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Sonic Mania: Sequel Speculation (Spoilers)

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6 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

Considering their stance on Mighty and Ray being kept out of the Modern branch due to being classic-only, I doubt they'll ever consider letting modern-only characters into the classic branch. 

Considering I prefer Amy's classic design i don't mind too much. Now if only they would actually use her -_-

4 hours ago, FFWF said:

Of course, there would be no problem if we could only have a 2D arm rather than a specifically classic arm, but that would be too easy.

I agree and disagree. I agree that 2D shouldn't be limited to Classic only and that Classic shouldn't be limited to 2D only. I disagree in that I enjoy the opportunities to explore the franchise in a way that was abandoned with Adventure as Yuji Naka over corrected the ship in his attempts to remove the cutesy reputation that he felt Sonic was acquiring.

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 I would some to hear some of your guys thoughts on a sequel to Sonic Mania. I have mine but I would like to hear your guys thoughts on them. You can also add on some custom zones so that it isn't just about having nolstogia.

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5 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I don't just want new zones. I want new zone motifs, which is something Mania's original zones excelled at. A TV studio? A wild-west town? A printing press? These are really fresh ideas that the series hasn't explored before, and I loved seeing them!

So yeah, I think it's important to keep that sense of freshness going. You can call a zone Emerald Hill, or Seaside Hill, or Splash Hill, but at the end of the day, it's still obviously derivative of Green Hill Zone. Same for Casino Night/Park/Paradise/Street, and so on. Give us new zones that feel like new zones! And I'm not saying that revisiting level motifs is never good, but they should be used sparingly in my opinion.

Now that you say I never seen that much of an original idea. Maybe they should do something similar to a forest like that one scrapped Sonic 2 level.

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The drop dash was an amazing idea that, while small in the grand scheme of the whole game, completely changed the fabric of Sonic's playstyle for the better, to the point that even Sonic Forces shamelessly stole it before it had actually released. I feel like that's the approach the series should be taking ultimately - tiny, incremental tweaks that keeps what's familiar about the previous games and adds new twists on it, as opposed to reinventing the wheel or adding new moves simply for addition's sake.

Wouldn't hurt if all the other characters got their own "true" endings too. I know Sonic's the main character and all, but it always bothered me that he was the only one where collecting all the emeralds actually mattered.

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6 minutes ago, XTRAordinaryZG said:

Now that you say I never seen that much of an original idea. Maybe they should do something similar to a forest like that one scrapped Sonic 2 level.

I mean, of course there've been original ideas in the series. Every classic game has implemented at least some new zone motifs. But the reusing of zone themes has been a recurring practice since the beginning, and it got a lot more pronounced around the time of the modern 2D games; Titles like Sonic Pocket Adventure and Sonic Advance retreaded a lot of the old Genesis beats, and Sonic 4 was probably the most rehashy of them all.

Again, I want to emphasize, putting a creative spin on a familiar level type isn't inherently bad. I'm not against tropical beaches or casino stages, per se, but I'd like them to leave more of an impression than "Well, that was basically Green Hill again."

In the case of Mania's four original zones, I think they did a really good job giving the stages really unique identities. So I'd love to see what a full game of totally original zones by the Mania team could look like.

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I’d like to see the Mania treatment given to the Adventure era. Revisiting the Adventure levels and characters  in a new style, albeit probably not in HD, as a throwback. (Filters for those who demand HD).  Also, split the continuity and add an Adventure world to provide asylum from those Wisps. The game would feature stages such as City Escape, Crisis City, and more. My ideas for new stages in there include a zoo stage with interactive animal cages and references to various other Sonic media, that would be the Studiopolis equivalent, and a stage within an ancient portal to the Sol Dimension and back. 

I had an entire topic on doing so, as well.

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26 minutes ago, XTRAordinaryZG said:

Now that you say I never seen that much of an original idea. Maybe they should do something similar to a forest like that one scrapped Sonic 2 level.

The Wood Zone, was the starting point for what Press Garden Zone eventually became.

Wood Zone was the scrapped idea, Press Garden Zone was the finished product.

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I wan't to see all new levels and no more re-imagined ones. Level themes we've never seen before and ones we rarely see would be great as well. 

