Tails' role in Forces.

[speedfreak]

Tails dies so Miles Prower can live on.

[Sega DogTagz]

Generations ducked a lot of the issues of a mute protagonist by having almost no story. There was so little exposition that Classic Sonic not being able to speak didn't make as much of a difference. They won't be able to hide behind that crutch if what is shaping up to be a more... engrossing story effort.

Classic is going to need someone at his side, someone to voice his opinions for him, lest his cut scenes devolve into points and emotes. Of all the characters in the series, Tails fits that bill the best. He can give exposition, and without ties to the Resistance, is free to travel the globe alongside another Sonic.

This problem is doubled down thanks to the Avatar being mute. Sonic can't be the mouthpiece for both Classic and Avatar. Tails fills in that role. It gives him a prominent part of the story (similar to Knux) and it fits what we've seen.

[Dr. Detective]

Tails's roll will be a Spicy Tuna roll served with a side of Soy Sauce.

No Wasabi though. The last time he tried that he couldn't shit right for weeks.

It was ALMOST as bad as the Bucket O' Sushi incident.

[Kuzu]

OK, so if Tails doesn't come back with a scene like this, I'mma gonna be massively disappointed.

Spoiler

 

 

 

On the real tip, it does explain why he isn't the leader of the group. He's too demoralized, so naturally Knuckles would be the next in line after Sonic & Tails are out of comission.

[Red Hot Jack]

I think he will become Classic Sonic's guide since he has his own plot and he doesn't speak, Tails will basically be his mouth.

[RedFox99]

33 minutes ago, Jack the Rookie said:

I think he will become Classic Sonic's guide since he has his own plot and he doesn't speak, Tails will basically be his mouth.

I like that idea. It could help develop Tails as being independent and possible a sort of leader-like character.

[JingleBoy]

I feel as though a lot of people are forgetting that Tails is just a kid. He's probably scared, especially considering that Sonic (who is basically like his older brother) has been defeated by Infinite. 

[shdowhunt60]

On 9/15/2017 at 7:21 AM, JingleBoy said:

I feel as though a lot of people are forgetting that Tails is just a kid. He's probably scared, especially considering that Sonic (who is basically like his older brother) has been defeated by Infinite. 

Okay, nevermind the things he's accomplished before, what narrative sense does the explanation even make? What do we tell the audience when we have Tails behave like this?

That he's not capable of being a hero in his own right.

Either way you look at it, Tails is a weaker character because of it.

[StaticMania]

There'll never be a moment where Tails does anything action related outside of game-play...

People should just accept that, because it has yet to happen in anything he's been in...

[shdowhunt60]

If people were to accept that, we'd have accepted it 8 years ago. Just like we'd just accept that Sonic games were to be mediocre.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

I think Tails is actually separated from Sonic after Sonic's beatdown from Infinite. Tails then runs into Classic Sonic, and the two kind of get their own side-story separate from the rest. 

[TailsTellsTales]

Well it seems we now know what Tails role is afterall. And I can say it is definitely out of his character. Getting freaked out over your everyday badnik is not the Tails we know. Hopefully next time he is not made to be so scared. Afterall he did personally stood up to Dr. Eggman before and took him head on.

[Diogenes]

Ok so. I'm not going to say that Tails' role/characterization/etc in this game is good, because it's definitely not.

But I think it's not quite as bad as people have taken it.

I guess I'll spoil this just in case...also because it's kinda long. Lotta late night rambling.

Spoiler

To start, unless I'm forgetting something, I think there are only two scenes where Tails is actively "bad", as opposed to just pushed to the sidelines due to not being a playable character, which is at least as true of every other resistance member so I don't consider it a flaw with how they handled Tails specifically. The two scenes are when Sonic gets his ass kicked by the villains, and when Classic shows up and bops Chaos.

Starting with the earlier scene, the first accusation is that he's shown cowering at a group of ordinary egg pawns. Which is true, but, let's consider the context of the scene. Tails knew, since the start of Modern GHZ, that Eggman's forces were invading City Zone. Does he run off and hide somewhere? No. What he does is, he puts himself between those robots and innocent civilians. Rather than just cowering uselessly, it's implied he's there to help people, it's just that we only see the part where he's been driven into a corner, about to be perforated by laser fire along with the people he was trying to protect. We even get to see him help them a bit; after Sonic takes his first hit from fake Shadow, you can see Tails waving them down the nearest alley, helping them evacuate a dangerous situation. It's not the most glamorous part of being a hero, but it's important nonetheless. Also I feel I owe the game some credit for actually showing that, rather than just having the civilians vanish between cuts; I didn't catch it before, and I sure as hell forgot about them between cuts until I reviewed the scene for this.

Now, you can argue that Tails should be able to take out some egg pawns, or at least that we should've seen him try rather than just see him cowering. And I would agree with that, to an extent, but I would like to say that I don't see it as them trying to make Tails out as a coward or anything like that, but a combination of them not characterizing modern Tails as a front line fighter (for better or worse; I'm not judging it, just pointing out the fact of it) and protagonist supremacy, where nearabout every problem ends up being solved by one of the playable characters while NPCs contribute little to nothing (which, as I mentioned above, is a problem that goes far beyond Tails). I don't point these out as a wholehearted defense of Tails' characterization and use, but as an explanation for it; it's not a matter of targeting or botching Tails specifically, but a combination of a deliberate characterization that a lot of people dislike and a general approach to NPCs that rarely shows them in a good light.

