Sonic Mania: Sequel Speculation (Spoilers)

[Sonic Fan J]

1 hour ago, superman43 said:

I wanted to say something in regards to this topic since it started.

I honestly believe there won´t be any successor to the classics and Mania in the terms of what you all mean - that said, all original zones or nearly all original zones.

The thing is... well... SEGA knows very well that "Mania 2" a.k.a. close to the amount of original and reused zones in Mania will be a setback. That´s why Mania Plus was approved.

And you may ask why original zones won´t work... Hm... You have to encontain it in "Classic" dimension. Mania used 4 existing locations and for a new game you will need a new location. This may fail as Sonic 4 did.

The thing is, Sonic 4 didn't really use new zones to start nor did it follow the original design concept of the classics. Mania from its pitch to its execution always intended to use the original design concept as its base, and considering the reception of the new zones in Mania it pulled it off successfully. If anything, combined with the demand for even more brand new levels in Mania or its potential sequel it goes to show that when SEGA retired the original formula it still had a lot of life left in it that should have been explored back then though it could be argued that potential exists today because of SEGA stepping away from the original formula. Regardless, the biggest complaint against Mania has been the lack of new levels (and in some places Amy XD) so it can be logically believed that a direct sequel could in fact be the same game formula with some slight tweaks and no reused levels. That's how the classics were made to begin with and all people really wanted out of Sonic 4. It's why there are some many people who praise the Advance games and see them as the next step after 3&K. 

[Sonictrainer]

2 hours ago, superman43 said:

I wanted to say something in regards to this topic since it started.

I honestly believe there won´t be any successor to the classics and Mania in the terms of what you all mean - that said, all original zones or nearly all original zones.

The thing is... well... SEGA knows very well that "Mania 2" a.k.a. close to the amount of original and reused zones in Mania will be a setback. That´s why Mania Plus was approved.

And you may ask why original zones won´t work... Hm... You have to encontain it in "Classic" dimension. Mania used 4 existing locations and for a new game you will need a new location. This may fail as Sonic 4 did.

1. Mania Plus was approved because they realized that reselling it just as a physical copy of the game without any new content didn't seem worth it, especially if you already bought the Collector's Edition.

2. The problem Sonic 4 has isn't that the game takes place on Mirage Island, it's that the level design and physics are terrible. Mania's Green Hill Zone Act 2 has the same gimmicks as Splash Hill Zone but it blows it out of the park.

3. Half of the new Zones in this game started out from scrapped content from the Genesis Era games anyway.

[superman43]

2 hours ago, Sonictrainer said:

1. Mania Plus was approved because they realized that reselling it just as a physical copy of the game without any new content didn't seem worth it, especially if you already bought the Collector's Edition.

2. The problem Sonic 4 has isn't that the game takes place on Mirage Island, it's that the level design and physics are terrible. Mania's Green Hill Zone Act 2 has the same gimmicks as Splash Hill Zone but it blows it out of the park.

3. Half of the new Zones in this game started out from scrapped content from the Genesis Era games anyway.

It exactly means that the classic stages are far too memorable. And with Mania having 4 new tropes, well, there are very few left. And it is the problem with Modern games as well as any potential new classic game. 

[Salamander]

...That point of view seems severely lacking in imagination.

[Sonictrainer]

1 hour ago, superman43 said:

It exactly means that the classic stages are far too memorable. And with Mania having 4 new tropes, well, there are very few left. And it is the problem with Modern games as well as any potential new classic game. 

None of the tropes in Mania are new. However, the ideas are new.

Studiopolis is a fusion of the amusement park and city theme that has creative ways of using studio equipment .

Press Garden is a newspaper factory and sawmill in the middle of a snowy region with a special variant of cherry blossoms that can survive there.

Mirage Saloon is a desert with a train, ice cream parlor, and magic show.

Titanic Monarch is the outside and inside of a giant robot that has reality altering Ruby Mist.