Maybe more playable characters. I kind of want to see Espio playable in a 2D game again.

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2 hours ago, Sonictrainer said:

The Wood Zone, was the starting point for what Press Garden Zone eventually became.

Wood Zone was the scrapped idea, Press Garden Zone was the finished product.

This is untrue.

Press Garden Zone takes place in a printing press during the Meiji Restoration era. It was Christian Whitehead's idea to make a printing press level and tie in that historical Japanese motif (this was explained during the developer stream of Sonic Mania on Tails Channel's Twitch account). Wood Zone is a completely different concept from the industrial + garden setting of Press Garden, it takes place in the tree tops and inside tree trunks and is an otherwise underdeveloped concept; there's a very good reason it wasn't salvaged whereas Hill Top Zone was. 

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17 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

This is untrue.

Press Garden Zone takes place in a printing press during the Meiji Restoration era. It was Christian Whitehead's idea to make a printing press level and tie in that historical Japanese motif (this was explained during the developer stream of Sonic Mania on Tails Channel's Twitch account). Wood Zone is a completely different concept from the industrial + garden setting of Press Garden, it takes place in the tree tops and inside tree trunks and is an otherwise underdeveloped concept; there's a very good reason it wasn't salvaged whereas Hill Top Zone was. 

When Stealth did a livestream, where a lot of the story elements and Badnik and Boss Names were officially stated for the first time, he revealed that the first concept for Press Garden Zone was the Wood Zone, but with a Sawmill included.

Then the other ideas came in and it became Press Garden Zone.

(Sound is delayed in this video)

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On May 25, 2018 at 2:51 PM, FFWF said:

I wouldn't want any potential Amy gameplay to stray too far from the mould of other characters, and in particular I would say that the spin dash is essential, not just for a Sonic the Hedgehog character but for a hedgehog character; derived as it is from the real hedgehog's ability to curl into a ball, it would make no sense for Amy to lack the ability to roll while the likes of Tails and Ray possess it.  Similarly, I'm not fond of the extra (and frequently extraneous) technical aspect of the Advance movesets; adding a few streamlining moves overall is fine by me, but broadly speaking I think complexity should come from the way movesets interact with the environment.  For example, a one-button hammer spin jump for Amy could still retain the hammer's spring-boosting properties from the Advance games, or do other things like bounce off walls for extra height.

I think the idea of spindashing being essential is bollocks. If anything, I feel that the spindash and other similar moves like the drop dash strip the Genesis formula from the challenge of building speed by using the curved layouts to do so. Heck, even rolling does the same as all you do is press down and watch the character go.

Amy's Advance gameplay brought back said challenge by making speed something you earn rather than something you activate by pressing down + jump, as it id about a more involved and skill demanding process where you need to time your jumps (to which Amy features three with different effects) to build speed. What other character can provide this, given that all of them and their mothers can perform the very same abilities that were supoosed to be Sonic's signature moves?

The one-button design "philosophy" is something I find people clinging for reasons as shallow as "Yuji Naka said so" rather than for something practical... and even if it is, it only benefits certain characters, much like the speed/flight/power ones from Heroes that only served a very specific group but does not properly represent other characters who see their abilities being limited. The only characters who had an issue with the second button were the ones that didn't need it like Sonic and Tails as their original abilities rendered them redundant. Knuckles IMO already misses abilities that he could gain with a second one since his thing is punching stuff, which would add to better represent his skills. Amy's abilities require two not because of it being a change for the sake of changing, but because it's pretty much the norm for platforming characters that kill enemies with melee attacks instead of jumping over them, and having two buttons instead of mapping everything into one allows for a more precise control.

Giving Amy the spindash/spin jump is IMO a terrible decision since then, what makes her unique? Not to mention that she would now have Sonic's abilities that are redundant with her very own ones. Further, what is the point of making everyone play exactly like Sonic? I personally don't see much incentive in these type of characters... nor think that their novelty would last that long since at the end, they're essentially Sonic with different sprites and some tweaked way to reach higher ground and why both Mighty and Ray feel so dissapointing, as Tails and Knuckles are already cover the whole "Sonic + extra moves" mold. Really sad that the potential that comes with having new characters is wasted by forcing them to fit this criteria that is enforced by the unsubstantiated paranoia of it turning like the Adventure games if a character dares to play different like Amy did.