Also, small detail but, it's actually a group of the tougher variety of egg pawns, the kind with more guns and visor eyes instead of circle eyes. That's not something you'd know the first time viewing the scene and I could forgive you for not realizing there's a difference at all considering how useless all egg pawns are in gameplay, but regardless, it's a thing. Tails is at least cowering at the beefier versions of the game's enemies and not the "stand there and do nothing" type.

The second accusation is that he does nothing to help Sonic fight Infinite and the illusory villains. It's true that he doesn't physically get into the fight, due to the two issues I mentioned above, but he is not doing nothing, either. Modern Tails isn't a front line fighter; he's a techy support character. He doesn't jump in and get his hands dirty, he tries to analyze Infinite and find a weakness to help Sonic beat him. He fails, of course, but that's because this is the start of the game, the villain is showing off his powers to establish him as a threat, and if he figured things out this early there wouldn't be much of a game (in fact figuring out just what Infinite's powers are and how to fight them is a significant part of the story). And this is not in fact a betrayal of Tails' Adventure-era character development, but a fulfillment of it...just in a form that people aren't fond of. Tails' development wasn't just about being brave and fighting the bad guys himself, it was about becoming a hero in his own way, rather than just imitating Sonic. "I wanna be like him", but also "this is not my way, my style". Even within the almost sacrosanct Adventure era we see this shift; what's he doing in SA2, running fast and jumping at enemies? Nah, he built a fuckin' mech, with lasers and shit. And even Sonic, as he's getting his ass kicked, doesn't see this as weakness or a betrayal of who Tails is; he doesn't ask Tails to fight, he just hopes Tails can figure something out that'd help, because he knows being the brains of Team Sonic is what Tails is best at.

So, the second scene. Tails ends up cowering at arguably the weakest of the fake villains (considering its only Chaos 0 and not any of his advanced forms). It doesn't look great, but again, context. Tails may be brilliant and he may have helped save the world more than a few times, but he's still a child. And his hero and idol has been presumed dead for six months, during which his greatest enemy has taken over virtually the entire world and all hope seems lost. Silver had it right in an earlier scene; Tails has lost it. If you looked towards Forces with hope of a serious story with real consequences, this is the shit you should be eating up. Hard to get more serious than a kid being emotionally broken over his friend's apparent murder and a dictatorial takeover of the entire planet. Personally though I find it pretty tone deaf, and the almost complete lack of followup on these issues means it completely fails as an arc...but I can see the intent behind it. The scene doesn't exist to shit on Tails, it exists as an attempt to develop him as a realistic character. Which, even though it was a failure overall, shows more care for the character than the game shows for Mr I'm Not Weak, or the utter void that is Classic Sonic, or the eternally sidelined resistance.

And regarding the comparisons to Sonic's "death" in SA2...I'll spare you a rant on the benefits of a reboot allowing for justifiable recycling of plot points in new contexts compared to a long and bloated series essentially using up avenues for character development, and instead focus on the wildly different contexts. In SA2 he essentially had a mission from Sonic to focus on; it was Sonic's show of trust in him that kept him from falling into despair, and he was able to channel his emotions into fighting Eggman right then and there. Also, he found out Sonic was alive like 10 minutes later; he barely even had time to think about being sad before it turned out Sonic was fine. Compare to Forces where he spends 6 months watching Eggman and Infinite wreck shit with no sign of Sonic having survived. Had Sonic gone missing or actually died in SA2, and without all the Gerald shit to interrupt Eggman's plan, after 6 months I could believe Tails would be as fucked up as he was in Forces.

So...yeah. After some consideration, I feel it's actually all the other parts of the game that truly failed Tails, more than these two scenes. Rather than being actively badly written, he just ends up being sidelined and forgotten, for a whole bunch of shit that didn't actually mean anything.

 

[___-_]

Hmm, I'm going to have to strongly disagree on the scenes you brought up Diogenes. Sorry about this long ass essay =P. I'll keep it in spoilers, too. If I misinterpreted anything or unclear on something, let me know as I apologize. I wrote this pretty late and on and off, haha.

Spoiler

With the first scene you mentioned, with Eggman ordering his Eggpawns to bring intimidation to the city in Sonic Forces, sure those series of robots Eggman brought with him are of a stronger line, but when you consider the fact that Tails went up against so much more and deadlier prior to the events of Sonic Forces, it just makes that whole entire scene ridiculous.

In Sonic Adventure, Tails also had a group of civilians behind his back that he had to protect from Eggman in Station Square. It's almost the same exact scenario as in Forces where Tails is fending for his civilians against Eggman in Sunset Heights. The key differences here between the Sonic Adventure scene I'm mentioning and the Sonic Forces scene are that in Sonic Adventure:

1: Eggman is noticeably more pissed than ever, making it completely personal stating he would end Tails and the people around him.

2: Eggman is in his Egg Walker, which was what Tails was up against. This machine is shooting missiles, bombs, creating shockwaves, jumping many yards high, is many stories tall and is plenty durable. We're literally talking last boss, here.

The stakes are way higher for Tails in this moment, because not only is he fighting a "no jokes" Eggman this time, this was his very first moment to really prove that he could handle it alone without Sonic, and really anyone else (The little guy literally says prior that "I can't depend on Sonic forever." when Sonic was missing as Eggman tries to detonate Station Square with a rocket). And what does he do? He comes to terms with the situation he's in despite how scared he really is, and he beats him. And it's not just the fact that he wins, too, it's the fact that he even tried knowing his odds. Also, the civilians recognize he's a hero, too. His heroism and growth since past games are just conveyed strongly here.

