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Sonic Forces - Story Trailer (English and Japanese)

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I guess the Death Egg doesn't exist 

Oh, there are plenty other examples besides that...but I speak absolutely, so I just have to deal with that mistake.

 

I mean, you said that as if I was saying it never happened though...so I don't understand that.

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1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

Oh, there are plenty other examples besides that...but I speak absolutely, so I just have to deal with that mistake.

 

I mean, you said that as if I was saying it never happened though...so I don't understand that.

Well, you said it in a way like it was something you don't see very much, meanwhile the Death Egg, the death star with his face plastered right on it is the main weapon of the classic games. 

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1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

Oh, there are plenty other examples besides that...but I speak absolutely, so I just have to deal with that mistake.

 

I mean, you said that as if I was saying it never happened though...so I don't understand that.

My point is that this has always been a prominent trait of the character. Not just that he did it, but that he did it blatantly and often, throughout the classic games.

Eggman's narcissism has been one of his defining traits since the beginning, and isn't a result of later writers adding something to him that didn't exist before.

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1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

I disagree. If it was just between a city existing in the first place vs some flat ground, what difference does that make to him? He can just build his factories and theme parks on uninhabited land like he always had in the classics. Going to the trouble of blowing up a city and killing everyone in the process, just to rebuild another city in it's wake, is dumb. Extremely dumb. Eggman is an egomaniac. He plasters his face on everything, tries to make the ultimate theme park every chance he gets, and models his robots after animals into his own take on them.

I agree with some of that though. I never argued that him blowing up a city and killing everyone in the process to build his city on top of it was a good idea... although, in some cases it could be, depending on the situation. Again, it's just one city. I don't know why he cares so much about it. 

I'm definitely pushing for a more balanced, non-black and white way of how he tends to do things here.

As such it actually confused me when I was reading this reply. I had no clue what you were disagreeing with me on. I still kind of don't, to be honest, but I think I got it right.

 

1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

And though the series has never outright, explicitly stated his intentions as so, would such a person, who even sets up PA systems and sends out propaganda to the world, want to
 

A: Kill and enslave everyone to do his bidding as he sits alone in a throne room

Or

B: Keep people and cities alive (and avoid major PR scandles) so that they can actually enjoy said ultimate theme park, heap praises onto him, and allow him to control the world so that he can craft it in his genius image?
 

I mean obviously the series has never outright stated this, so I can't stand behind it to the same certainty as people who... say he kills anyone and everyone would. And his plans can change as time goes on, and he inevitibly gets more frustrated with everything. Colors had him attempt to outright mind control everyone as the end-game of Colors, after all. But the point is... mind controlling everyone is a

BILLION

times more fitting narrative than nuking his own species and an entire city, and far more fitting with his character and motivations.


First and foremost, before any missles hitting station square, before announcing war on nations and preforming military strikes, before all of this, Eggman was an egomaniac who plastered his face on everything, who built nature polluting factories and destroyed the environment because he didn't care, and who's ultimate goal was to built the ultimate theme park. Which is still his end goal to this day.

This is why the Adventure games had shite writing for him and was no where close to how he's supposed to be. *runs*

Did you think I was trying to argue that him killing everyone was what he wanted to do? If so then you misunderstood what I was trying to say. 

I said he wants to conquer the world. When I wrote the word "conquer" I seperated it intentionally from "destory" because to me "conquering" IS enslaving and taking the areas over. I didn't assume he was killing everyone. 

I also said that he destroys things sometimes too despite that and used what he did in Adventure 1 as an example of a time where he's sometimes driven to get too ticked off. But again, I didn't consider that to be a sign of him utilizing that for everything he does. Again, it's just a single city. I suppose him wanting to tear that city down and build Eggmanland on top of it could make more sense if it's just the hub area for where he wants his base of operations to be, as well as a symbol to all the other territories out there about what could happen should they oppose him. There's a lot of interesting stuff to think about.

As for the Adventure Games comment, that's something I'll have to disagree with. Because again, I don't actually believe he was someone who was outright just trying to kill everyone. 

Actually, I think that might explain why I was SO confused reading this reply. We have two differing opinions on how Eggman was portrayed in the Adventure games and what his actions and intentions were. That's probably why you're arguing posing the black and white notions of him killing everyone versus enslaving everyone when the whole time I was already assuming he was enslaving everyone but wasn't impartial to destroying things to do it or set examples when he could.

I think I cracked the case there. I was actually REALLY confused by what you were disagreeing with me on. I was seriously about to just reply with "I didn't argue any of this. Why are you talking about him killing literally EVERYONE?"

 

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He didn't actually plaster his face until Adventure, no. Poor wording on my end. He uses his face all the time, but there was no logo yet, no.

The Adventure developers giving him an insignia like that, was a brilliant move imo

The Adventure writers throwing in that one scene where he basically cries over spilt milk and decides to nuke a city on a whim, was not

's bad writing

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1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

He didn't actually plaster his face until Adventure, no. Poor wording on my end. He uses his face all the time, but there was no logo yet, no.

The Adventure developers giving him an insignia like that, was a brilliant move imo

The Adventure writers throwing in that one scene where he basically cries over spilt milk and decides to nuke a city on a whim, was not

's bad writing

I dunno if I'd consider it bad writing. 

The fact that it was a dud and that he had to go and set it off himself was definitely lazy writing though.

Again, I think we just have too differing opinions on how Eggman is.

For as awful as a lot of Sonic Lost World's writing was, I actually really like that exchange he and Sonic have after Eggman saves Tails from being crushed by one of his robots.

"I can't figure you out. One moment you're contemplating genocide, the next you're saving one of your worst enemies."

And Eggman's response was just "I'm a complicated guy."

To me he definitely has a morality to him that stretches or shrinks depending on what he feels would be most beneficial to him at the time. I would never argue that he should just be a cold blooded murderer who goes around killing indiscriminately. When I hear that he's conquered 99% of the world, I assume he's taken those areas over and enslaved the people in them. When I see him destroying Park Avenue, I assume he's tearing the city down to build his own faction of the empire. And I take that as a specific situation that could result in the loss of life but I also know that he engages in things that don't kill people too. 