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3 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

I think the idea of spindashing being essential is bollocks. If anything, I feel that the spindash and other similar moves like the drop dash strip the Genesis formula from the challenge of building speed by using the curved layouts to do so. Heck, even rolling does the same as all you do is press down and watch the character go.

Amy's Advance gameplay brought back said challenge by making speed something you earn rather than something you activate by pressing down + jump, as it id about a more involved and skill demanding process where you need to time your jumps (to which Amy features three with different effects) to build speed. What other character can provide this, given that all of them and their mothers can perform the very same abilities that were supoosed to be Sonic's signature moves?

The one-button design "philosophy" is something I find people clinging for reasons as shallow as "Yuji Naka said so" rather than for something practical... and even if it is, it only benefits certain characters, much like the speed/flight/power ones from Heroes that only served a very specific group but does not properly represent other characters who see their abilities being limited. The only characters who had an issue with the second button were the ones that didn't need it like Sonic and Tails as their original abilities rendered them redundant. Knuckles IMO already misses abilities that he could gain with a second one since his thing is punching stuff, which would add to better represent his skills. Amy's abilities require two not because of it being a change for the sake of changing, but because it's pretty much the norm for platforming characters that kill enemies with melee attacks instead of jumping over them, and having two buttons instead of mapping everything into one allows for a more precise control.

Giving Amy the spindash/spin jump is IMO a terrible decision since then, what makes her unique? Not to mention that she would now have Sonic's abilities that are redundant with her very own ones. Further, what is the point of making everyone play exactly like Sonic? I personally don't see much incentive in these type of characters... nor think that their novelty would last that long since at the end, they're essentially Sonic with different sprites and some tweaked way to reach higher ground and why both Mighty and Ray feel so dissapointing, as Tails and Knuckles are already cover the whole "Sonic + extra moves" mold. Really sad that the potential that comes with having new characters is wasted by forcing them to fit this criteria that is enforced by the unsubstantiated paranoia of it turning like the Adventure games if a character dares to play different like Amy did.

You're neglecting that in Sonic Adventure Amy had her own unique levels, as did all the characters. In the classics all the characters need to be able to progress through more or less the same stage. Getting this balance right is difficult. This is part of reason I loved Mirage Saloon 1 as Knuckles so much. After trudging through all these levels designed mainly for Sonic, I finally get a level specifically tailored for Knuckles, and everything just feels so much tighter and... better. More unique paths / stages are the way to go if you want to differentiate the play-styles. I for one am curious to see how / if a potential Mania sequel would address this. I imagine a sequel would have more resources to work with so we may see some experimentation in this regard hopefully. I just hope we don't see things devolve to what Heroes did where each character has like three abilities and you are forced to use all nine of them multiple times to progress, plus the abilities are copy / paste for each character type. I might also want to add that elemental shields feel a little useless when not playing as Sonic. That may be something they wish to address as well.

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11 hours ago, andrew2 said:

You're neglecting that in Sonic Adventure Amy had her own unique levels, as did all the characters. In the classics all the characters need to be able to progress through more or less the same stage. Getting this balance right is difficult. This is part of reason I loved Mirage Saloon 1 as Knuckles so much. After trudging through all these levels designed mainly for Sonic, I finally get a level specifically tailored for Knuckles, and everything just feels so much tighter and... better. More unique paths / stages are the way to go if you want to differentiate the play-styles. I for one am curious to see how / if a potential Mania sequel would address this. I imagine a sequel would have more resources to work with so we may see some experimentation in this regard hopefully. I just hope we don't see things devolve to what Heroes did where each character has like three abilities and you are forced to use all nine of them multiple times to progress, plus the abilities are copy / paste for each character type. I might also want to add that elemental shields feel a little useless when not playing as Sonic. That may be something they wish to address as well.

While I'll usually argue against @Skull Leader's stance of depriving Amy of the core gameplay of at least Sonic 1 since she is herself a hedgehog and curling into a ball is natural ability of hedgehogs unless they have some sort of spinal issue, @E-122-Psi's mods of the original trilogy have shown that Amy can at least do Sonic's routes as long as Spin Dashing is not a requirement when using the Advance moveset.