In Forces, Tails just looked like he wasn't going to do ziltch if no one came by. The Eggpawns, his main opposition, were literally stopped in one hit each by Sonic. Immediately right there should tell you they're of no comparison to the Egg Walker. The worst part of this scene is, Tails has already gone through this situation before! What changed since then? The stakes here are far lower, where we're dealing with a more visibly hammy Eggman (who was most likely going to simply capture Tails like he did with Sonic in order for them to see his finished empire in the coming months before disposing them), the same guy Tails has beaten plenty times single handedly, yet he's more scared than ever now, where he even says that Sonic was "cutting it close!" when arriving, pretty much confirming that he had no answers to Eggman either way? I'm sorry, but that's just complete nonsense to me.

It is good to see that Tails has at least escorted the civilians away as I didn't even notice it until you pointed that out, too, but in a better written and more consistent scenario, those civilians would be regaining confidence as Tails does what he can against the Eggpawns, whether through Spin Dashing, his arm canon or his mech, all three at once, etc, until Sonic and Fake Shadow arrived, not have a 1 second glimpse of Tails escorting them away that the player would hardly notice, with the scene prior having him as scared as the rest from simple fodder. It does his character no good having the scene shot the way it was. The scene should've been reiterated with his strengths played out stronger, because it really just makes it look like Tails is one of the towns folk, and it's worse that they keep up this motif as the game goes on with no type of arc to gain from.

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About the second point where you mention Sonic vs Infinite and his illusion league, when you bring up that "Modern Tails isn't a front line fighter; he's a techy support character. He doesn't jump in and get his hands dirty"... That's precisely the problem. He shouldn't JUST be the techy guy. He's both the tech guy and a fighter... at least that's what he once was. It just completely undermines what he's done before Forces.

When you bring up the point such as, "Tails' development wasn't just about being brave and fighting the bad guys himself, it was about becoming a hero in his own way, rather than just imitating Sonic."  ... I'm on the exact same page as you; his very own Tornado 2 and mech was a way to truly start calling a once 1:1 clone character his very own.

But then you bring up that  "Even Sonic, as he's getting his ass kicked, doesn't see this as weakness or a betrayal of who Tails is; he doesn't ask Tails to fight, he just hopes Tails can figure something out that'd help"  when Tails just watches how Infinite and his gangs beats up Sonic. The story doesn't play out the way you're describing, however, which is really where the game frustrates me with. Your line of thinking for Forces is that Sonic's hypothetically depending on, if the writing was consistent, Adventure era - Pre Forces Tails. 

In reality, Sonic's depending on Forces Tails, which was where he fucked up, because it was clearly ill fated and nearly doomed the world after Sonic's absence with how he gave up on everybody.

In Sonic Adventure 2, while on Prison Island, while trying to release Sonic from prison, Amy was doing her usual Amy shenanigans, stumbled upon and confused Shadow for Sonic before finding out Team Dark was there on the island, too. Meanwhile, Tails was in the middle of his own plans to save Sonic until coming across Amy who was standing over the edge over the ocean with Eggman's pretty much having his way with her. What happens? No questions asked, by his own call, Tails stops what he needed to do immediately and jumps in between the both of them for another boss fight. 

Contrasting with SA2's Tails scene, Forces Tails just sits behind a rock and watches afar as Infinite's whole team of evil are juggling Sonic around. Tails cops out with a scanner, which isn't bad initially since, as you already put it, is Tails own form of helping out, but then he sees Sonic's not knowing the best of the situation yet still just follows whatever Sonic tells him to do instead of wising up and jumping in regardless, seeing how it was clearly pointless collecting wrong data knowing it's not saving Sonic in that moment. It's just common sense to put the damn scanner down and help out because the situation was already at it's worst, but we don't get the luxury of having a character acting rationally irrational here. Then Tails's just completely broken for 6 months when finding out Sonic is gone and just stops scanning anyway (Did he just watch Eggman / Infinite drag Sonic away? Because clearly he wasn't dead, and what use does Eggman have with a dead body? But it conveniently cuts to text by that point to not explain how exactly Tails even got the mindset he ended up with after. That intel on Eggman's whereabouts could have been really helpful for the resistance 6 months in advance if Tails didn't just squander around immediately).

Before I forget to mention, I know you're just pointing out why you could see Sonic Team went about the way they did with Tails's writing, for prioritizing main character focus and all that, but still though, they didn't have to write it the way they did for the story to unfold to begin with. There's nothing saying that in order for Forces to be made, they had to have Tails stand around just to prove how big and bad Eggman and Infinite are and have become, and give the illusion that Sonic grew in power from that first fight going to their next battles and all that. A scenario like that doesn't even have to be in the beginning of the game to get things rolling. Meanwhile, just look at what they did with Shadow, Silver... actually, just look at what they did with literally EVERYONE  besides Tails in this game. At least everyone else got to at least throw a punch in some form. Tails is literally the only one who can't even be privileged enough to merely defend himself for some reason. Silver may have got beaten by infinite in their initial fight, but at least they've written it so that Silver had some sort of relevance and was actually holding his own. The NPC excuse doesn't fly with me when you have literally every other NPC at least having some form of contribution to the battle and continue this throughout the entire game.