So my perception of him is of a guy who does and doesn't do both. Not one or the other. It's why he's my favorite character.

I just assumed everyone else thought this too. Which was why I wasn't sure why people were having an argument about why Eggman would destroy stuff. Sometimes he destroys stuff. Sometimes he enslaves stuff. Sometimes he'll save your life.

That's Eggman to me.

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I dunno if I'd consider it bad writing. 

The fact that it was a dud and that he had to go and set it off himself was definitely lazy writing though.

I think the fact that nuking the city was plan B is most certainly lazy writing...

Should've did that first, would've produced practically the same results as Chaos on a lower scale and with less bodies.

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I think we should pull the train on the tracks again. We are sort of nearing that corner a bit to fast and the wheels are already raised.

 

Is eggman making multiple infinite's? Or are those just parts of him.

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1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

I think the fact that nuking the city was plan B is most certainly lazy writing...

Should've did that first, would've produced practically the same results as Chaos on a lower scale and with less bodies.

No, I disagree.

The fact that it was his Plan B speaks more to his character for me. Personally.

Again, going back to that whole thing about how his plan of action can change depending on what he gets out of it. Or in this case, what his mood is. 

I don't see him as someone who just goes around nuking things for the hell of it. The fact that he was driven into a corner, had his original plans ruined, and was extremely pissed off made it work for me. I'd probably be more on board with your side if he had done it that way.

Yet, at the same time, I don't have a problem with him orchestrating a full frontal assault on the city with his robots and junk in what we've seen with Forces. 

You know, I think the reason might be because I'm picturing him doing both at the same time yet again. I'm not actually picturing him killing everyone like everyone else seems to be. That might be the reason. Maybe when Forces comes out and we have the full context, I'll be able to see whether or not it fits with how I see Eggman. I'm honestly assuming he's both destroying the city and enslaving the people. They could end up not focusing on the fine details of his plan though, effectively keeping what he's fully doing up in the air yet again.

The reasoning for all this back and forth arguing is starting to make a little more sense to me now. Everyone really seems to have their own takes on Eggman's character as well as how their perceiving his actions in Forces and in the previous games.

This is really interesting. You guys are great.

 

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18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I think we should pull the train on the tracks again. We are sort of nearing that corner a bit to fast and the wheels are already raised.

 

Is eggman making multiple infinite's? Or are those just parts of him.

I'd like to think those are failed experiments, or they are like shadow clones that you never see again until later...it could be a plot point near the end if infinite desides to let out all teh other incomplete "whatevertheheck" infinite is supposed to be.

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Interesting trailer for sure, some things I like were how Robotnik seems to be in charge here, at least in these cutscenes. He's not just joking around with Sonic or bumbling around with his robots, he seems to be calling the shots here which is nice to see. Strangely enough, the thing I like is also the thing I don't like -- which is that he created Infinite (so it would appear). 

Infinites identity being shrouded in mystery to this point was an interesting story element and while it's possible Robotnik found someone from the sonic universe and somehow transformed them into Infinite, it seems more likely with how lazy the stories have been lately, that Robotnik simply created this creature as a means to harness the power of the phantom ruby. 

What I'm really worried about story wise is that the Phantom Ruby, much like in Mania, just allows the story to go where-ever the hell it wants just because. In other words, I'm thinking there won't be any explanation why Chaos, Shadow and even Zavok are back as villains other than, the phantom ruby brought them all into the same time and space and Robotnik was able to take over simply because the ruby made it so. I hope it's a bit deeper than that, but it seems like this phantom ruby is just some kind of overpowered broken element which imo is just lazy storywriting, but we'll see. If I had to guess, I'm betting that Robotnik's whole plan is undone when they somehow destroy the phantom ruby at the end of the game (I'm also willing to wager that destroying it would somehow undo the events of the game entirely and everything would just be restored to normal with no memory of it)  but I hope it's more complex than that. 

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32 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I agree with some of that though. I never argued that him blowing up a city and killing everyone in the process to build his city on top of it was a good idea... although, in some cases it could be, depending on the situation. Again, it's just one city. I don't know why he cares so much about it. 

I'm definitely pushing for a more balanced, non-black and white way of how he tends to do things here.

As such it actually confused me when I was reading this reply. I had no clue what you were disagreeing with me on. I still kind of don't, to be honest, but I think I got it right.

 

Did you think I was trying to argue that him killing everyone was what he wanted to do? If so then you misunderstood what I was trying to say. 

I said he wants to conquer the world. When I wrote the word "conquer" I seperated it intentionally from "destory" because to me "conquering" IS enslaving and taking the areas over. I didn't assume he was killing everyone. 

I also said that he destroys things sometimes too despite that and used what he did in Adventure 1 as an example of a time where he's sometimes driven to get too ticked off. But again, I didn't consider that to be a sign of him utilizing that for everything he does. Again, it's just a single city. I suppose him wanting to tear that city down and build Eggmanland on top of it could make more sense if it's just the hub area for where he wants his base of operations to be, as well as a symbol to all the other territories out there about what could happen should they oppose him. There's a lot of interesting stuff to think about.

As for the Adventure Games comment, that's something I'll have to disagree with. Because again, I don't actually believe he was someone who was outright just trying to kill everyone. 

Actually, I think that might explain why I was SO confused reading this reply. We have two differing opinions on how Eggman was portrayed in the Adventure games and what his actions and intentions were. That's probably why you're arguing posing the black and white notions of him killing everyone versus enslaving everyone when the whole time I was already assuming he was enslaving everyone but wasn't impartial to destroying things to do it or set examples when he could.

I think I cracked the case there. I was actually REALLY confused by what you were disagreeing with me on. I was seriously about to just reply with "I didn't argue any of this. Why are you talking about him killing literally EVERYONE?"