That said, my only argument against using the Advance moveset in Mania is arguably arbitrary, my stance being since Mania is a celebration of the classic games that is revisiting the original formula that I would like to see how Amy would have been made different pre-hammer, especially since Hoshino (the one primarily credited with Amy's presence in the games) was involved with the project as a content supervisor of some form. 

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In other games where Amy is playable she has an awkward hammer attack which is either only useful at a dead stop, and so does not flow with level structure, or flips her into the air which is just not great when other characters can fly or glide. She’d need a move set that makes playing her interesting. So far she’s been a low level unlockable for most games because she’s just not interesting to play. I think a hilarious but cool Amy mode could have her chasing a computer ghost Sonic through levels trying to but never able to catch him. Like every level would start with her and Sonic, but he’d just zoom off and you have to find him. This way she’d be interacting with the level Sonic left behind already, with traps sprung and routes blocked off so she has to use her own abilities to move through it. It also creates the chance to watch Sonic be a badass from a second character POV, like watching the SA-X ruin stuff in Metroid Fusion. Imagine playing as Amy, being captured, and being rescued by Sonic in an in game cutscene where he just totally wrecks shit. That’s what I wanna see from an Amy mode really.

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Amy doesn't need to play like she did in Sonic Advance to fit in Sonic Mania I would rather her play simply to match Sonic Mania's gameplay giving her a special attack base off of her love for Sonic and call it a day. 

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16 hours ago, Badnik Zero said:

In other games where Amy is playable she has an awkward hammer attack which is either only useful at a dead stop, and so does not flow with level structure, or flips her into the air which is just not great when other characters can fly or glide. She’d need a move set that makes playing her interesting. So far she’s been a low level unlockable for most games because she’s just not interesting to play. I think a hilarious but cool Amy mode could have her chasing a computer ghost Sonic through levels trying to but never able to catch him. Like every level would start with her and Sonic, but he’d just zoom off and you have to find him. This way she’d be interacting with the level Sonic left behind already, with traps sprung and routes blocked off so she has to use her own abilities to move through it. It also creates the chance to watch Sonic be a badass from a second character POV, like watching the SA-X ruin stuff in Metroid Fusion. Imagine playing as Amy, being captured, and being rescued by Sonic in an in game cutscene where he just totally wrecks shit. That’s what I wanna see from an Amy mode really.

Forgive me for logging in just for this.

The salvageability of movesets Amy's had in previous games is debatable, but I strongly dislike the concept of Amy being relegated to a gamemode where she's perpetually in another character's shadow.

Please consider the motivation behind the fanbase's recent clamor for more playable characters besides Sonic. It's because Sonic Team's been far too creatively incompetent to make those characters fun/compelling as NPCs. Making them playable may be the only viable option left in seeing these characters have agency and story-relevance, at least moreso than if they're just some dipshit talking heads.

I'm personally full and truly sick of Sonic being the only one in the cast allowed to accomplish anything. Especially when compared to Amy, a character who promised to  "make Sonic respect her" about 20 goddamn years ago and still hasn't really done it because ST never had the attention span. But what really gets me is why, after years of people swearing up & down that Amy was just some stalker with no purpose outside of irritating Sonic,  are there people wanting her to double down on that personality, as if its the "true" Amy? Like its whats best for the character moving forward?

Now, the most likely reason Sonic would be going anywhere in particular would be to 1. Stop Eggman 2. Save captured animals. Is it too much to ask that we consider the possibility that Amy would express her love for Sonic by attempting to stop Eggman and save captured animals HERSELF?

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Is it alright if I propose Honey appearing (along with Sally and Bunnie)? She could potentially glide using the wings on her dress. Also, i’d like to see multiplayer-only stages again. Or at least exclusive music. 

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14 hours ago, Scape said:

Forgive me for logging in just for this.

The salvageability of movesets Amy's had in previous games is debatable, but I strongly dislike the concept of Amy being relegated to a gamemode where she's perpetually in another character's shadow.

