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Sonic Forces - Story Trailer (English and Japanese)

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1 hour ago, ShroomZed said:

There's actually reason to believe that someone died here, since you see them bloody die. You don't see anyone die in Sonic 2 8-bit, and Eggman really isn't the sort just to kill off someone. He'd keep Tails held up wherever he is and use this to mock Sonic and to frustrate him. And besides just because one SEGA game did it doesn't mean anything. 

And I can put "2 and 2 together" like anyone else, I just don't choose the juvenile fanfic ending since it didn't happen. 

Look man, you might not have sonic 3 ingrained into your memory like I do but...when you fight the first boss in that game and he shoots fire at you...he's trying to freaking kill you (and tails since he's with you)! I don't see why it would make any difference whether its in the the heat of battle or not...he's the bad guy, that's what bad guys do! You could argue all you want that Eggman is only doing it to make ends meet, but to say he wouldn't kill anyone sounds much more fanficy to me.

Did we all forget how much controversy THIS caused...

(Plus there's that mincemeat moment...)

Saying Eggman doesn't want to kill Tails or Sonic is like saying Bowser doesn't want to kill Mario or Luigi...its poposterous!

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27 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Sonic does not have a house. Sega stated that awhile back I was pretty sure. He may be a sport about it but he has stated time and time again its not to beat him he wants to kill off sonic.

File:SonicLabyrinth GG JP manual.pdf

Remember that time Eggman snuck into Sonic's house, and didn't kill him? 

Alright, to be fair Labyrinth's probably not canon, but even so I can't recall a situation like you've described; rather, the opposite. Eggman wants to beat Sonic for the express purpose of finally beating him and having the last laugh with Eggmanland. Assuming Sonic is captured in Forces as the trailer (and IIRC his JP site bio) suggests, that's probably why he doesn't just kill Sonic off the second he's in captivity; cuz that's not him. He's there to gloat as he takes over the world in Sonic's face. 

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Just now, Alienrun said:

Look man, you might not have sonic 3 ingrained into your memory like I do but...when you fight the first boss in that game and he shoots fire at you...he's trying to freaking kill you (and tails since he's with you)! I don't see why it would make any difference whether its in the the heat of battle or not...he's the bad guy, that's what bad guys do! You could argue all you want that Eggman is only doing it to make ends meet, but to say he wouldn't kill anyone sounds much more fanficy to me.

Did we all forget how much controversy THIS caused...

(Plus there's that mincemeat moment...)

Saying Eggman doesn't want to kill Tails or Sonic is like saying Bowser doesn't want to kill Mario or Luigi...its poposterous!

Sonic 3 is my favourite game of all time so I think I know it well, thanks. And yes, when you are fighting him, he wants to get rid of you. Because you're in his way and in his plan's way. But he doesn't just abduct people on random and kill them. That's not Eggman. When Eggman wants to get things done, anything that's in his way is in the line of fire but he doesn't destroy and kill everything for the sake of it. This isn't damn SatAM. 

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For petes sake, it's like you're are expecting Sonic to constantly ask questions to the Avatar and keep expecting answers with awkward silence.

There could easily be one scene Sonic goes "You don't talk much do you?" and the rest of the game you simply can reply with nods.

Ever heard of silent protagonists? It's a common trait of custom characters in video games, the Avatar doesn't have to talk.

Jeez...

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Eggman strikes me as more of a "the ends justify the means" villain.

He'll use ancient gods and incredible power, energy extracted from aliens, even MOON CANNONS to achieve his goals. He'll do anything, basically. He is not the type to go out and annihilate everything he sees, but if he has to kill or threaten someone to achieve his goals, he'll do it.

SA2 alone has two good examples. Eggman blows up half the moon to say "I've got a powerful cannon, so listen to what I say!" And hey, it kinda worked. People were terrified of him. And then he tries to get a Chaos Emerald from Sonic, and holds Amy at gunpoint to get it. It worked, he gets the emerald and sends out Sonic to his assumed death, just to get his one obstacle out of the way.

He won't willingly kill, but if he HAS to for his goals, he will.

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3 minutes ago, Jango said:

Yes. Great writing. People complained about Heroes, but at least the interaction between the characters was genuine.

Plenty of good game scripts have gotten around well even with mute protagonists. I'm not seeing the point in your claim with how this is somehow notably different and allegedly horrid by comparison.

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18 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

Sonic 3 is my favourite game of all time so I think I know it well, thanks. And yes, when you are fighting him, he wants to get rid of you. Because you're in his way and in his plan's way. But he doesn't just abduct people on random and kill them. That's not Eggman. When Eggman wants to get things done, anything that's in his way is in the line of fire but he doesn't destroy and kill everything for the sake of it. This isn't damn SatAM. 