 

I'm disagreeing with you because you seem to think Eggman's character could care less if he flat out nukes a city. He'll destroy the environment and enslave animals and wisps, sure, because, well, they're different to him. He could care less. His entire premise as an antagonist from the classics was him being the environmentally hazardous industrialist, after all.

And I'm not saying he couldn't disregard human life in the same way. At the end of the day, he is only looking for appraisal and approval, after all. And as a result, he could become a forceful conqueror over repeated failed attempts to sell his genius to the world, threatening oppression towards his own kind if they don't give him what he wants. He could even go full-on militaristic if countries themselves push back on him enough. He has the robot-power, and the resources. I don't even mind the idea. I've said before that I prefer an action-cartoon kind of villain for Modern Sonic, as it gives his games a more action-focused direction with this element at their disposal. And Eggman can still be Eggman at that point, even if he'd be jaded and far less "Classic Eggman" in that regard.

But the problem is that he hasn't encountered human resistance up to that point. The only one who fights him up to that point is Sonic, because he's destroying his home, the environment, and capturing his animal friends. Eggman isn't even militarized to any significant degree at the start. It's just Sonic coming in, wrecking his factories and robotic minions, and destroying his plans in a flash. He still has yet to build any theme parks of any scale to any degree, all he's made is industrial plants and factories, and militarized against Sonic specifically to keep him from destroying his plans.

So for him to suddenly be "lol guess I'll nuke the city/take over the world through terrorism" in the Adventure games, is incredibly out of the blue for his character.

I also think you give the Adventure games far more benefit of the doubt than they should have. Was Sonic Adventure 2's direction for Eggmand and the tone of the game overall a natural evolution of the narrative? Or was it simply the writers suddenly changing that for the sake of what was "cool" at the time, in the form of shonen, government-conspiracy, war-type stories in Anime and the US? Or what about the entire situation of the nuke in station square?

"I'm finished! Chaos was defeated, and now my Egg Carrier is ruined!... No matter. I will destroy Station Square anyway!"

He's just been knocked out of the sky by Sonic, chaos was "defeated", and his Egg Carrier was knocked out of the sky, yes. But he still has an entire base to retreat to, Chaos is no more defeated than he was all the other times Sonic and Co beat him up, and he has a whole other Egg Carrier ready and waiting for him in the first place! Clearly this necessitates that he go downright murderous on his own kind, right???

Nothing about this justifies this. Even if they were retconning his character to be that militaristic conqueror all along, it still doesn't have any logical grounds other than him throwing a tantrum with no end result in mind other than "kill city = win!", because if that was the case, he should have done that in the first place.

It's completely unprovoked. It doesn't line up with his character at this point in time. It's inconsistent just because the writers wanted something to drive the stakes up. And, at the later point in SA2, it's just because the writers wanted to change the tone of the plot for marketing purposes and making Eggman "more threatening" first and foremost. And it completely betrays his main intentions and characteristics from just two official games from before. So forgive me if I don't take these... amazingly written scripts and storylines, as anything but what they are in the first place.


And yet people want this to be the basis of Eggman, as if these single examples (that were quickly discarded past 06 mind you) are indicitive of Eggman being a good character and villain? These poorly written, unjustified, OoC examples of near fanfiction? If this was the natural evolution of his character I could get behind and understand it, but come on. He's still working to build Eggmanland and acting like the same egotistical and full-of-himself Eggman as he was in the classics, after all these years! Turning a dime and suddenly using traits that go against his character, logically and contextually, because they "make a good villain" when that's never been the case, as shown by all the murderous psychopaths the series has to offer? That turn him into almost as one-note and dimensional as all of them when taken to these extremes? That's the kind of Eggman that is Eggman, all due to these poorly written examples that certain fans can't get over just yet?


You can't have Eggman go against his core motivations and concepts, even complexity as a character, just because these ideas tickle your fancy as a fan of edge itself. Just like anything a character isn't that they could be, they have to fit and earn that context. It's called character development. And Eggman has absolutely none for these kinds of concepts. It's just a "oh hey, guess I'm this kind of villain now" situation. And that's almost as bad as saying Blaze is Silver's best friend in the future one moment, and a lonely princess from another dimension the next. It's another kind of inconsistency, but it is an inconsistency nonetheless, and it diminishes Eggman's entire character in the process.

 

You know what games actually got Eggman's role in Sonic's world kinda right, for reference?

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Sonic Colors

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And Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity

 

In Colors, Eggman is still the antagonist in that he's capturing and utilizing aliens for his own power, giving the plot some drive to it, but the endgame for the planet below is mindcontrol, not destruction and terrorism. He even built the interstellar amusement park in the first place, with plenty of people already visiting it if Colors DS is anything to go by. It's writing is not perfect, but at least it fits the character, his quirks, and his relationship with the rest of the world in the most basic of ways

And when he's not even plotting to take over the world, like in Zero Gravity?

He's a simple industrial businessman who's already comfortably established in Sonic's world, much to his surprise. He's not society's outcast; he works alongside them and does business with the rest of the world for his own benefit, even enabling the rest of the world with his technology. It gives him a leg up when he actually discovers a source of power that he wants, since he has his robots all over the world at that point, but for the most part he's working alongside human society, not warring against them because he wants to build a themepark.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

At the end of the day, Eggman's not entirely benevolent towards society. He has no real reason to be outside of his own goals, none that we know of, anyway. And again, he could very well become this type of villain with enough development. I'm not even staunchly for this entirely, as I'll grant that he should "take over" at least something to give the plot more drive to it than "ohno he's hurting environment!" again and again. And especially with Forces. I can't think of any scenario where I want to see the "taken over the world" story used without him actually taking it over and ruling everyone, either through force or other means.

 

But my main problem with all this is and has always been... we're pointing towards poorly written and OoC examples of Eggman being a Murderous Terrorist, as if he should be that evil consistently. As his defining traits. It goes against so much of what makes him an interesting villain on his own merit, all for the sake of juvenile fanfiction methods of creating stakes for a plot.

I want Forces to have a good and engaging plot just as much as anyone else, as it's one of my favorite premises of them all, but...

