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Sonic Mania: Sequel Speculation (Spoilers)

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6 hours ago, Scape said:

Forgive me for logging in just for this.

The salvageability of movesets Amy's had in previous games is debatable, but I strongly dislike the concept of Amy being relegated to a gamemode where she's perpetually in another character's shadow.

Please consider the motivation behind the fanbase's recent clamor for more playable characters besides Sonic. It's because Sonic Team's been far too creatively incompetent to make those characters fun/compelling as NPCs. Making them playable may be the only viable option left in seeing these characters have agency and story-relevance, at least moreso than if they're just some dipshit talking heads.

I'm personally full and truly sick of Sonic being the only one in the cast allowed to accomplish anything. Especially when compared to Amy, a character who promised to  "make Sonic respect her" about 20 goddamn years ago and still hasn't really done it because ST never had the attention span. But what really gets me is why, after years of people swearing up & down that Amy was just some stalker with no purpose outside of irritating Sonic,  are there people wanting her to double down on that personality, as if its the "true" Amy? Like its whats best for the character moving forward?

Now, the most likely reason Sonic would be going anywhere in particular would be to 1. Stop Eggman 2. Save captured animals. Is it too much to ask that we consider the possibility that Amy would express her love for Sonic by attempting to stop Eggman and save captured animals HERSELF?

I would like to see Amy stay in love with Sonic expressing herself with a never give up attitude the best part about Amy is that she makes Sonic feel so uncomfortable with her feelings. The people who call her a stalker with no purpose outside of irritating Sonic holds no water and feels like there talking about Eggman rather than Amy.

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Besides Amy though, I think Whitehead’s team lean more towards the Chaotix, given the amount of set pieces they borrow from that game. Not that I particularly need Espio or Vector in my game to be honest. I dunno, is it me or is playing as Chaotix kinda... just boring? Does it have to be?

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1 hour ago, Badnik Zero said:

Besides Amy though, I think Whitehead’s team lean more towards the Chaotix, given the amount of set pieces they borrow from that game. Not that I particularly need Espio or Vector in my game to be honest. I dunno, is it me or is playing as Chaotix kinda... just boring? Does it have to be?

Well, I believe Sega firmly considers them modern characters, which is why not even merchandise was made during Generations of these designs. 

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Espio and Vector are the best to play as. Even if they weren't Espio and Vector and were instead some schmucks called Bill and Ben they'd be best to play as because their gameplay in Chaotix is great. 

Whether said gameplay suits the Mania style level design is another matter. And also what Mira said. 

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The Chaotix and Amy are officially considered Modern-era characters now, seeing how the average consumer had never played any Classic games on anything besides the Genesis. I'm pretty sure that even if they were to appear in Mania, the fan response would be way past negative. 

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Thought I'd drop by and check out what's goin on wich'all.

On 6/16/2018 at 7:14 PM, Dr. Mechano said:

I don't just want new zones. I want new zone motifs, which is something Mania's original zones excelled at. A TV studio? A wild-west town? A printing press? These are really fresh ideas that the series hasn't explored before, and I loved seeing them!

 

On 6/16/2018 at 8:15 PM, Shaun Shikeishuu said:

I wan't to see all new levels and no more re-imagined ones. Level themes we've never seen before and ones we rarely see would be great as well. 

Eh, I'd kinda prefer if they don't go too crazy with that in the Classic stuff. Save some for later/other games, you know?

On 6/16/2018 at 7:33 PM, Miragnarok said:

I’d like to see the Mania treatment given to the Adventure era. Revisiting the Adventure levels and characters  in a new style, albeit probably not in HD, as a throwback. (Filters for those who demand HD).  The game would feature stages such as City Escape, Crisis City, and more. My ideas for new stages in there include a zoo stage with interactive animal cages and references to various other Sonic media, that would be the Studiopolis equivalent, and a stage within an ancient portal to the Sol Dimension and back. 

I had an entire topic on doing so, as well.

That would be a more than decent idea, if a. there are far higher percentage of new levels/themes compared to what Mania did, and b. we didn't already have Generations and by pure association other games doing that.

 

On 6/24/2018 at 1:47 PM, Miragnarok said:

What if we got a reason why the Ruby gave the Heavies personalities? 

Sigh....

Is it really personalities so much as motifs?

On 7/6/2018 at 10:38 AM, Miragnarok said:

Is it alright if I propose Honey appearing (along with Sally and Bunnie)? She could potentially glide using the wings on her dress. Also, i’d like to see multiplayer-only stages again. Or at least exclusive music. 