Oh my...Eggman isn't trying to kill Sonic here don't you worry! He's just wants sonic out of his way! Forget that he's holding Amy hostage or that he thinks that he killed sonic...that doesn't mean anything! In fact let's just pretend that didn't happen

Also regarding Sonic 3...if Eggman hits you and you have no rings you die, that settles it. You can't tell me "its an accident" because that is the point in putting death in a video game, I'm not sure how you can remember running away from a battle ship throwing bombs at you and not think for a second that Eggman isn't trying to kill you!

For crying out loud...wanting to kill someone doesn't automatically make you some physcotic maniac! That's not what I'm saying!

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1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

@Ferno posted this in the status updates:

When even Shadow the Hedgehog is getting the basics of a character right compared to the other game, you know you have crummy writing

Watching the game's original Japanese script kind of makes Eggman's line here make more sense. "At this rate, there won't be a place left for me to build my Eggman Empire" sounds better than "How can I take over the city and build the Eggman Empire if there is no city."

I usually don't like to argue semantics though. The idea of having an argument over one odd word used in a trailer sounds ridiculous and shouldn't be something people think too hard about. We know he wants to take over the world and that he doesn't want to destroy it. The trailer also said that 99% of it was already conquered by him, so he's definitely doing that in the game. 

If the issue is the fact that he's destroying something... he does that too. Once he was so pissed off that he tried to fire a missile into the middle of Station Square. His intention was still to build the Empire on top of it. Though even in that game, he made it sound like it HAD to be that city which is weird.

On a side note, going through the original script for some of these games is really interesting. You guys should give it a go.

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6 minutes ago, Alienrun said:

Oh my...Eggman isn't trying to kill Sonic here don't you worry! He's just wants sonic out of his way! Forget that he's holding Amy hostage or that he thinks that he killed sonic...that doesn't mean anything! In fact let's just pretend that didn't happen

Also regarding Sonic 3...if Eggman hits you and you have no rings you die, that settles it. You can't tell me "its an accident" because that is the point in putting death in a video game, I'm not sure how you can remember running away from a battle ship throwing bombs at you and not think for a second that Eggman isn't trying to kill you!

For crying out loud...wanting to kill someone doesn't automatically make you some physcotic maniac! That's not what I'm saying!

Do you even read what I say? I said when Eggman is out for something everything is possibly in the line of fire. And Eggman is a fucking psychotic maniac, but a crafty one. Jesus Christ man, do you know a thing about Eggman? 

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6 hours ago, Jack the Rookie said:
21745160_368137223619810_1502635049_o.jp
 
My favorite wisp has been confirmed. Yay
 

I'm just gonna squeeze in here for a sec and say that I'm even more surprised that they might actually allow the Drill Wisp to be used in 3D space now. And seemingly anywhere now? ... I'm really curious how they're going to attack that. I'm guessing a Mario Sunshine esque "see through" camera cone view as you plow through all the dirt? 

At the same time though, I could see them completely re-purposing the drill like some sword slash/ drill swing attack (they do got those Gurren Lagann glasses to match, too) like they did with the cube, especially with how they're pulling off the level design above... I can't imagine them adding any more depth going underground. If they do go the first route, maybe we're finally one step closer to actually getting some damn water levels in 3D?

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3 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

Do you even read what I say? I said when Eggman is out for something everything is possibly in the line of fire. And Eggman is a fucking psychotic maniac, but a crafty one. Jesus Christ man, do you know a thing about Eggman? 

There was a lot of crap I was saying that you ignored. You made the bold claim that Eggman doesn't want to kill sonic, and I said that was BS. Its not realistic to randomly turn off your instinctual desire to kill your arch nemesis and his friends. (A problem I have with the newer writing) If Eggman wants to "take over the world" or whatever he'll do what he can to get that, which includes killing sonic.

...That, however, DOESN'T mean that he will only kill sonic if he's actively trying to physically take over the world. He tries to take over the world over and over and over again...I think that would make someone more harsh towards their victim, not sympathetic!

I'm honestly surprised you haven't brought up the ending of Sonic X, because that is actually a good example that favors your claim...which is why I don't think its that unrealistic to say that Sega didn't have that in mind when they made the character...

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38 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

Sonic 3 is my favourite game of all time so I think I know it well, thanks. And yes, when you are fighting him, he wants to get rid of you. Because you're in his way and in his plan's way. But he doesn't just abduct people on random and kill them. That's not Eggman. When Eggman wants to get things done, anything that's in his way is in the line of fire but he doesn't destroy and kill everything for the sake of it. This isn't damn SatAM. 

he literally destroyed the marble hill zone...marble hill pretty sure my 90s memory is right. from 3.

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1 minute ago, Alienrun said:

There was a lot of crap I was saying that you ignored. You made the bold claim that Eggman doesn't want to kill sonic, and I said that was BS. Its not realistic to randomly turn off your instinctual desire to kill your arch nemesis and his friends. (A problem I have with the newer writing) If Eggman wants to "take over the world" or whatever he'll do what he can to get that, which includes killing sonic.