No.

This is not what Eggman should be. Not without proper context...

And I'm not even talking about Forces for the majority of this post, but I can guarantee you that they won't expand upon this point at all. Inconsistent writing is almost as integral to Sonic as the constant gameplay changes at this point. And that inconsistency is not worth keeping unjustified outside of Forces, at the very least.

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I don't see Eggman as some ruthless murderer or anything. As great as Archie Eggman was most of the time, he kinda veered into that territory at time iirc and it didn't really appeal to me much.

That said, he's never come across to me as the type to care that much about whether people "like" him so much as "respect" him. I don't see anything wrong with him causing a bit of destruction (to, say, the level we've seen in Forces) as a general intimidation tactic. Trying to blow up a city while it was inhabited was a lot, but it was clear he was being pushed to his limits there. Like, Eggman is the epitome of villains who throw tantrums when things don't go his way.

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9 minutes ago, PanicPuppet388 said:

*Sees conversations about Eggman and wants to join in*

:D

 *Sees intimidating walls of text*

:unsure:

I'll have you know we are scholars here! We say our thoughts and we say them proper! *adjusts glasses*

 

(I'm not even that big a story fan tbh, lol. This definitely bugs me enough to post something that long, though :V)

3 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I don't see Eggman as some ruthless murderer or anything (like, as great as Archie Eggman was most of the time, he kinda veered into that territory at time iirc and it didn't really appeal to me much).

That said, he's never come across to me as the type to care that much about whether people "like" him so much as "respect" him. I don't see anything wrong with him causing a bit of destruction (to, say, the level we've seen in Forces). Trying to blow up a city while it was inhabited was a lot, but it was clear he was being pushed to his limits there. Like, Eggman is the epitome of villains who throw tantrums when things don't go his way.

Respect is probably another thing he's looking for, yeah. He's not a child looking for people to approve of him, he's a flat out genius, mad-scientist with brilliant ideas, and he wants to build his ideal world out of that vision. Respect is definitely something he'd value when he's that self-approved, lol.

It's just that an egomaniac does both. They're both assuring themselves that they and their ideas are awesome, while constantly seeking out people to tell how awesome they and their ideas are, lol. When someone disagrees, they'll get mad, shut down, and go either on the defensive or offensive, so in a way they value respect far more than approval. And that's the way that Eggman can become a good and proper antagonist, without being shallow in the process, as it's natural to his character. But I think that the mere fact that egomaniacs search for both of those among their peers, should speak volumes in what Eggman is aiming for alongside his plans for the Greatest Theme Park in the World™ as an entrepreneur. 

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2 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Is eggman making multiple infinite's? Or are those just parts of him.

If he is capable of making more Infinite's, there is still only a single P.R.

Without that, its probably not even worth the effort of making more. There is no real point.

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1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

I'm disagreeing with you because you seem to think Eggman's character could care less if he flat out nukes a city. 

Reading this felt like getting stabbed in the heart.

I probably shouldn't have brought up the example from Adventure. It's turning out to be a much more complicated thing to try and explain. 

It's odd because my feelings on that scene aren't as simple as this. I brought it up purely as an example of him "destroying something" and I felt it was a fine example to go to because it was something done in a last ditch effort out of a fit of rage, where he wasn't thinking as clearly as he was before. However, that only really highlights a side of him that goes too far when the chips are down, which would in essence be more in support of a character flaw. Probably as a gesture to show he has the capacity to go too far rather than as something that he'd normally do. So I suppose that's the reason that scene didn't bother me within it's context.

Yet at the same time, the reason I became such a huge fan of Eggman was actually because of how he was portrayed in Sonic X. Namely the third season where his role was that of a wild card. He was incredibly fun and hilarious in a way that I hadn't seen before back when I had been introduced to him in the Adventure games. His dastardly, conniving self being forced to play off the side of himself that had a moral ground was fascinating to me. Whenever he'd do something horrible or whenever he would do something benevolent, it would always fit the character and he marked himself as the most interesting man in the world to me.

So I think what's actually going on here is that I just provided a bad example. I even said in an earlier post above that I don't believe he's the kind of person to naturally kill indiscriminately. He's a complicated guy. One that fascinates me because he plays both sides really well. Now the potential for how far he can take that on both ends might be something we have varying opinions on.

I don't think the guy would necessarily have an issue with attacking a city with giant robots, missiles, and bombs. As I explained before, the idea that comes to mind when he says he wants to destroy the city and build Eggmanland isn't of him killing everyone in the process. I imagine a more war like effort where he's enslaving everyone as well as bombarding the place. Mindlessly blowing cities up like Majin Buu on a rampage isn't something I feel he'd do. 

The reason I feel I had less of an issue with the scene in Adventure mostly deals with the circumstances behind it. 

1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

He'll destroy the environment and enslave animals and wisps, sure, because, well, they're different to him. He could care less. His entire premise as an antagonist from the classics was him being the environmentally hazardous industrialist, after all.

And I'm not saying he couldn't disregard human life in the same way. At the end of the day, he is only looking for appraisal and approval, after all. And as a result, he could become a forceful conqueror over repeated failed attempts to sell his genius to the world, threatening oppression towards his own kind if they don't give him what he wants. He could even go full-on militaristic if countries themselves push back on him enough. He has the robot-power, and the resources. I don't even mind the idea. I've said before that I prefer an action-cartoon kind of villain for Modern Sonic, as it gives his games a more action-focused direction with this element at their disposal. And Eggman can still be Eggman at that point, even if he'd be jaded and far less "Classic Eggman" in that regard.

But the problem is that he hasn't encountered human resistance up to that point. The only one who fights him up to that point is Sonic, because he's destroying his home, the environment, and capturing his animal friends. Eggman isn't even militarized to any significant degree at the start. It's just Sonic coming in, wrecking his factories and robotic minions, and destroying his plans in a flash. He still has yet to build any theme parks of any scale to any degree, all he's made is industrial plants and factories, and militarized against Sonic specifically to keep him from destroying his plans.