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For your Chaos point, it's essentially the same as my first point regarding vs Eggman and the Eggpawns. Whoever's perspective truly was the right one to follow between Sonic and Tails, whether they fought it together or not, one thing's for sure is that Tails has fought Chaos 4. Then you factor in the myriad of Chaos clones in SA2 he fought alone and is experienced with. The point of the matter is, Tails has gone through this already, and worse! You bring up the point that "he's still a child" , but Tails was even younger back then when dealing with Chaos's first introduction. So why is he scared now when he should've been experienced? Why is he screaming for Sonic and is so helpless that he cant even defend himself when we had a game before that said he can't depend on him forever? And why does it take a Classic Sonic for something Modern Tails should've and already have easily handled with with one bop to the head? It makes no sense! The 6 months passing I can't excuse because Tails was evidently already doing absolutely nothing against fodder prior to Sonic's absence and after his return.

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About your point stating, "Silver had it right in an earlier scene; Tails has lost it. If you looked towards Forces with hope of a serious story with real consequences, this is the shit you should be eating up." ...I'm not one of those people looking for that. I'm just mainly looking for a good and consistent story within the Sonic series.

Realistically, Tails should have kept fighting on the minute he saw Sonic on the ground KO'd. He spent part of his life learning from Sonic, and as Sonic rubbed off onto him, he then learned later on that he can be his very own, and that's not a realization that didn't come with it's trials and hardship. We had several games, stages and boss battles keeping this consistent.

It's completely inconsistent and unrealistic to have this character just suddenly break mentally the minute his now sudden lord and savior loses when this wasn't the first time he's dealt with such a situation. He doesn't even check if he's alright post battle. Like... but then he just snaps into his senses A-OK the minute he sees a different dimensional version of a person he thought died 6 months ago? What? I guess to hell with all his loved ones unless any version of Sonic's there for him apparently, because those other guys are nowhere near as significant and can't do shit. Is that really what he learned from his Sonic after following him after all this time?

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About the SA2 "death" point, In SA2, this was at a point in time where barely anyone knew about Chaos Control, let alone having Sonic being able to perform it, let alone with a Fake Chaos Emerald created by Tails. As far as Tails knew, Sonic blew up in space with no way of escape! That's a very gruesome thought in of itself. It's way more plausible to believe Sonic's passing and fitting to be spiritually broken there, as It was only a miracle Sonic got out of that situation. Even then, Tails still held up consistently character wise and fought for Sonic while still being morally down when he thought he fulfilled Sonic's last request. Tails knew to save those feelings after the fight, even if it was short lived.

In contrast to that, with Forces, we have Tails who immediately gives up and breaks mentally in the start of Eggman's victory because Sonic's laying on the fucking ground over a little tussle between Infinite and his illusions? And then we cut to a black screen with text saying "Sonic has been defeated"? Naaaaaaaah, lol. I'm going to need way more than that if they want me to believe Tails's sudden downfall. Again, what was even stopping Tails from not allowing Eggman and the rest from capturing Sonic? Why does he immediately give up knowing full well Sonic has gotten out of way worse situations than that? The fact that Tails didn't get captured with him tells me he didn't do squat to check to see if Sonic was alright. He just stood behind that rock and cried, or else Eggman just went home like an idiot and let Tails go (It's not like Eggman didn't know he was there, especially after screaming out Sonic's name)... even though he yells at Infinite for letting Sonic escape.... There's really nothing implying that Sonic even died right then and there to even give up all hope, too, because Eggman captured him, which should've gave Tails on going purpose to rescue Sonic and stop them well before 6 months passed since Eggman decided to be stupid or overly cocky enough to allow him to walk off with his scanner to allow him to pick up readings on his locations later on. Bottom line is, something's not adding up here.

 

TLDR: It's pretty much a "Been there, done that." situation that I'd expect Forces Tails to follow, given all that he's gone through that lead up to this moment in the series, yet for some reason, he's acting wildly dependent and weak in literally every situation he's in. For every past game that had Tails fighting for his friends, saying "I can't depend on Sonic forever!", with every following scene backing up his mantra when Sonic's missing is directly combated by Forces Tails screaming "Help me Sonic!", giving up without a fight and dooming his friends the minute Sonic wasn't there to save him.

Edit: Sorry about that double post. don't know how that happened

[dbzfan7]

Nice post. I didn't really want to argue this point as I've gotten kinda tired of trying to justify my stance in other places, but you hit the nail on the head.

In story telling, if you want a character to not fall into incompetency, you need strong moments. Weak moments are there to show a character is not invincible or infallible. But too many weak moments and that's just all a character is. Which is why for me at least Sonic had way too many strong moments and hardly any weak ones, so he basically became practically invincible, which wasn't interesting to watch or play as.

To me I fell for Tails because he wasn't just a generic techy stereotype. He's like my second favourite turtle Donatello where brains and physical attributes wrapped into one. They were smart, clever, and plenty capable of holding their own. Not particularly the most powerful or skilled of their group, but damn resourceful in every conceivable way possible. 

I made a video actually compiling all of Clement's rants as well as some of my own thoughts. I haven't seen it in a long while so I don't know if I agree with everything I said. I know I was pretty miffed at the time while making it. It's also shittily edited together I'll say that XD
 

 

[SpongicX]

8 hours ago, StriCNYN3 said:

Hmm, I'm going to have to strongly disagree on the scenes you brought up Diogenes. Sorry about this long ass essay =P. I'll keep it in spoilers, too. If I misinterpreted anything or unclear on something, let me know as I apologize. I wrote this pretty late and on and off, haha.