 

The problem with new levels in other recent games is that they don't go crazy with their ideas and they become a little boring. That's why Green Hill in Forces leaves much to be desired.

[Milo]

3 hours ago, FFWF said:

...That point of view seems severely lacking in imagination.

I remember reading the Sonic 4 PR manager years trying to bring up a similar argument as a defense for the game (Epi. I in particular), that the series has revisited certain level tropes/terrains so many times that it's hard to make a new zone without it being called a rehash of a past trope.

But that ignored the fact that people were calling the zones in Epi. I a rehash not because the zones were revisiting certain level tropes, but because they were outright lifting the same exact identity of past levels--level decorations, enemies, level gimmicks, bosses, even level layouts were being direct copies; rather than something genuinely new or at least tweaked to still feel fresh. Nobody's going to think a level is going to be Green Hill until the level forces them to think Green Hill, as was the case with Splash Hill and Windy Hill. Between those two zones and the series revisiting/reimagining the original Green Hill in Generations, Mania, and Forces as it is; how many times have we seen checkered wall backgrounds, green striped grass, Motobugs, and Choppers at this point? On the flip side, nobody with any actual credibility is going to say the same thing about, say, Planet Wisp or Angel Island, they're just going to think of it as "another green/tropical level". Hundreds of other platforming games and sequels entries have managed avoiding this "problem" just fine.

If your artists and level designers are told to design a airship level and a water level, and they for the life of them can't design a airship level that isn't a Flying Battery level or a water level that isn't a Hydrocity level; then it's time to get some new artists and level designers. Though starting them off with new bosses, badniks, and environment details would be a good first step. Meanwhile, it's virtually a guarantee that if you hired someone who has never seen Mystic Cave in their life to design a cave level, the result wouldn't be called a rehash by anybody.

So no, it actually isn't hard to make new zones from a heavily-revisited level trope, that still look and feel novel and don't come off as clones of something we've seen before.

[Multikaris]

4 hours ago, Space☆Yeow said:

I remember reading the Sonic 4 PR manager years trying to bring up a similar argument as a defense for the game (Epi. I in particular), that the series has revisited certain level tropes/terrains so many times that it's hard to make a new zone without it being called a rehash of a past trope.

But that ignored the fact that people were calling the zones in Epi. I a rehash not because the zones were revisiting certain level tropes, but because they were outright lifting the same exact identity of past levels--level decorations, enemies, level gimmicks, bosses, even level layouts were being direct copies; rather than something genuinely new or at least tweaked to still feel fresh. Nobody's going to think a level is going to be Green Hill until the level forces them to think Green Hill, as was the case with Splash Hill and Windy Hill. Between those two zones and the series revisiting/reimagining the original Green Hill in Generations, Mania, and Forces as it is; how many times have we seen checkered wall backgrounds, green striped grass, Motobugs, and Choppers at this point? On the flip side, nobody with any actual credibility is going to say the same thing about, say, Planet Wisp or Angel Island, they're just going to think of it as "another green/tropical level". Hundreds of other platforming games and sequels entries have managed avoiding this "problem" just fine.

If your artists and level designers are told to design a airship level and a water level, and they for the life of them can't design a airship level that isn't a Flying Battery level or a water level that isn't a Hydrocity level; then it's time to get some new artists and level designers. Though starting them off with new bosses, badniks, and environment details would be a good first step. Meanwhile, it's virtually a guarantee that if you hired someone who has never seen Mystic Cave in their life to design a cave level, the result wouldn't be called a rehash by anybody.

So no, it actually isn't hard to make new zones from a heavily-revisited level trope, that still look and feel novel and don't come off as clones of something we've seen before.

Exactly! The very fist sonic game to suffer the rehash problem was Pocket Adventure. And speaking of that, I wouldn’t consider Lost Labyrinth nor anything in E2 rehashes due to the different aesthetics and gimmicks. This is the difference between Ice Cap in Adventure and GHZ and CP in Forces, or worse, in Mania. While GHZ was meant to serve as a plot relevant location in Forces, unlike Adventure, it didn’t look as distinct. Mania is much, MUCH worse in this regard, with GHZ serving as little beyond an obligatory position as the first Zone. 