So for him to suddenly be "lol guess I'll nuke the city/take over the world through terrorism" in the Adventure games, is incredibly out of the blue for his character.

I also think you give the Adventure games far more benefit of the doubt than they should have. Was Sonic Adventure 2's direction for Eggmand and the tone of the game overall a natural evolution of the narrative? Or was it simply the writers suddenly changing that for the sake of what was "cool" at the time, in the form of shonen, government-conspiracy, war-type stories in Anime and the US? Or what about the entire situation of the nuke in station square?

"I'm finished! Chaos was defeated, and now my Egg Carrier is ruined!... No matter. I will destroy Station Square anyway!"

He's just been knocked out of the sky by Sonic, chaos was "defeated", and his Egg Carrier was knocked out of the sky, yes. But he still has an entire base to retreat to, Chaos is no more defeated than he was all the other times Sonic and Co beat him up, and he has a whole other Egg Carrier ready and waiting for him in the first place! Clearly this necessitates that he go downright murderous on his own kind, right???

Nothing about this justifies this. Even if they were retconning his character to be that militaristic conqueror all along, it still doesn't have any logical grounds other than him throwing a tantrum with no end result in mind other than "kill city = win!", because if that was the case, he should have done that in the first place.It's completely unprovoked. It doesn't line up with his character at this point in time. It's inconsistent just because the writers wanted something to drive the stakes up. And, at the later point in SA2, it's just because the writers wanted to change the tone of the plot for marketing purposes and making Eggman "more threatening" first and foremost. And it completely betrays his main intentions and characteristics from just two official games from before. So forgive me if I don't take these... amazingly written scripts and storylines, as anything but what they are in the first place.

The bolded parts are a bit much. I didn't say anything about them being amazingly written scripts and storylines. I like them but I'll cop to their follies when I feel they've done wrong too.

I've already explained why I don't necessarily have an issue with his actions there. I also explained in an earlier post why I disagree with the notion that him resorting to the missile first would have been in line with his character. I like the fact that he started with the seemingly more controlled and non-fatalistic plan at the start and then lost control and threw that tantrum with the missile when everything went haywire. A tantrum is exactly what it was and I never denied that. I found that interesting.

That said, I'm actually not going to dismiss or disagree with what you've said here. To be honest, it's all fairly sound and it's a position that makes sense with how you're explaining it. I'm a bit miffed that I actually started out looking at this conversation, wondering why it was happening, and then ended up in the biggest one on the page with the biggest reply of them all due to a thing I was using initially as an example of something to support the idea that Eggman "destroys things".

It really was a bad example to use. I didn't want to argue about this at all.

If the issue really is just that one scene, we can ignore the fact that I used that as the example. To be honest I don't feel that strongly about it one way or the other. Especially not when it comes to something in Adventure 1 specifically, despite liking that game too. 

1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

And yet people want this to be the basis of Eggman, as if these single examples (that were quickly discarded past 06 mind you) are indicitive of Eggman being a good character and villain? These poorly written, unjustified, OoC examples of near fanfiction? If this was the natural evolution of his character I could get behind and understand it, but come on. He's still working to build Eggmanland and acting like the same egotistical and full-of-himself Eggman as he was in the classics, after all these years! Turning a dime and suddenly using traits that go against his character, logically and contextually, because they "make a good villain" when that's never been the case, as shown by all the murderous psychopaths the series has to offer? That turn him into almost as one-note and dimensional as all of them when taken to these extremes? That's the kind of Eggman that is Eggman, all due to these poorly written examples that certain fans can't get over just yet?


You can't have Eggman go against his core motivations and concepts, even complexity as a character, just because these ideas tickle your fancy as a fan of edge itself. Just like anything a character isn't that they could be, they have to fit and earn that context. It's called character development. And Eggman has absolutely none for these kinds of concepts. It's just a "oh hey, guess I'm this kind of villain now" situation. And that's almost as bad as saying Blaze is Silver's best friend in the future one moment, and a lonely princess from another dimension the next. It's another kind of inconsistency, but it is an inconsistency nonetheless, and it diminishes Eggman's entire character in the process.

 

You know what games actually got Eggman's role in Sonic's world kinda right, for reference?

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Sonic Colors

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And Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity

 

In Colors, Eggman is still the antagonist in that he's capturing and utilizing aliens for his own power, giving the plot some drive to it, but the endgame for the planet below is mindcontrol, not destruction and terrorism. He even built the interstellar amusement park in the first place, with plenty of people already visiting it if Colors DS is anything to go by. It's writing is not perfect, but at least it fits the character, his quirks, and his relationship with the rest of the world in the most basic of ways

And when he's not even plotting to take over the world, like in Zero Gravity?

He's a simple industrial businessman who's already comfortably established in Sonic's world, much to his surprise. He's not society's outcast; he works alongside them and does business with the rest of the world for his own benefit, even enabling the rest of the world with his technology. It gives him a leg up when he actually discovers a source of power that he wants, since he has his robots all over the world at that point, but for the most part he's working alongside human society, not warring against them because he wants to build a themepark.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

At the end of the day, Eggman's not entirely benevolent towards society. He has no real reason to be outside of his own goals, none that we know of, anyway. And again, he could very well become this type of villain with enough development. I'm not even staunchly for this entirely, as I'll grant that he should "take over" at least something to give the plot more drive to it than "ohno he's hurting environment!" again and again. And especially with Forces. I can't think of any scenario where I want to see the "taken over the world" story used without him actually taking it over and ruling everyone, either through force or other means.

 

But my main problem with all this is and has always been... we're pointing towards poorly written and OoC examples of Eggman being a Murderous Terrorist, as if he should be that evil consistently. As his defining traits. It goes against so much of what makes him an interesting villain on his own merit, all for the sake of juvenile fanfiction methods of creating stakes for a plot.

I want Forces to have a good and engaging plot just as much as anyone else, as it's one of my favorite premises of them all, but...

No.

This is not what Eggman should be. Not without proper context...