That'd be neat, though I'm not sure she actually has a place here.

On 7/6/2018 at 11:08 AM, Sonic Fan J said:

As an Amy fan who actually enjoys her crush and fangirl moments (read she is amazed when she gets to see Sonic doing what he does better than anyone) I personally prefer when her crush is shown in some capacity (please no flanderization) as it is firm reminder of who she is and what motivates her to try her best. Sonic is her motivation and when you take that away I find Amy to be a dull shell of a character.

The way some of you people prioritize Amy is a little weird.

On 7/6/2018 at 11:08 AM, Sonic Fan J said:

 I kind of feel the same with Tails though, since without his idolization and attempts to imitate Sonic he just becomes a kid genius archetype with no real sense of agency.

Yeah, definitely and unfortunately, Tails is generally the most "boring" of the game cast.

23 hours ago, Badnik Zero said:

I never really meant to exclude the possibility that Amy could interact with the story in other ways, but I still think it’d be cool to be rescued by Sonic in an epic gameplay cutscene. We would get to fanboy/fangirl over Sonic being awesome, which puts us into the perspective of Amy during her own story mode. 

Also these are classic games. As far as I know her only role in those games was to follow Sonic around with hearts over her. This idea is an expansion of that Amy.

 

Well, it would be the Classic version, so I don't see why not.

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20 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Thought I'd drop by and check out what's goin on wich'all.

Eh, I'd kinda prefer if they don't go too crazy with that in the Classic stuff. Save some for later/other games, you know?

That would be a more than decent idea, if a. there are far higher percentage of new levels/themes compared to what Mania did, and b. we didn't already have Generations and by pure association other games doing that.

 

Sigh....

Is it really personalities so much as motifs?

That'd be neat, though I'm not sure she actually has a place here.

The way some of you people prioritize Amy is a little weird.

Yeah, definitely and unfortunately, Tails is generally the most "boring" of the game cast.

Well, it would be the Classic version, so I don't see why not.

1) I agree. Crazy levels have their limits. See Dessert Ruins as an example of when this goes way too far.

2) The difference is, that this is VERY strictly for the Adventure era. Generations also covered clsssic and other games. 

3) Persobalities, motifs, whatever. An explanation would be nice. 

4) She would compliment Mighty and Ray. 

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12 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

1) I agree. Crazy levels have their limits. See Dessert Ruins as an example of when this goes way too far.

2) The difference is, that this is VERY strictly for the Adventure era. Generations also covered clsssic and other games. 

3) Persobalities, motifs, whatever. An explanation would be nice. 

4) She would compliment Mighty and Ray. 

1. I was talking more about letting the Modern Games get some of that creativity, but sure, I guess.

2. My point is the "nostalgia" has been getting an increasingly derogatory rap for how most games after Unleashed utilized it. There were even people complaining about the Badniks in Lost World, for Pete's sake.  

3. Because fun, that's why. But in-universe, Robotnik is clearly seen giving them orders after they've been transformed and uses the Ruby's power himself a couple of times, so clearly they're an extension of his plan. Even the Ninja. 

4. N'yeh, it'd be better to just use Amy.

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

1. I was talking more about letting the Modern Games get some of that creativity, but sure, I guess.

2. My point is the "nostalgia" has been getting an increasingly derogatory rap for how most games after Unleashed utilized it. There were even people complaining about the Badniks in Lost World, for Pete's sake.  

3. Because fun, that's why. But in-universe, Robotnik is clearly seen giving them orders after they've been transformed and uses the Ruby's power himself a couple of times, so clearly they're an extension of his plan. Even the Ninja. 

4. N'yeh, it'd be better to just use Amy.

2) Oh yes.

3) Oh. So, it was Eggman’s choice?

4) Why can’t we have both?

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2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

The way some of you people prioritize Amy is a little weird.

I'm probably just not good at wording it to be honest, but suffice to say, I've always enjoyed Amy's fangirl side both for the ridiculousness of seeing Sonic have a fangirl and for having someone in game marvel at Sonic and his feats. There's just something I find entertaining in that side of the relationship between the two characters. Seeing Sonic run from a fan because they get way too excited upon seeing him is just oddly entertaining, and from a character perspective it gives Amy all the more reason to keep pursuing lest she miss seeing her hero do something else amazing.

On an aside, writing out this response actually further makes me want to see Amy's fangirl aspects explored beyond just the "I love you/marry me" tropes of a fangirl.