...That, however, DOESN'T mean that he will only kill sonic if he's actively trying to physically take over the world. He tries to take over the world over and over and over again...I think that would make someone more harsh towards their victim, not sympathetic!

I'm honestly surprised you haven't brought up the ending of Sonic X, because that is actually a good example that favors your claim...which is why I don't think its that unrealistic to say that Sega didn't have that in mind when they made the character...

Sonic X isn't canon to any of this so I don't see a reason for it to be in this discussion. I could bring up AoStH to back up my points but I didn't. 

And I never said that he doesn't want to kill Sonic. I said that he wants to get rid of Sonic when he's in his way, and if push comes to shove than he will kill. He's like that towards anyone. And there's never been evidence of Eggman wanting to kill Sonic for no reason on some random Tuesday. Sonic had to have put a bee in his bonnet for him to do anything towards him. This may be interrupting a plan or it could even be Sonic getting more attention than him (Man of the Year) that he feels he deserves which falls under his plans in my book. Eggman wants total attention towards him, and if Sonic fucks that up Eggman's coming at him full force. But like others have said, it's always in good sport, Sonic has to make the move for him to attack. He's not going to kill Tails one day for no fucking reason. 

1 minute ago, Meta77 said:

he literally destroyed the marble hill zone...marble hill pretty sure my 90s memory is right. from 3.

OMG it's like pulling teeth...Sonic was fucking with him and was running through the Marble Garden Zone...so Eggman tore it apart to get Sonic. I'll say it again, when Eggman has a plan going, everything could be in the line of fire. 

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For the absolute love of Eggman

destroy the world as creating industries, polluting the planet to bulid his. not just blowing things up and leave it like that

destroying nature.

Eggman destroys nature.

if you want to destroy nature you are basically destroying the world. planet wisp and bad future little planet as a clear example

that's what eggman does, since 1991!

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5 minutes ago, Joseph Henry said:

For the absolute love of Eggman

destroy the world as creating industries, polluting the planet to bulid his. not just blowing things up and leave it like that

destroying nature.

Eggman destroys nature.

if you want to destroy nature you are basically destroying the world. planet wisp and bad future little planet as a clear example

that's what eggman does, since 1991!

It's like we need to hand out pamphlets to people that include basic information about Dr. Eggman or something. 

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Watching the game's original Japanese script kind of makes Eggman's line here make more sense. "At this rate, there won't be a place left for me to build my Eggman Empire" sounds better than "How can I take over the city and build the Eggman Empire if there is no city."

I usually don't like to argue semantics though. The idea of having an argument over one odd word used in a trailer sounds ridiculous and shouldn't be something people think too hard about. We know he wants to take over the world and that he doesn't want to destroy it. The trailer also said that 99% of it was already conquered by him, so he's definitely doing that in the game. 

If the issue is the fact that he's destroying something... he does that too. Once he was so pissed off that he tried to fire a missile into the middle of Station Square. His intention was still to build the Empire on top of it. Though even in that game, he made it sound like it HAD to be that city which is weird.

On a side note, going through the original script for some of these games is really interesting. You guys should give it a go.

I disagree. If it was just between a city existing in the first place vs some flat ground, what difference does that make to him? He can just build his factories and theme parks on uninhabited land like he always had in the classics. Going to the trouble of blowing up a city and killing everyone in the process, just to rebuild another city in it's wake, is dumb. Extremely dumb. Eggman is an egomaniac. He plasters his face on everything, tries to make the ultimate theme park every chance he gets, and models his robots after animals into his own take on them.

And though the series has never outright, explicitly stated his intentions as so, would such a person, who even sets up PA systems and sends out propaganda to the world, want to
 

A: Kill and enslave everyone to do his bidding as he sits alone in a throne room

Or

B: Keep people and cities alive (and avoid major PR scandles) so that they can actually enjoy said ultimate theme park, heap praises onto him, and allow him to control the world so that he can craft it in his genius image?
 

I mean obviously the series has never outright stated this, so I can't stand behind it to the same certainty as people who... say he kills anyone and everyone would. And his plans can change as time goes on, and he inevitibly gets more frustrated with everything. Colors had him attempt to outright mind control everyone as the end-game of Colors, after all. But the point is... mind controlling everyone is a

BILLION

times more fitting narrative than nuking his own species and an entire city, and far more fitting with his character and motivations.


First and foremost, before any missles hitting station square, before announcing war on nations and preforming military strikes, before all of this, Eggman was an egomaniac who plastered his face on everything, who built nature polluting factories and destroyed the environment because he didn't care, and who's ultimate goal was to built the ultimate theme park. Which is still his end goal to this day.

This is why the Adventure games had shite writing for him and was no where close to how he's supposed to be. *runs*

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