And I'm not even talking about Forces for the majority of this post, but I can guarantee you that they won't expand upon this point at all. Inconsistent writing is almost as integral to Sonic as the constant gameplay changes at this point. And that inconsistency is not worth keeping unjustified outside of Forces, at the very least.

My point was simply that I don't think the Eggman your describing to be the issue is necessarily the Eggman that's in Forces.

I completely agree with everything else you've said here.

Which is why I seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY believe something was lost in translation with this conversation because I wasn't arguing FOR any of what you were talking about to happen. 

If you're actually accusing me of believeing I want the kind of Eggman you're talking about there (I don't think you are but if so) then I may actually feel a little personally offended. As though my intelligence was insulted and everything I've ever written in support of the character up to this point has been outright ignored. 

I hated Eggman in Colors but it wasn't because of his plan. It was his portayal and how the shitty writing made him incompetent.

I hated Eggman in 06, because not only was he incompetent, but he was that extremely boring, stoic, lazy example of a super edgelord villain that you've described here.

Are there really people out there who want Eggman to be like that? I have differing opinions on WHAT constitutes him being the middle-grounded, interesting character that he is certainly but is there anyone arguing that he should be super grim-dark evil?

Like I said before, those lines in Lost World were my favorite for a reason. The instance where Sonic points out that he'll be all for destroying a place one instant and saving his worst enemy another because he's a "Complicated Guy" was the best line in the game to me, because of just how much it encapsulates his character.

I feel horrible having read this. Maybe it wasn't directed at me and it was just a way to vent your frustrations at a certain subset of the fanbase but that example I brought up was literally not supposed to be anywhere near as far-reaching as all of this. I didn't say anything about the Adventure games having super amazing writing or about wanting Eggman to be that horrible cliche you described in your post.

It was literally just supposed to help contextualize the fact that I don't have an issue with him rampaging in a city. But the example I grabbed was of an instance where he flat out tried to nuke one. And it was one I used because in my mind, the situation and context surrounding it was a bit more interesting because it wasn't something he'd initially do. 

If my take on why he did it is actually wrong and it really was just bad writing then I'm actually firmly on your side. Because then the intrigue behind why I found it alright is gone. 

So yes, I wasn't sure why you were disagreeing with me.

But I get it now.

 

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Have I REALLY been that fucking huge of a crusader for the writing in the Adventure game's stories? I feel like I haven't really talked a whole lot about them at all aside from the occassional mention of how much fun I found their adventures to be. Those were mostly used as examples of why I like action and adventure in Sonic games for the sake of allowing things to happen within the narrative.

The conversation about Eggman's portrayal as a character has truly turned out to be something far more outreaching and complicated then I gave it credit for. The reason I gave for not having an issue with the missile had everything to do with the fact that it wasn't something he'd normally do in the right frame of mind. And yet, I do find myself seeing the issue with HOW extreme it was, when put against how he's portrayed later down the line.

Not for nothing, that fun side of Eggman I was introduced to in Sonic X, IS the reason he became my favorite character. I love the side of him that can be a high-functioning thinker with a militaristic edge to him and yet also play himself off as extremely goofy because his passion for doing what he does reaches cartoonish levels.

And yet I don't have a problem with what I'm seeing here with Forces at all, most likely, because my opinion on where the buck stops with him is just at a different capacity than someone who does. 

As someone who didn't grow up with the Classics, I can probably chalk this up to reasonably viewing his acts of terrorism well within the boundaries of what he's capable of doing without a single thought. As such, I DO consider him destroying cities and building his playgrounds on top of them to be well within what his character is capable of while remaining middle-grounded and fun-loving.

I can see him demolishing a city but enslaving the people who don't suffer the fatalities as something he'd do in a more focused, concerted effort to take over everything. Yet, I don't have the full context for it. That's mostly what's tripping me up.

If he actually is JUST murdering everyone and nuking cities indiscriminately... than no. I'm not okay with that. 

That's not Eggman to me either. Yet, people who have the same basic idea of what Eggman should be can still be at odds because they have different ideas of where he stops and where he starts. It might even be because of how we've grown up with the character. 

Again though, I doubt the story's going to go too in-depth with what the imagery here is suggesting. I guess I just figured it was natural he'd attack a city like this, enslave the residents, then build his monuments over its ruins. I never once considered that he was just murdering everyone. 

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1 minute ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Reading this felt like getting stabbed in the heart.

I probably shouldn't have brought up the example from Adventure. It's turning out to be a much more complicated thing to try and explain. 

It's odd because my feelings on that scene aren't as simple as this. I brought it up purely as an example of him "destroying something" and I felt it was a fine example to go to because it was something done in a last ditch effort out of a fit of rage, where he wasn't thinking as clearly as he was before. However, that only really highlights a side of him that goes to far when the chips are down, which would in essence be more in support of a character flaw. Probably as a gesture to show he has the capacity to go too far rather than as something that he'd normally do. So I suppose that's the reason that scene didn't bother me within it's context.

Yet at the same time, the reason I became such a huge fan of Eggman was actually because of how he was portrayed in Sonic X. Namely the third season where his role was that of a wild card. He was incredibly fun and hilarious in a way that I hadn't seen before back when I had been introduced to him in the Adventure games. His dastardly, conniving self being forced to play off the side of himself that had a moral ground was fascinating to me. Whenever he do something horrible or whenever he would do something benevolent, it would always fit the character and he marked himself as the most interesting man in the world to me.

So I think what's actually going on here is that I just provided a bad example. I even said in an earlier post above that I don't believe he's the kind of person to naturally kill indiscriminately. He's a complicated guy. One that fascinates me because he plays both sides really well. Now the potential for how far he can take that on both ends might be something we have varying opinions on.

I don't think the guy would necessarily have an issue with attacking a city with giant robots, missiles, and bombs. As I explained before, the idea that comes to mind when he says he wants to destroy the city and build Eggmanland isn't of him killing everyone in the process. I imagine a more war like effort where he's enslaving everyone as well as bombarding the place. Mindlessly blowing cities up like Majin Buu on a rampage isn't something I feel he'd do. 