Please consider the motivation behind the fanbase's recent clamor for more playable characters besides Sonic. It's because Sonic Team's been far too creatively incompetent to make those characters fun/compelling as NPCs. Making them playable may be the only viable option left in seeing these characters have agency and story-relevance, at least moreso than if they're just some dipshit talking heads.

I'm personally full and truly sick of Sonic being the only one in the cast allowed to accomplish anything. Especially when compared to Amy, a character who promised to  "make Sonic respect her" about 20 goddamn years ago and still hasn't really done it because ST never had the attention span. But what really gets me is why, after years of people swearing up & down that Amy was just some stalker with no purpose outside of irritating Sonic,  are there people wanting her to double down on that personality, as if its the "true" Amy? Like its whats best for the character moving forward?

Now, the most likely reason Sonic would be going anywhere in particular would be to 1. Stop Eggman 2. Save captured animals. Is it too much to ask that we consider the possibility that Amy would express her love for Sonic by attempting to stop Eggman and save captured animals HERSELF?

As an Amy fan who actually enjoys her crush and fangirl moments (read she is amazed when she gets to see Sonic doing what he does better than anyone) I personally prefer when her crush is shown in some capacity (please no flanderization) as it is firm reminder of who she is and what motivates her to try her best. Sonic is her motivation and when you take that away I find Amy to be a dull shell of a character. I kind of feel the same with Tails though, since without his idolization and attempts to imitate Sonic he just becomes a kid genius archetype with no real sense of agency. Even for Eggman Sonic is a source of motivation as he constantly desires not just to conquer the world, but to best Sonic while doing so. It's having Sonic as a motivation that to me that makes characters feel like they belong when the story is technically about Sonic's adventures and part of why I like Eggman, Tails, Amy, and Metal Sonic.

Now, while I like your suggestion for ways Amy could attempt to demonstrate her love for Sonic, I disagree with your interpreted reasons for Sonic going anywhere. In Sonic 2 he stopped at Westside Island to take a break, not fight Eggman and save animals. In Sonic CD he went to Never Lake to see Little Planet, not fight Eggman, In Sonic 3 he wanted to check out Angel Island, not fight Eggman. In Sonic Adventure he went to Station Square to relax, not fight Eggman. In Sonic Adventure 2 he was trying to get away from gun, not Fight Eggman. In 06 he went to Soleanna to see the festival, not fight Eggman. In Unleashed he already failed to stop Eggman and chose to travel the world to clean up Eggman's mess, not fight him. Sonic is an adventurer and sightseer as much as he is the super hero who stops Eggman and helps those he encounters who are in need. If Amy should be ddemonstrating her love for Sonic by also sharing in the things that he enjoys then she needs to do more than just fight Eggman and rescue animals. And frankly the rescuing animals bit has never really meant anything since at no point in Adventure or Adventure 2 did Sonic acknowledge Amy's efforts to save her little bird friend.

Anyway, I think I went on a bit too much of a tangent there, but it always bothers me when I see people describe Sonic as little more than an antibody to Eggman as if he has no life outside of fighting the Doctor. Sure, outside of the Storybook Games there is little reason (I'd argue the Sonic CD opening as well) to believe you would have interesting stories to tell with Sonic just taking in the sights of the world (give me Sonic meets Journey and I'd be pretty engaged to be sure), but acting like there is nothing for Sonic beyond Eggman is a bit much when the games and manuals constantly show us that Sonic adventures just as much without chasing Eggman as when he is chasing the Doctor. Even in Sonic Heroes, Sonic is shown just running around to his leisure enjoying what he enjoys most, running. Boiling Sonic just down to him being a hero is an easy reason to see why he would push Amy away if she is being to blind to see the hedgehog behind the hero.

Once again, sorry for ranting, but it just bothers me when I see Sonic treated as just a hero and not everything else that he is.

29 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Is it alright if I propose Honey appearing (along with Sally and Bunnie)? She could potentially glide using the wings on her dress. Also, i’d like to see multiplayer-only stages again. Or at least exclusive music. 

The idea of unique multiplayer-only stages is appealing, but in today's gaming culture it would feel wasted without online options.

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16 hours ago, Scape said:

Is it too much to ask that we consider the possibility that Amy would express her love for Sonic by attempting to stop Eggman and save captured animals HERSELF?