[Milo]

1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

And speaking of that, I wouldn’t consider Lost Labyrinth nor anything in E2 rehashes due to the different aesthetics and gimmicks.

Eh, White Park is the only S4 zone I'd say was a genuine new zone. Sky Fortress is a straight up Wing Fortress/Sky Chase clone; and Death Egg mk. II is pretty much what it says on the tin (except it's somehow even more basic in design than the S3 Death Egg). Sylvania Castle and Oil Desert meanwhile still also have strong shades of Aquatic Ruin and Oil Ocean in them (the fake-out troll boss in Sylvania Castle in hindsight of this isn't actually clever IMO); though unlike the rest of the other S4 zones, they do look visually different and have different bosses.

1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

This is the difference between Ice Cap in Adventure and GHZ and CP in Forces, or worse, in Mania. While GHZ was meant to serve as a plot relevant location in Forces, unlike Adventure, it didn’t look as distinct. Mania is much, MUCH worse in this regard, with GHZ serving as little beyond an obligatory position as the first Zone. 

Eh? My post about rehashed content was referring to what are (in theory) supposed to be new zones, rather than zones that are supposed to be recreations of zones from past games. Ice Cap in Adventure and Green Hill in Generations/Forces/Mania wouldn't apply here.

[Jango]

14 hours ago, superman43 said:

I wanted to say something in regards to this topic since it started.

I honestly believe there won´t be any successor to the classics and Mania in the terms of what you all mean - that said, all original zones or nearly all original zones.

The thing is... well... SEGA knows very well that "Mania 2" a.k.a. close to the amount of original and reused zones in Mania will be a setback. That´s why Mania Plus was approved.

And you may ask why original zones won´t work... Hm... You have to encontain it in "Classic" dimension. Mania used 4 existing locations and for a new game you will need a new location. This may fail as Sonic 4 did.

I wanted to say something in regards to this topic since it started.

I honestly believe there won´t be any successor to the classics and Mania in the terms of what you all mean - that said, all original zones or nearly all original zones.

The thing is... well... SEGA knows very well that "Mania 2" a.k.a. close to the amount of original and reused zones in Mania will be a setback. That´s why Mania Plus was approved.

And you may ask why original zones won´t work... Hm... You have to encontain it in "Classic" dimension. Mania used 4 existing locations and for a new game you will need a new location. This may fail as Sonic 4 did.

Well... IDK if this flew under SSMB radar, but this week, Iizuka gave an interview to Famitsu, saying that after Mania Plus, they're done with Sonic Mania and that they don't have plans for a sequel or another retro game in mind, AT THE MOMENT.

Take your own conclusions.

Oh, he also said the game was very popular with younger audiences, despite being aimed at hardcore fans at most. Shocking, right? Well, that's what happens when you make a GREAT game, it appeals and works for everyone, Iizuka-san. But you don't know how is this feeling.

Watch Sonic Mania be an one off thing, and the next main Sonic game be yet another gimmicky hot garbage as the franchise craws back to the hole. The live action movie will be the cherry on top of the cake.

[Joellui]

6 minutes ago, Jango said:

Well... IDK if this flew under SSMB radar, but this week, Iizuka gave an interview to Famitsu, saying that after Mania Plus, they're done with Sonic Mania and that they don't have plans for a sequel or another retro game in mind, AT THE MOMENT.

Take your own conclusions.

Oh, he also said the game was very popular with younger audiences, despite being aimed at hardcore fans at most. Shocking, right? Well, that's what happens when you make a GREAT game, it appeals and works for everyone, Iizuka-san. But you don't know how is this feeling.

Watch Sonic Mania be an one off thing, and the next main Sonic game be yet another gimmicky hot garbage.

Didn't Lizuka also mention that Classic Sonic wasn't be back? 