The reason I feel I had less of an issue with the scene in Adventure mostly deals with the circumstances behind it. 

The bolded parts are a bit much. I didn't say anything about them being amazingly written scripts and storylines. I like them but I'll cop to their follies when I feel they've done wrong too.

I've already explained why I don't necessarily have an issue with his actions there. I also explained in an earlier post why I disagree with the notion that him resorting to the missile first would have been in line with his character. I like the fact that he started with the seemingly more controlled and non-fatalistic plan at the start and then lost control and threw that tantrum with the missile when everything went haywire. A tantrum is exactly what it was and I never denied that. I found that interesting.

That said, I'm actually not going to dismiss or disagree with what you've said here. To be honest, it's all fairly sound and it's a position that makes sense with how you're explaining it. I'm a bit miffed that I actually started out looking at this conversation, wondering why it was happening, and then ended up in the biggest one on the page with the biggest reply of them all due to a thing I was using initially as an example of something to support the idea that Eggman "destroys things".

It really was a bad example to use. I didn't want to argue about this at all.

If the issue really is just that one scene, we can ignore the fact that I used that as the example. To be honest I don't feel that strongly about it one way or the other. Especially not when it comes to something in Adventure 1 specifically, despite liking that game too. 

My point was simply that I don't think the Eggman your describing to be the issue is necessarily the Eggman that's in Forces.

I completely agree with everything you've said here.

Which is why I seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY believe something was lost in translation with this conversation because I wasn't arguing FOR any of what you were talking about to happen. 

If you're actually accusing me of believeing I want the kind of Eggman you're talking about there (I don't think you are but if so) then I may actually feel a little personally offended. As though my intelligence was insulted and everything I've ever written in support of the character up to this point has been outright ignored. 

I hated Eggman in Colors but it wasn't because of his plan. It was his portayal and how the shitty writing made him incompetent.

I hated Eggman in 06, because not only was he incompetent, but he was that extremely boring, stoic, lazy example of a super edgelord villain that you've described here.

Are there really people out there who want Eggman to be like that? I have differing opinions on WHAT constitutes him being the middle-grounded, interesting character that he is certainly but is there anyone arguing that he should be super grim-dark evil?

Like I said before, those lines in Lost World were my favorite for a reason. The instance where Sonic points out that he'll be all for destroying a place one instant and saving his worst enemy another because he's a "Complicated Guy" was the best line in the game to me, because of just how much it encapsulates his character.

I feel...horrible having read this. Maybe it wasn't directed at me and it was just a way to vent your frustrations at a certain subset of the fanbase but that example I brought up was literally not supposed to be anywhere near as far-reaching as all of this. I didn't say anything about the Adventure games having super amazing writing or about wanting Eggman to be that horrible cliche you described in your post.

It was literally just supposed to help contextualize the fact that I don't have an issue with him rampaging in a city. But the example I grabbed was of an instance where he flat out tried to nuke one. And it was one I used because in my mind, the situation and context surrounding it was a bit more interesting because it wasn't something he'd initially do. 

If my take on why he did it is actually wrong and it really was just bad writing then I'm actually firmly on your side. Because then the intrigue behind why I found it alright is gone. 

So yes, I wasn't sure why you were disagreeing with me but now I do. You think I'm an idiot. 

Fuck.

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Whoa wth, no I don't.... I'm sorry if I came off that way, dude... oof...

Yeah, I'm kinda directing most of my ire towards that scene and how people tend to latch onto it, and SA2, as WoG for how dark Eggman should be. And yes, they exist. Their feelings are probably slightly more complicated on the matter, too, but I see it brought up so often in "tone of the series" discussions that it just bothers the crap out of me, lol. I bring up why I don't think the writing is good because people, again, treat the Adventure series as the WoG on how Sonic stories should be made, and the idea is never considered that maybe, just maybe, those parts of the stories are pretty naff and ridiculously OoC for their time, rather than representing how the series is on a foundation level like they want these scenes to be. I know your thoughts are more complicated than that from your past posts on other forums, though, so I'm sorry I didn't give any credit and came off that way... 

I don't think that his ability to have tantrums is bad, or uninteresting, either. I liked Sonic X Eggman for that same reason, as well, lol. When he displays this kind of behavior towards his enemies, or Sonic and Co, I think it's great. His portrayal fits pretty well into his character's basis in the first place, as well, and clearly everyone else loved it, as it's been the direction since then.

There's a difference between Sonic X Eggman and Games!Eggman, though. In Sonic X he was thrown into an entirely different world that wasn't his own. That means, even if the inhabitants were human just like him, he's not really affiliated with them, and probably doesn't care that much about them in the first place. It makes sense for him to go all warmonger if he's not that familiar with them, just like Sonic's woodland friends or the wisps, despite their similarities. Though I don't even know if he has plans to build an Eggmanland in that show or not tbh. If he has no ambitions for that, it makes even more sense.

It just isn't the same context as the games, though, nor do I think it benefits his character in terms of motivation, as the egotist he is. It's like any other megalomaniac tyrant who wants to conquer the world, just with a bit of a personality quirk with how in your face he is. I'd be up for it if they showed his development into that kind of a man, as a slow realization that no one wants what he has to offer, but his refusal to give up and flat out resort to force to realize it, is nicely complex, at the sacrifice of what used to make him more nuanced as a megalomaniac.

I just don't think it's worth giving up without that development, despite my preferences.

 

Again, sorry if I came off that way. I didn't mean to offend... I agree with you on a lot of things most of the time. I just see this pop up in so many arguments, I felt like pointing it out in a post. You commented on it, and you sorta got caught in the "crossfire" of sorts, I guess... I mean absolutely no disrespect, and I sincerely apologise if I offended in any way. :(

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1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

Whoa wth, no I don't.... I'm sorry if I came off that way, dude... oof...