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3 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

2) Oh yes.

3) Oh. So, it was Eggman’s choice?

4) Why can’t we have both?

3. Most likely. You know, unless it was the Phantom Ruby itself, which may or may not have some sort of will of it's own.

4. Because the base game has Sonic, Tails, & Knuckles and thus Mighty & Ray are one character short of being an equal trio.

 

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19 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

3. Most likely. You know, unless it was the Phantom Ruby itself, which may or may not have some sort of will of it's own.

4. Because the base game has Sonic, Tails, & Knuckles and thus Mighty & Ray are one character short of being an equal trio.

 

4. If Sally and Bunnie appear alongside Honey, that would make a trio of trios.

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17 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

4. If Sally and Bunnie appear alongside Honey, that would make a trio of trios.

I suppose. With that said, if you're gonna include Sally and Bunnie, wouldn't the actually related and distinctly colored Nicole be a better third member?

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24 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I suppose. With that said, if you're gonna include Sally and Bunnie, wouldn't the actually related and distinctly colored Nicole be a better third member?

Sure. But Honey could get Lupe and Tiara. 

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Bumping this and changing the subject a bit

With Mania Plus plus out to good initial sales and rave reviews outranking the original release last year, what's in store for future games? I'd initially said that I would be happy with another sprite-based game artistically similar to Mania. But considering how well Mania and Plus have performed, I'd really like to see SEGA push the boat out with a follow-up and afford the team the chance to go further in the art department. An entire game with HD art similar to Mania Adventures or an airbrushed style in line with the Classic art (along the lines of S2HD) along be really wonderful. I worry that without something to visually set it apart and take it into the modern day, a sequel will be derided for resting on its laurels and relying too much on nostalgia yet again. I'll enjoy any follow up game by the same teams for sure, but I hope to see the scope broadened. 

At this point, the teams behind Mania must have now ideas for the series. If they're interested, it'll be nothing short of criminal not to let them make a game even bigger and better.

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10 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

 I'd really like to see SEGA push the boat out with a follow-up and afford the team the chance to go further in the art department. An entire game with HD art similar to Mania Adventures or an airbrushed style in line with the Classic art (along the lines of S2HD) along be really wonderful. I worry that without something to visually set it apart and take it into the modern day, a sequel will be derided for resting on its laurels and relying too much on nostalgia yet again. I'll enjoy any follow up game by the same teams for sure, but I hope to see the scope broadened.

Oh, no no no noooooooo! No wasting time with graphic updates. They look fine.

Every god damn game wastes time and resource on graphics. Forces wastes years to make better graphics, only to look duller than Generations.

I know this team is competent, but I prefer if they spend graphic artists on more idle animations or extravagant bosses (better yet, more playable characters).

Plus, that way they can re-use same graphics, so every next sequel will have more and more stuff ready and team will be able to focus on making new stuff, rather than making 7th recreation of Knuckles sprite. If Mania 11 will look exactly as Mania 1, I'll be happy.

If they want to fix something, they could take attempt at decent story telling. Maybe "Modern DLC" if I can still dream naively.

And if we want 'visual identity' then use different aesthetics, not graphics. Sonic CD has very unique zones for example.

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I'd be fine with keeping Mania's current graphical style because I love the shit out of the Saturn, but maybe they could push it to... Dreamcast 2D? Take a gander at Puyo~n on DC. It's not a dramatic difference in terms of the actual spritework I suppose, but it could be neat. 

Image result for puyo_n dreamcast

 

Quote

If they want to fix something, they could take attempt at decent story telling. Maybe "Modern DLC" if I can still dream naively.

I'd rather they work on developing the aesthetic than exposition I highly doubt most players are going to be too bothered about, let alone continuing to blend Modern and Classic. 

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Do we have any interview or twitter comment or something we can point to that shows the Mania team want to do another game? Not suggesting they wouldn't, I think it's as obvious a move as anyone else, but I keep seeing comments assuming the ball is in Sega's court and I'd just want to see a comment from Christian, Simon, or whoever that they have ideas or are interested in doing more. It seems like the obvious question someone would have posed to them by this point.

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1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Oh, no no no noooooooo! No wasting time with graphic updates. They look fine.

Every god damn game wastes time and resource on graphics. Forces wastes years to make better graphics, only to look duller than Generations.

I know this team is competent, but I prefer if they spend graphic artists on more idle animations or extravagant bosses (better yet, more playable characters).