[Jango]

Your point being...? That he's a liar? I think it's a fact that no one wanted that Classic Sonic, the shallow and automated mess Sonic Team calls "Classic". It should've stayed in Generations, anyways. Hopefully a Mania sequel is more down to SEGA of America than Japan or Sonic Team. So I'm still kinda optimist.

[A person, that exists]

Truth be told, I'm kinda glad that Mania is outta the pool for now.

Because, let's be real, we wouldn't  want a New Super Mario Brothers thing going on, where every game is literally the same, except there is a new word in the title + some shitty gimmick nobody uses.

Like, really, I would take a FULLY ORIGINAL, yet less than perfect 3D/2D Modern game, than another well-made, yet soulless Classic game with Green Hills and Chemical Plants all over it.

[superman43]

7 hours ago, Jango said:

Your point being...? That he's a liar? I think it's a fact that no one wanted that Classic Sonic, the shallow and automated mess Sonic Team calls "Classic". It should've stayed in Generations, anyways. Hopefully a Mania sequel is more down to SEGA of America than Japan or Sonic Team. So I'm still kinda optimist.

One thing. The Generations split was used with Mania and Forces. I suspect they would try it another time. That´s why no Mania sequel is planned, cause:
1) It can´t be called Mania 2

2) It has to somehow tie to the jackshit Sonic Team and SoJ come up with. 

3) The next game by Sonic Team would be 50/50 as Sonic 1, Sonic Adventure and Sonic Unleashed (50/50 meaning half liked, half hated)

[Jango]

6 hours ago, A person, that exists said:

Truth be told, I'm kinda glad that Mania is outta the pool for now.

Because, let's be real, we wouldn't  want a New Super Mario Brothers thing going on, where every game is literally the same, except there is a new word in the title + some shitty gimmick nobody uses.

Like, really, I would take a FULLY ORIGINAL, yet less than perfect 3D/2D Modern game, than another well-made, yet soulless Classic game with Green Hills and Chemical Plants all over it.

As if a Mania 2 would be like this. This game, despite being 2D like the old ones, pixelated like the old ones, have a bunch of old zones, managed to have more soul, style, charm and obviously, quality, than anything Iizuka and his team over Japan created since Sonic Adventure 1. Not to mention, the widely criticized inclusing of Green Hill and other old zones is all on him. The Mania Team had to pull a miracle to reverse this situation that keeps on repeating because in Sonic Team's head, Green Hill and 2D gameplay is as far as they can go when comes to understand the classics. This is soulless, this is shallow. Slap another Green Hill and call it a day. Even then, the Mania Team managed to make these old zones much more original and enjoyable than, you know, just putting some SAND in the background. 

Shitty gimmick? Yes, because everybody loved Sonic Team's latest, right? The avatar. You're severely confusing the things here. 

[Red Hot Jack]

Can we please stop treating Iizuka like he's the devil? He turned Mania from a tiny project into a big game, he pushed for a physical release to meet fan demands and asked to add extra content, and brought back Mighty and Ray among other things.

I'm not trying to defend him because I like him, I don't, but I believe he's not that bad.

[A person, that exists]

46 minutes ago, Jango said:

Shitty gimmick? Yes, because everybody loved Sonic Team's latest, right? The avatar. You're severely confusing the things here. 

Actually, I was talking about NSMB in that sentence.

Because, let's be real, the blocks in the WiiU version sucked.

Although, the Drop Dash is almost as useful as the Peel-Out, and is more or less a speedrun thing, but, hey, you can't bash THE HOLY DROP DASH now, can you?

As for the "Soul and charm" argument, I think that it has more to do with the nostalgia factor. Mania has a soul, yes, but, honestly, I've seen more creative and cute romhacks, you know, fan-made zero-budget stuff. If Mania had the same level of creativity (Or at least some level of creativity, seeing how the only original levels are Titanic Monarch and Press Garden, and most of the badniks are reused from old game), then it would at least feel like something new.