Yeah, I'm kinda directing most of my ire towards that scene and how people tend to latch onto it, and SA2, as WoG for how dark Eggman should be. And yes, they exist. Their feelings are probably slightly more complicated on the matter, too, but I see it brought up so often in "tone of the series" discussions that it just bothers the crap out of me, lol. I bring up why I don't think the writing is good because people, again, treat the Adventure series as the WoG on how Sonic stories should be made, and the idea is never considered that maybe, just maybe, those parts of the stories are pretty naff and ridiculously OoC for their time, rather than representing how the series is on a foundation level like they want these scenes to be. I know your thoughts are more complicated than that from your past posts on other forums, though, so I'm sorry I didn't give any credit and came off that way... 

I don't think that his ability to have tantrums is bad, or uninteresting, either. I liked Sonic X Eggman for that same reason, as well, lol. When he displays this kind of behavior towards his enemies, or Sonic and Co, I think it's great. His portrayal fits pretty well into his character's basis in the first place, as well, and clearly everyone else loved it, as it's been the direction since then.

There's a difference between Sonic X Eggman and Games!Eggman, though. In Sonic X he was thrown into an entirely different world that wasn't his own. That means, even if the inhabitants were human just like him, he's not really affiliated with them, and probably doesn't care that much about them in the first place. It makes sense for him to go all warmonger if he's not that familiar with them, just like Sonic's woodland friends or the wisps, despite their similarities. Though I don't even know if he has plans to build an Eggmanland in that show or not tbh. If he has no ambitions for that, it makes even more sense.

It just isn't the same context as the games, though, nor do I think it benefits his character in terms of motivation, as the egotist he is. It's like any other megalomaniac tyrant who wants to conquer the world, just with a bit of a personality quirk with how in your face he is. I'd be up for it if they showed his development into that kind of a man, as a slow realization that no one wants what he has to offer, but his refusal to give up and flat out resort to force to realize it, is nicely complex, at the sacrifice of what used to make him more nuanced as a megalomaniac.

I just don't think it's worth giving up without that development, despite my preferences.

 

Again, sorry if I came off that way. I didn't mean to offend... I agree with you on a lot of things most of the time. I just see this pop up in so many arguments, I felt like pointing it out in a post. You commented on it, and you sorta got caught in the "crossfire" of sorts, I guess... I mean absolutely no disrespect, and I sincerely apologise if I offended in any way. :(

Don't apologize. I read through what I wrote initially and edited the post because it was clear I was starting to take it way too personally. 

Eggman's my favorite Sonic character so I took it to the heart a bit more than I should have when reading something that seemingly was suggesting that the reasons behind why I like him were all fallacies. But I even made mention of the fact that that's probably not what you were actually doing in the post and still took it the wrong way. 

I'm the one who should apologize for that. I'm sorry about that.

So yes, I absolutely do see where you're coming from and even agree with you to some extent that the Eggman portrayed by those Adventure games are not how he should ideally be. That, of course, explains why he didn't become my favorite until Sonic X, because despite finding him cool and threatening, he wasn't really in the camp of someone who had enough layers to wholey make him completely interesting. Plus, he didn't get me jumping up and down on my bed as a little kid yelling "GO EGGMAN! GO EGGMAN! GO EGGMAN! GO! GO!" until I saw that anime. XD

Basically, I think it comes down to the Adventure games being more of a foundation for how I saw the character going forward rather than the norm. I'm perfectly okay with him demolishing cities and such but I'm not okay with him going on a murderous rampage with no clear goal in sight. To be honest, despite the reasoning behind finding what he did in the first Adventure to be interesting, the more you've laid out your position, the more I'm inclined to agree when it comes to that scene. It's incredibly hard to explain because I really, really don't give THAT much of a shit about that missile scene on it's own but I do feel like it's hard for me to ignore the fact that I, as someone who doesn't like the idea of Eggman being a murderous tyrant, also didn't have too much of a problem with it.

It's a bit baffling to me as well so I generally do think that it all comes down to where you see the cap for his behavior ending. I see Eggman as the kind of guy who would destroy a city the way he is in the Park Avenue level when a certain opportunity and plan afforded him the ability to but also taking aims to enslave and capture all the people within the area, regardless if it were human life or animal life.  I just feel he's the kind of guy to lump all life together with what he wishes to do. I also don't necessarily believe he'd do this for every city because the circumstances behind why he would could undoubtedly be different depending on what's going on within each scenario.

However, if the Park Avenue thing in Forces turns out to be him actually murdering everyone in the city and nothing else, for example... then I'd hate that. I'd absolutely find that deplorable and a betrayal of what I believe Eggman should be.

There were times where his actions in the comics would go too far concerning the kind of Eggman I want him to be.

And that god awful Sonic movie on Youtube where he said "Humanity is a privilege" and was noted to just be murdering people in a random fit of rage...

Yeah. I really do think it's just an unfortunate stigma of having a different cap for what's acceptable from him. It's true that he's a different Eggman in the games then the one in Sonic X. Ironically, in Sonic X he was a lot more ethical at times too. His ideal for making the Eggman Empire basically boiled down to "All I care about is creating the Eggman Empire. I can do that on my planet or yours. It really doesn't matter to me."

So in the end, I don't really know where we could and should universally agree upon where his character pushes the envelope.

There's arguments to be had for why him destroying a city is fine and why it's not. And all of them boil down to the fine details behind what he's trying to accomplish and why. But at the same time, everyone has different takes on what those fine details mean.

Ironically, a good example actually is that missile scene this time. It meant something completely different to me then you and it was all based around the circumstances of what we thought the character was trying to do.

If anything this conversation goes to show how complicated a character Eggman truly is at the end of the day.

 

 

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What I really noticed about the trailer is how much context it gives to the theme song. Everything suddenly made sense.

 

About the theory of removing classic Sonic from a timeline and Silver asking Modern Sonic for help, that would make a lot of sense, but Eggman also says sth like 'prepare youself Sonic. I put all my years of hatred into this.' It lessens the impact of that theory, unless Eggman is really good at holding grudges from Sonic 1, 2, 3, &knuckles and mania. 

I'm confused now nvm. 

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