Plus, that way they can re-use same graphics, so every next sequel will have more and more stuff ready and team will be able to focus on making new stuff, rather than making 7th recreation of Knuckles sprite. If Mania 11 will look exactly as Mania 1, I'll be happy.

If they want to fix something, they could take attempt at decent story telling. Maybe "Modern DLC" if I can still dream naively.

Yeah, I think re-using and maybe slightly retouching the prior graphics would be the best move. Though Mighty’s set could be redone based on Sonic 3 Sonic. Or vice-versa, just to differentiate the cast. Though I wouldn't be opposed to an overhaul...

 

Also, which Heavy do you want to be playable?

 

And Taxman said he’s interested in making s 3D game...

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Pixel art is one of those artstyles that never gets old, at least to me. It's very charming and simple to work with. And believe, Sonic Mania is absolutely amazing, but it can look even better without changing this style. What I really don't want is switching to an artstyle similar to Megaman 11, which I just feel like a lot of cheapy mobile games use. I can't think of any 2D game that goes for that 3D-look artstyle that is actually appealing, to me at least. They always look dull and plastic. Fully HD hand-draw graphics, tho'? Man, that shit would take ages to be done, and.. IDK, if it's like Sonic 2 HD, maybe, but I'm still not a huge fan of how that looks, I gotta see some options, like @Blue Blood said, perhaps an airbrush-like style similar to the classic artworks could look neat. But please, not that cheapy 3D...

Pixel art suits Classic Sonic perfectly, IMO. A sequel improoving this style even more, with more background layers, more frames, Mania Plus' 5 playable characters from the go + Amy or the Chaotix, all or 90% original zones this time, an original story with new and old antagonists and artifacts, perhaps animated cutscenes between zones and of course, done by THE SAME TEAM, is all I ask for for a sequel. 

And the name should be, again, Sonic Fever :V

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I'd take a million games with the Mania pixel style - but the question is, would reviewers and the general public?  Some people still look at Mania and think they literally just copied the original level and character graphics from the classics; we all know they've been rebuilt and considerably updated, but the graphics as they stand are almost too good at being faithful to the originals, faithful to what people remember.  I don't think a Mania series necessarily needs to move on from pixel art, but I do think that a spiritual sequel should look to find its own art style, something that's more recognisably an evolution from the classics rather than a polish of the familiar sprites.  In pixel art terms, think the way Sonic looks different between 3 and 2, or a little more drastically, how Sonic Advance looks like its own product (not that they should use the Advance art style or gameplay, just that it might help for there to be similar differentiation).  Hand-drawn or HD or a more straightforward generational leap would be fine, too, but there are possibilities for creating a unique art style without doing any of those things.

For everything else, all they need to do is what they'd do anyway.

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10 minutes ago, FFWF said:

I'd take a million games with the Mania pixel style - but the question is, would reviewers and the general public?  Some people still look at Mania and think they literally just copied the original level and character graphics from the classics; we all know they've been rebuilt and considerably updated, but the graphics as they stand are almost too good at being faithful to the originals, faithful to what people remember.  I don't think a Mania series necessarily needs to move on from pixel art, but I do think that a spiritual sequel should look to find its own art style, something that's more recognisably an evolution from the classics rather than a polish of the familiar sprites.  In pixel art terms, think the way Sonic looks different between 3 and 2, or a little more drastically, how Sonic Advance looks like its own product (not that they should use the Advance art style or gameplay, just that it might help for there to be similar differentiation).  Hand-drawn or HD or a more straightforward generational leap would be fine, too, but there are possibilities for creating a unique art style without doing any of those things.

For everything else, all they need to do is what they'd do anyway.

Cheers for putting what I was trying to say into better words.

Mania is gorgeous. It's not pretending to be 8- or 16-bit like a lot of games do pretty arbitrarily. Especially in the original zones like Studiopolis, the colour palette goes above and beyond anything that a 16-bit game could hope to achieve. The 32-bit/Saturn style that the game has gone for its incredibly unique, but it's still another retro looking game to a lot of people. I worry that without something to set a sequel apart visually, it will be recognised as rehashing and trying to do the same thing twice. And I think it would be beneficial to make the point that Mania isn't good just because it's retro and that's the only way that Sonic works. 

There are plenty more things that can be done with pixel art, but going for the same or a similar artstyle for a second game would really have a lesser impact than it did the first time around. It would feel like the series isn't moving forwards. Mania took us right back to where the Classic games left off. I hope to see it keep moving forwards.

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