  Reveal hidden contents

With the first scene you mentioned, with Eggman ordering his Eggpawns to bring intimidation to the city in Sonic Forces, sure those series of robots Eggman brought with him are of a stronger line, but when you consider the fact that Tails went up against so much more and deadlier prior to the events of Sonic Forces, it just makes that whole entire scene ridiculous.

In Sonic Adventure, Tails also had a group of civilians behind his back that he had to protect from Eggman in Station Square. It's almost the same exact scenario as in Forces where Tails is fending for his civilians against Eggman in Sunset Heights. The key differences here between the Sonic Adventure scene I'm mentioning and the Sonic Forces scene are that in Sonic Adventure:

1: Eggman is noticeably more pissed than ever, making it completely personal stating he would end Tails and the people around him.

2: Eggman is in his Egg Walker, which was what Tails was up against. This machine is shooting missiles, bombs, creating shockwaves, jumping many yards high, is many stories tall and is plenty durable. We're literally talking last boss, here.

The stakes are way higher for Tails in this moment, because not only is he fighting a "no jokes" Eggman this time, this was his very first moment to really prove that he could handle it alone without Sonic, and really anyone else (The little guy literally says prior that "I can't depend on Sonic forever." when Sonic was missing as Eggman tries to detonate Station Square with a rocket). And what does he do? He comes to terms with the situation he's in despite how scared he really is, and he beats him. And it's not just the fact that he wins, too, it's the fact that he even tried knowing his odds. Also, the civilians recognize he's a hero, too. His heroism and growth since past games are just conveyed strongly here.

In Forces, Tails just looked like he wasn't going to do ziltch if no one came by. The Eggpawns, his main opposition, were literally stopped in one hit each by Sonic. Immediately right there should tell you they're of no comparison to the Egg Walker. The worst part of this scene is, Tails has already gone through this situation before! What changed since then? The stakes here are far lower, where we're dealing with a more visibly hammy Eggman (who was most likely going to simply capture Tails like he did with Sonic in order for them to see his finished empire in the coming months before disposing them), the same guy Tails has beaten plenty times single handedly, yet he's more scared than ever now, where he even says that Sonic was "cutting it close!" when arriving, pretty much confirming that he had no answers to Eggman either way? I'm sorry, but that's just complete nonsense to me.

It is good to see that Tails has at least escorted the civilians away as I didn't even notice it until you pointed that out, too, but in a better written and more consistent scenario, those civilians would be regaining confidence as Tails does what he can against the Eggpawns, whether through Spin Dashing, his arm canon or his mech, all three at once, etc, until Sonic and Fake Shadow arrived, not have a 1 second glimpse of Tails escorting them away that the player would hardly notice, with the scene prior having him as scared as the rest from simple fodder. It does his character no good having the scene shot the way it was. The scene should've been reiterated with his strengths played out stronger, because it really just makes it look like Tails is one of the towns folk, and it's worse that they keep up this motif as the game goes on with no type of arc to gain from.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

About the second point where you mention Sonic vs Infinite and his illusion league, when you bring up that "Modern Tails isn't a front line fighter; he's a techy support character. He doesn't jump in and get his hands dirty"... That's precisely the problem. He shouldn't JUST be the techy guy. He's both the tech guy and a fighter... at least that's what he once was. It just completely undermines what he's done before Forces.

When you bring up the point such as, "Tails' development wasn't just about being brave and fighting the bad guys himself, it was about becoming a hero in his own way, rather than just imitating Sonic."  ... I'm on the exact same page as you; his very own Tornado 2 and mech was a way to truly start calling a once 1:1 clone character his very own.

But then you bring up that  "Even Sonic, as he's getting his ass kicked, doesn't see this as weakness or a betrayal of who Tails is; he doesn't ask Tails to fight, he just hopes Tails can figure something out that'd help"  when Tails just watches how Infinite and his gangs beats up Sonic. The story doesn't play out the way you're describing, however, which is really where the game frustrates me with. Your line of thinking for Forces is that Sonic's hypothetically depending on, if the writing was consistent, Adventure era - Pre Forces Tails. 

In reality, Sonic's depending on Forces Tails, which was where he fucked up, because it was clearly ill fated and nearly doomed the world after Sonic's absence with how he gave up on everybody.

In Sonic Adventure 2, while on Prison Island, while trying to release Sonic from prison, Amy was doing her usual Amy shenanigans, stumbled upon and confused Shadow for Sonic before finding out Team Dark was there on the island, too. Meanwhile, Tails was in the middle of his own plans to save Sonic until coming across Amy who was standing over the edge over the ocean with Eggman's pretty much having his way with her. What happens? No questions asked, by his own call, Tails stops what he needed to do immediately and jumps in between the both of them for another boss fight. 