41 minutes ago, Jack the Maniac said:

Can we please stop treating Iizuka like he's the devil?

But he IS the devil.

After all, he greenlit Sonic 4, he greenlit the Olympic Games, he greenlit Sonic Boom, and he also forced the Mania team to add old levels into the game. 

Doesn't look like an angel to me.

[Rabid-Coot]

With games industry statements you never know if no plans means not happening or we're doing something and don't want to talk about it please stay focused on our already announced products.

[Jango]

1 hour ago, Jack the Maniac said:

Can we please stop treating Iizuka like he's the devil? He turned Mania from a tiny project into a big game, he pushed for a physical release to meet fan demands and asked to add extra content, and brought back Mighty and Ray among other things.

I'm not trying to defend him because I like him, I don't, but I believe he's not that bad.

He's not the devil, yes, he greenlit Sonic Mania, but I still think it was more a struck of luck rather than an honest "we believe in these guys". Christian worked with SEGA before, yes, but never in partnership with Sonic Team. It was all SEGA of America. The moment they added Iizuka to the equation, we got the same old nostalgia pandering he believes is the right one: recycling. IIRC, Sonic Team was not so eager about adding Tails to Sonic CD 2011, so you see, how the most simple stuff, goes to way more trouble than it should. They probably made them change that Tails' animation in Mania too, and frankly, the original one was nothing out of his character as far as I can tell.

I really, really wish SEGA would notice the potential of these devs, embrace them as a sub-division focused on making retro games and remasters (not only Sonic for that matter), instead of, apparently, letting them go. They're already looking for new jobs. Not judging them for this, hey, we all have bills to pay, can't eat without money too, but it worries me that SEGA wasn't smart enough to struck a deal / contract with them to develop more than ONE game. Amazing how they had no fear of greenliting 2 Boom games and a full series, despite the risk of being something completely different (and widely bad received), while Mania that plays it safe, but with a lot of quality and charm, is still on the unknow territory... This needs to go FURTHER. Much further than one game and a mini series. 

[A person, that exists]

1 minute ago, Jango said:

while Mania that plays it safe, but with a lot of quality and charm, still on the unknow territory... This needs to go FURTHER. Much more further.

It could go in that territory, but let's be real here: if Sega will continue to make Manias like there's no tomorrow, the title will lose it's initial charm and novelty pretty quickly. A similar thing happened with NSMB, where the first game was a new and fresh take on the classics, but the later ones just felt like soulless rehashes. 

Like, there's not playing safe, and then there's playing TOO SAFE. After all, we don't want an Activision thing to happen with Mania, right?

Not to mention that making Classic the only Sonic would just be boosh. Come on, we finally got at least a semblance of a balanced three-line franchise, like what happened with Megaman, and now we should just scrap the other two just to focus on one? Why? PagodaWest isn't Sega, they're a side company, they make games on their own. Essentially, the relationship between them and Sega is like the relationship between Sega and Dimps in the early 2000-s. So, really, there's no reason to choose between classic and modern, when we can have both.

Don't get me wrong, I like the classics (The GameGear ones at least), but the current situation of Sega exploiting nostalgia way too much is really sad. Like, it worked with Generations, it worked with Mania, and it will work with a thousand later games, but all it does is establish Sonic as a "Nostalgia game series", that has no will to move on.

 

[Jango]

Never said anything about ditching Modern Sonic, in fact, Sonic Team should be kept away from Team Mania, and focus in getting their shit together instead of making stupid tie-ins.

I want a great Modern Sonic game as much as I want a Mania sequel, but the truth is, after so many years, Sonic Team already lost me, I don't believe they will ever achieve this, sadly, they don't understand Sonic anymore. I give zero fucks about their next game, a fresh new team nailed the Sonic essence with their very first official/original game, so what's the point in still believing in Sonic Team anyways? No one should be so naive, unless you're new to this franchise.

[WakanoBaka]

4 hours ago, Jango said:

Sonic Team should be kept away from Team Mania, and focus in getting their shit together instead of making stupid tie-ins.