I never really meant to exclude the possibility that Amy could interact with the story in other ways, but I still think it’d be cool to be rescued by Sonic in an epic gameplay cutscene. We would get to fanboy/fangirl over Sonic being awesome, which puts us into the perspective of Amy during her own story mode. We never really get to watch Sonic be awesome in a way that affects the game. This also doesn’t exclude Amy saving Sonic at a later point in the game. In fact I think that’s a good place for the arc to go. 

Also these are classic games. As far as I know her only role in those games was to follow Sonic around with hearts over her. This idea is an expansion of that Amy.

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I kind of feel the same with Tails though, since without his idolization and attempts to imitate Sonic he just becomes a kid genius archetype with no real sense of agency.

Right. These characters despite what we draw from story modes, side games, and other media, are still supporting characters to Sonic without their own series arc. Even Knuckles. That’s why every few games they snap back to their basic original character of “fan girl” or “boy sidekick” or “hothead rival”.

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2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

As an Amy fan who actually enjoys her crush and fangirl moments (read she is amazed when she gets to see Sonic doing what he does better than anyone) I personally prefer when her crush is shown in some capacity (please no flanderization) as it is firm reminder of who she is and what motivates her to try her best. Sonic is her motivation and when you take that away I find Amy to be a dull shell of a character. I kind of feel the same with Tails though, since without his idolization and attempts to imitate Sonic he just becomes a kid genius archetype with no real sense of agency. Even for Eggman Sonic is a source of motivation as he constantly desires not just to conquer the world, but to best Sonic while doing so. It's having Sonic as a motivation that to me that makes characters feel like they belong when the story is technically about Sonic's adventures and part of why I like Eggman, Tails, Amy, and Metal Sonic.

Now, while I like your suggestion for ways Amy could attempt to demonstrate her love for Sonic, I disagree with your interpreted reasons for Sonic going anywhere. In Sonic 2 he stopped at Westside Island to take a break, not fight Eggman and save animals. In Sonic CD he went to Never Lake to see Little Planet, not fight Eggman, In Sonic 3 he wanted to check out Angel Island, not fight Eggman. In Sonic Adventure he went to Station Square to relax, not fight Eggman. In Sonic Adventure 2 he was trying to get away from gun, not Fight Eggman. In 06 he went to Soleanna to see the festival, not fight Eggman. In Unleashed he already failed to stop Eggman and chose to travel the world to clean up Eggman's mess, not fight him. Sonic is an adventurer and sightseer as much as he is the super hero who stops Eggman and helps those he encounters who are in need. If Amy should be ddemonstrating her love for Sonic by also sharing in the things that he enjoys then she needs to do more than just fight Eggman and rescue animals. And frankly the rescuing animals bit has never really meant anything since at no point in Adventure or Adventure 2 did Sonic acknowledge Amy's efforts to save her little bird friend.

Anyway, I think I went on a bit too much of a tangent there, but it always bothers me when I see people describe Sonic as little more than an antibody to Eggman as if he has no life outside of fighting the Doctor. Sure, outside of the Storybook Games there is little reason (I'd argue the Sonic CD opening as well) to believe you would have interesting stories to tell with Sonic just taking in the sights of the world (give me Sonic meets Journey and I'd be pretty engaged to be sure), but acting like there is nothing for Sonic beyond Eggman is a bit much when the games and manuals constantly show us that Sonic adventures just as much without chasing Eggman as when he is chasing the Doctor. Even in Sonic Heroes, Sonic is shown just running around to his leisure enjoying what he enjoys most, running. Boiling Sonic just down to him being a hero is an easy reason to see why he would push Amy away if she is being to blind to see the hedgehog behind the hero.

Once again, sorry for ranting, but it just bothers me when I see Sonic treated as just a hero and not everything else that he is.

The idea of unique multiplayer-only stages is appealing, but in today's gaming culture it would feel wasted without online options.

Online multiplayer is a must. We haven’t had that since... Sonic 4 Episode 2? More multiplayer types would also be nice, such as capture the flag. And with the variety of characters providing multiplayer balance the fun wouldn’t stop. Level names should start at the letter F, to fit with what Sonic 3 did. 

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