Contrasting with SA2's Tails scene, Forces Tails just sits behind a rock and watches afar as Infinite's whole team of evil are juggling Sonic around. Tails cops out with a scanner, which isn't bad initially since, as you already put it, is Tails own form of helping out, but then he sees Sonic's not knowing the best of the situation yet still just follows whatever Sonic tells him to do instead of wising up and jumping in regardless, seeing how it was clearly pointless collecting wrong data knowing it's not saving Sonic in that moment. It's just common sense to put the damn scanner down and help out because the situation was already at it's worst, but we don't get the luxury of having a character acting rationally irrational here. Then Tails's just completely broken for 6 months when finding out Sonic is gone and just stops scanning anyway (Did he just watch Eggman / Infinite drag Sonic away? Because clearly he wasn't dead, and what use does Eggman have with a dead body? But it conveniently cuts to text by that point to not explain how exactly Tails even got the mindset he ended up with after. That intel on Eggman's whereabouts could have been really helpful for the resistance 6 months in advance if Tails didn't just squander around immediately).

Before I forget to mention, I know you're just pointing out why you could see Sonic Team went about the way they did with Tails's writing, for prioritizing main character focus and all that, but still though, they didn't have to write it the way they did for the story to unfold to begin with. There's nothing saying that in order for Forces to be made, they had to have Tails stand around just to prove how big and bad Eggman and Infinite are and have become, and give the illusion that Sonic grew in power from that first fight going to their next battles and all that. A scenario like that doesn't even have to be in the beginning of the game to get things rolling. Meanwhile, just look at what they did with Shadow, Silver... actually, just look at what they did with literally EVERYONE  besides Tails in this game. At least everyone else got to at least throw a punch in some form. Tails is literally the only one who can't even be privileged enough to merely defend himself for some reason. Silver may have got beaten by infinite in their initial fight, but at least they've written it so that Silver had some sort of relevance and was actually holding his own. The NPC excuse doesn't fly with me when you have literally every other NPC at least having some form of contribution to the battle and continue this throughout the entire game.

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For your Chaos point, it's essentially the same as my first point regarding vs Eggman and the Eggpawns. Whoever's perspective truly was the right one to follow between Sonic and Tails, whether they fought it together or not, one thing's for sure is that Tails has fought Chaos 4. Then you factor in the myriad of Chaos clones in SA2 he fought alone and is experienced with. The point of the matter is, Tails has gone through this already, and worse! You bring up the point that "he's still a child" , but Tails was even younger back then when dealing with Chaos's first introduction. So why is he scared now when he should've been experienced? Why is he screaming for Sonic and is so helpless that he cant even defend himself when we had a game before that said he can't depend on him forever? And why does it take a Classic Sonic for something Modern Tails should've and already have easily handled with with one bop to the head? It makes no sense! The 6 months passing I can't excuse because Tails was evidently already doing absolutely nothing against fodder prior to Sonic's absence and after his return.

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About your point stating, "Silver had it right in an earlier scene; Tails has lost it. If you looked towards Forces with hope of a serious story with real consequences, this is the shit you should be eating up." ...I'm not one of those people looking for that. I'm just mainly looking for a good and consistent story within the Sonic series.

Realistically, Tails should have kept fighting on the minute he saw Sonic on the ground KO'd. He spent part of his life learning from Sonic, and as Sonic rubbed off onto him, he then learned later on that he can be his very own, and that's not a realization that didn't come with it's trials and hardship. We had several games, stages and boss battles keeping this consistent.

It's completely inconsistent and unrealistic to have this character just suddenly break mentally the minute his now sudden lord and savior loses when this wasn't the first time he's dealt with such a situation. He doesn't even check if he's alright post battle. Like... but then he just snaps into his senses A-OK the minute he sees a different dimensional version of a person he thought died 6 months ago? What? I guess to hell with all his loved ones unless any version of Sonic's there for him apparently, because those other guys are nowhere near as significant and can't do shit. Is that really what he learned from his Sonic after following him after all this time?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

About the SA2 "death" point, In SA2, this was at a point in time where barely anyone knew about Chaos Control, let alone having Sonic being able to perform it, let alone with a Fake Chaos Emerald created by Tails. As far as Tails knew, Sonic blew up in space with no way of escape! That's a very gruesome thought in of itself. It's way more plausible to believe Sonic's passing and fitting to be spiritually broken there, as It was only a miracle Sonic got out of that situation. Even then, Tails still held up consistently character wise and fought for Sonic while still being morally down when he thought he fulfilled Sonic's last request. Tails knew to save those feelings after the fight, even if it was short lived.

In contrast to that, with Forces, we have Tails who immediately gives up and breaks mentally in the start of Eggman's victory because Sonic's laying on the fucking ground over a little tussle between Infinite and his illusions? And then we cut to a black screen with text saying "Sonic has been defeated"? Naaaaaaaah, lol. I'm going to need way more than that if they want me to believe Tails's sudden downfall. Again, what was even stopping Tails from not allowing Eggman and the rest from capturing Sonic? Why does he immediately give up knowing full well Sonic has gotten out of way worse situations than that? The fact that Tails didn't get captured with him tells me he didn't do squat to check to see if Sonic was alright. He just stood behind that rock and cried, or else Eggman just went home like an idiot and let Tails go (It's not like Eggman didn't know he was there, especially after screaming out Sonic's name)... even though he yells at Infinite for letting Sonic escape.... There's really nothing implying that Sonic even died right then and there to even give up all hope, too, because Eggman captured him, which should've gave Tails on going purpose to rescue Sonic and stop them well before 6 months passed since Eggman decided to be stupid or overly cocky enough to allow him to walk off with his scanner to allow him to pick up readings on his locations later on. Bottom line is, something's not adding up here.