I want a great Modern Sonic game as much as I want a Mania sequel, but the truth is, after so many years, Sonic Team already lost me, I don't believe they will ever achieve this, sadly, they don't understand Sonic anymore. I give zero fucks about their next game,

That's kinda a painful way of stating it. But I'm not saying I fully disagree...

 

4 hours ago, Jango said:

a fresh new team nailed the Sonic essence with their very first official/original game, so what's the point in still believing in Sonic Team anyways? No one should be so naive, unless you're new to this franchise.

Yeah, but lets take into account that's a 2D game that already has a formula to base off of. The 3D games never had a standard, b'cus often times Sonic is put in an oen 3D environment of some sorts, he screws some shit up anyways. From 3D blast to present, the idea of Sonic in 3D has been pushed, but never perfected. There was always something to bitch about; controls, camera , etc like that. When one game fixed it, it added another problem; too fast, non tight controls, etc. So on so forth. 

[BlueFlare]

2 hours ago, Jango said:

Never said anything about ditching Modern Sonic, in fact, Sonic Team should be kept away from Team Mania, and focus in getting their shit together instead of making stupid tie-ins.

I want a great Modern Sonic game as much as I want a Mania sequel, but the truth is, after so many years, Sonic Team already lost me, I don't believe they will ever achieve this, sadly, they don't understand Sonic anymore. I give zero fucks about their next game, a fresh new team nailed the Sonic essence with their very first official/original game, so what's the point in still believing in Sonic Team anyways? No one should be so naive, unless you're new to this franchise.

Just wait for the movie tie-in game. It gonna have photorealistic graphics, human NPCs and stuff.

[Multikaris]

On 5/4/2018 at 4:56 AM, Jango said:

He's not the devil, yes, he greenlit Sonic Mania, but I still think it was more a struck of luck rather than an honest "we believe in these guys". Christian worked with SEGA before, yes, but never in partnership with Sonic Team. It was all SEGA of America. The moment they added Iizuka to the equation, we got the same old nostalgia pandering he believes is the right one: recycling. IIRC, Sonic Team was not so eager about adding Tails to Sonic CD 2011, so you see, how the most simple stuff, goes to way more trouble than it should. They probably made them change that Tails' animation in Mania too, and frankly, the original one was nothing out of his character as far as I can tell.

I really, really wish SEGA would notice the potential of these devs, embrace them as a sub-division focused on making retro games and remasters (not only Sonic for that matter), instead of, apparently, letting them go. They're already looking for new jobs. Not judging them for this, hey, we all have bills to pay, can't eat without money too, but it worries me that SEGA wasn't smart enough to struck a deal / contract with them to develop more than ONE game. Amazing how they had no fear of greenliting 2 Boom games and a full series, despite the risk of being something completely different (and widely bad received), while Mania that plays it safe, but with a lot of quality and charm, is still on the unknow territory... This needs to go FURTHER. Much further than one game and a mini series. 

My thoughts?

* Mania’s successor in spirit should resolve all that was left hanging from Forces and Mania Plus alike, just to throw modern fans a bone. 

* It should ease in from Mania’s meta-party to a more serious yet charming tone early on. 

* No Omlette. There’s plenty of other characters to use. And seeing a meme character in a real game would be disenheartening, given the sheer amount of memes used by other Sonic media. 

* Improve the graphics slightly. 

* Don’t make it 2.5D. Just don’t.

* At the very least, invert the ratio of new to rehashed zones. Of the rehashed zones, one should be from Mania itself. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

On 5/4/2018 at 7:56 AM, Jango said:

It was all SEGA of America.

Of which Iizuka is affiliated with of course. If you're trying to claim he's not associated with any of the good they've done, you're barking up the wrong tree there, Janga.

Hell, he's SEGA of America's vice president of product development. 

It goes without saying,  you're complimenting him there.

[Jango]

He is, but he is very associated to the bad/odd decisions too. Anyways...