to make them DLC again. They also really should work Amy Rose in there and at least one other character, though I can't think of who...maybe just stick in Metal Sonic? Or, as mentioned elsewhere, the Chaotix?

I wouldn't mind seeing classic levels remixed again as long as they're different. Seriously, how many times do we have to play Green Hill and Chemical Plant? How about using more obscure Sonic 1 zones, like Starlight Zone or Spring Yard Zone, and zones like Hilltop, Sandopolis, or Ice Cap?

Simply doing the same thing but a bit more HD and a bit fancier would be good but a bit disappointing; I like my sequels to be everything the first one was and more so I'd like to see the sequel be a bit bigger, with either those awesome level transitions carried over or Sonic CD/Sonic Mania Adventures-esque anime cutscenes scattered throughout the game, and be a standalone experience. One of the few flaws of Sonic Mania was the weird ending that kind of ended the game on a flat, "what the hell just happened?", note so I'd rather they put in a definitive ending for the sequel. Also, while I'd like to see the Hard-Boiled Heavies come back so Sonic can finish them off, maybe have Eggman reassert control over them and be the final boss next time?

 

Tiara!

[MainJP]

26 minutes ago, tailsBOOM! said:

Tiara!

Isn't there some legal issues with Tiara?

[HywelAtTheMoon]

Witchcart! Probably the only antagonist I can think of from the classic era. 

Maybe Honey from Sonic the Fighters, but that's a long shot. 

[MainJP]

1 hour ago, HywelAtTheMoon said:

Witchcart! Probably the only antagonist I can think of from the classic era. 

Maybe Honey from Sonic the Fighters, but that's a long shot. 

There’s also Great Battle Kukku.

Honey appearing in any capacity would be great.

[Jango]

On 14/05/2018 at 9:05 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Classic's gameplay in Gens praised by critics?

IGN:

Gamespot: 

There's other reviews but considering IGN/Gamespot are the biggest review sites, and notorious for their usual despising of Sonic games, like even they praised it. Generations was the first Sonic game I actually saw the announce trailer on the first night and I followed the hype from start to finish. And I remember clearly a lot of praise going to the Classic gameplay in the game, especially compared to Sonic 4's atrocious gameplay.

Forces is another story altogether but trying to pretend "no one wanted classic in generations, no one liked classic in generations!" is outright silly. The reason why Classic gets regularly mocked now is he got screwed up hard in Forces and that was right after we had Mania for a comparison point, and even comparing Classic's gameplay in Gens to Forces, literally everything in terms of gameplay and music is completely downgraded and made more terrible to the point that Gens!Classic and Forces!Classic might as well be two different beasts altogether.

You are not wrong. We were mostly all blind by the hype, myself included, but all things considered, I don't find shame in that, I'll explain why. Well, not fully blind, I remember every single topic and comment about the jump, the bouncing, the rolling... But I guess since it was too long without an official game with the chubby little bastard, it was easier to overlook some of these stuff. I was one of the people that outright hated Sonic 4 from the get-go. I couldn't stand looking at Modern Sonic's janky model running on soap in not-Green-Hill, not-Labyrinth, not-Metropolis... and that music... Ugh. That was not how the Mega Drive sounded, neither what it could do, sorry Jun. Beating a dead horse aside, I could see a genuine effort in Generations, in every aspect: presentation, visuals, music and in both gameplays actually. Modern Sonic gameplay was at its best IMO. The drift finally worked! No white wisps bullshit, it had a ton of fun skills, the levels actually had more paths to take, I remember when Seaside Hill and Sky Sanctuary were praised as best Modern Sonic levels ever. And they're still pretty good today.

And Classic, despite its shortcomings regarding the physics, was still very creative and fun. Sky Sanctuary again, was one great level. No level ever got even close to replicate a classic experience, the physics were even scripted sometimes (that ramp in Seaside Hill ), but it was 110% better than the recent Sonic 4. 

I keep scratching my head and wondering sometimes how Forces did the same stuff Generations did before it, but made it worse. Classic is 90% more automated, to the point of being laughable, while in Gens most the automation was well implemented or at least well masked. The levels in Forces are also much less creative and baren. Gens had fun shit going on, the truck in City Escape, the wheel in Seaside Hill, climbing the clock tower and getting on top of Eggman's blimp. Forces had stuff happening in the background... Yay? The jump felt a bit off in Gens, no bouncing or much weight, but in Forces it's just waaaaaaay off. Funnily enough, the spin dash is actually better, go figure.

I'm rambling here. Thing is, despite Generations' shortcomings, I can easily see a genuine effort by the team. Clear focus in direction, improvements to the boost formula, great visuals and sound design, great presentation and a well masked Classic Sonic at least. It is a good game. I can't see it as average or even bad. There are things that make it a better game than Forces by default.  

In the light of Sonic Mania, Forces was caught in a Sonic 4 situation, at least one third of it. You have another game to compare that does it way better, to the point of making one basically unnecessary.