 

TLDR: It's pretty much a "Been there, done that." situation that I'd expect Forces Tails to follow, given all that he's gone through that lead up to this moment in the series, yet for some reason, he's acting wildly dependent and weak in literally every situation he's in. For every past game that had Tails fighting for his friends, saying "I can't depend on Sonic forever!", with every following scene backing up his mantra when Sonic's missing is directly combated by Forces Tails screaming "Help me Sonic!", giving up without a fight and dooming his friends the minute Sonic wasn't there to save him.

Hmm, I'm going to have to strongly disagree on the scenes you brought up Diogenes. Sorry about this long ass essay =P. I'll keep it in spoilers, too. If I misinterpreted anything or unclear on something, let me know as I apologize. I wrote this pretty late and on and off, haha.

  Reveal hidden contents

With the first scene you mentioned, with Eggman ordering his Eggpawns to bring intimidation to the city in Sonic Forces, sure those series of robots Eggman brought with him are of a stronger line, but when you consider the fact that Tails went up against so much more and deadlier prior to the events of Sonic Forces, it just makes that whole entire scene ridiculous.

In Sonic Adventure, Tails also had a group of civilians behind his back that he had to protect from Eggman in Station Square. It's almost the same exact scenario as in Forces where Tails is fending for his civilians against Eggman in Sunset Heights. The key differences here between the Sonic Adventure scene I'm mentioning and the Sonic Forces scene are that in Sonic Adventure:

1: Eggman is noticeably more pissed than ever, making it completely personal stating he would end Tails and the people around him.

2: Eggman is in his Egg Walker, which was what Tails was up against. This machine is shooting missiles, bombs, creating shockwaves, jumping many yards high, is many stories tall and is plenty durable. We're literally talking last boss, here.

The stakes are way higher for Tails in this moment, because not only is he fighting a "no jokes" Eggman this time, this was his very first moment to really prove that he could handle it alone without Sonic, and really anyone else (The little guy literally says prior that "I can't depend on Sonic forever." when Sonic was missing as Eggman tries to detonate Station Square with a rocket). And what does he do? He comes to terms with the situation he's in despite how scared he really is, and he beats him. And it's not just the fact that he wins, too, it's the fact that he even tried knowing his odds. Also, the civilians recognize he's a hero, too. His heroism and growth since past games are just conveyed strongly here.

In Forces, Tails just looked like he wasn't going to do ziltch if no one came by. The Eggpawns, his main opposition, were literally stopped in one hit each by Sonic. Immediately right there should tell you they're of no comparison to the Egg Walker. The worst part of this scene is, Tails has already gone through this situation before! What changed since then? The stakes here are far lower, where we're dealing with a more visibly hammy Eggman (who was most likely going to simply capture Tails like he did with Sonic in order for them to see his finished empire in the coming months before disposing them), the same guy Tails has beaten plenty times single handedly, yet he's more scared than ever now, where he even says that Sonic was "cutting it close!" when arriving, pretty much confirming that he had no answers to Eggman either way? I'm sorry, but that's just complete nonsense to me.

It is good to see that Tails has at least escorted the civilians away as I didn't even notice it until you pointed that out, too, but in a better written and more consistent scenario, those civilians would be regaining confidence as Tails does what he can against the Eggpawns, whether through Spin Dashing, his arm canon or his mech, all three at once, etc, until Sonic and Fake Shadow arrived, not have a 1 second glimpse of Tails escorting them away that the player would hardly notice, with the scene prior having him as scared as the rest from simple fodder. It does his character no good having the scene shot the way it was. The scene should've been reiterated with his strengths played out stronger, because it really just makes it look like Tails is one of the towns folk, and it's worse that they keep up this motif as the game goes on with no type of arc to gain from.

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About the second point where you mention Sonic vs Infinite and his illusion league, when you bring up that "Modern Tails isn't a front line fighter; he's a techy support character. He doesn't jump in and get his hands dirty"... That's precisely the problem. He shouldn't JUST be the techy guy. He's both the tech guy and a fighter... at least that's what he once was. It just completely undermines what he's done before Forces.

When you bring up the point such as, "Tails' development wasn't just about being brave and fighting the bad guys himself, it was about becoming a hero in his own way, rather than just imitating Sonic."  ... I'm on the exact same page as you; his very own Tornado 2 and mech was a way to truly start calling a once 1:1 clone character his very own.

But then you bring up that  "Even Sonic, as he's getting his ass kicked, doesn't see this as weakness or a betrayal of who Tails is; he doesn't ask Tails to fight, he just hopes Tails can figure something out that'd help"  when Tails just watches how Infinite and his gangs beats up Sonic. The story doesn't play out the way you're describing, however, which is really where the game frustrates me with. Your line of thinking for Forces is that Sonic's hypothetically depending on, if the writing was consistent, Adventure era - Pre Forces Tails. 

In reality, Sonic's depending on Forces Tails, which was where he fucked up, because it was clearly ill fated and nearly doomed the world after Sonic's absence with how he gave up on everybody.

In Sonic Adventure 2, while on Prison Island, while trying to release Sonic from prison, Amy was doing her usual Amy shenanigans, stumbled upon and confused Shadow for Sonic before finding out Team Dark was there on the island, too. Meanwhile, Tails was in the middle of his own plans to save Sonic until coming across Amy who was standing over the edge over the ocean with Eggman's pretty much having his way with her. What happens? No questions asked, by his own call, Tails stops what he needed to do immediately and jumps in between the both of them for another boss fight. 

Contrasting with SA2's Tails scene, Forces Tails just sits behind a rock and watches afar as Infinite's whole team of evil are juggling Sonic around. Tails cops out with a scanner, which isn't bad initially since, as you already put it, is Tails own form of helping out, but then he sees Sonic's not knowing the best of the situation yet still just follows whatever Sonic tells him to do instead of wising up and jumping in regardless, seeing how it was clearly pointless collecting wrong data knowing it's not saving Sonic in that moment. It's just common sense to put the damn scanner down and help out because the situation was already at it's worst, but we don't get the luxury of having a character acting rationally irrational here. Then Tails's just completely broken for 6 months when finding out Sonic is gone and just stops scanning anyway (Did he just watch Eggman / Infinite drag Sonic away? Because clearly he wasn't dead, and what use does Eggman have with a dead body? But it conveniently cuts to text by that point to not explain how exactly Tails even got the mindset he ended up with after. That intel on Eggman's whereabouts could have been really helpful for the resistance 6 months in advance if Tails didn't just squander around immediately).

Before I forget to mention, I know you're just pointing out why you could see Sonic Team went about the way they did with Tails's writing, for prioritizing main character focus and all that, but still though, they didn't have to write it the way they did for the story to unfold to begin with. There's nothing saying that in order for Forces to be made, they had to have Tails stand around just to prove how big and bad Eggman and Infinite are and have become, and give the illusion that Sonic grew in power from that first fight going to their next battles and all that. A scenario like that doesn't even have to be in the beginning of the game to get things rolling. Meanwhile, just look at what they did with Shadow, Silver... actually, just look at what they did with literally EVERYONE  besides Tails in this game. At least everyone else got to at least throw a punch in some form. Tails is literally the only one who can't even be privileged enough to merely defend himself for some reason. Silver may have got beaten by infinite in their initial fight, but at least they've written it so that Silver had some sort of relevance and was actually holding his own. The NPC excuse doesn't fly with me when you have literally every other NPC at least having some form of contribution to the battle and continue this throughout the entire game.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

For your Chaos point, it's essentially the same as my first point regarding vs Eggman and the Eggpawns. Whoever's perspective truly was the right one to follow between Sonic and Tails, whether they fought it together or not, one thing's for sure is that Tails has fought Chaos 4. Then you factor in the myriad of Chaos clones in SA2 he fought alone and is experienced with. The point of the matter is, Tails has gone through this already, and worse! You bring up the point that "he's still a child" , but Tails was even younger back then when dealing with Chaos's first introduction. So why is he scared now when he should've been experienced? Why is he screaming for Sonic and is so helpless that he cant even defend himself when we had a game before that said he can't depend on him forever? And why does it take a Classic Sonic for something Modern Tails should've and already have easily handled with with one bop to the head? It makes no sense! The 6 months passing I can't excuse because Tails was evidently already doing absolutely nothing against fodder prior to Sonic's absence and after his return.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

About your point stating, "Silver had it right in an earlier scene; Tails has lost it. If you looked towards Forces with hope of a serious story with real consequences, this is the shit you should be eating up." ...I'm not one of those people looking for that. I'm just mainly looking for a good and consistent story within the Sonic series.

Realistically, Tails should have kept fighting on the minute he saw Sonic on the ground KO'd. He spent part of his life learning from Sonic, and as Sonic rubbed off onto him, he then learned later on that he can be his very own, and that's not a realization that didn't come with it's trials and hardship. We had several games, stages and boss battles keeping this consistent.

It's completely inconsistent and unrealistic to have this character just suddenly break mentally the minute his now sudden lord and savior loses when this wasn't the first time he's dealt with such a situation. He doesn't even check if he's alright post battle. Like... but then he just snaps into his senses A-OK the minute he sees a different dimensional version of a person he thought died 6 months ago? What? I guess to hell with all his loved ones unless any version of Sonic's there for him apparently, because those other guys are nowhere near as significant and can't do shit. Is that really what he learned from his Sonic after following him after all this time?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

About the SA2 "death" point, In SA2, this was at a point in time where barely anyone knew about Chaos Control, let alone having Sonic being able to perform it, let alone with a Fake Chaos Emerald created by Tails. As far as Tails knew, Sonic blew up in space with no way of escape! That's a very gruesome thought in of itself. It's way more plausible to believe Sonic's passing and fitting to be spiritually broken there, as It was only a miracle Sonic got out of that situation. Even then, Tails still held up consistently character wise and fought for Sonic while still being morally down when he thought he fulfilled Sonic's last request. Tails knew to save those feelings after the fight, even if it was short lived.

In contrast to that, with Forces, we have Tails who immediately gives up and breaks mentally in the start of Eggman's victory because Sonic's laying on the fucking ground over a little tussle between Infinite and his illusions? And then we cut to a black screen with text saying "Sonic has been defeated"? Naaaaaaaah, lol. I'm going to need way more than that if they want me to believe Tails's sudden downfall. Again, what was even stopping Tails from not allowing Eggman and the rest from capturing Sonic? Why does he immediately give up knowing full well Sonic has gotten out of way worse situations than that? The fact that Tails didn't get captured with him tells me he didn't do squat to check to see if Sonic was alright. He just stood behind that rock and cried, or else Eggman just went home like an idiot and let Tails go (It's not like Eggman didn't know he was there, especially after screaming out Sonic's name)... even though he yells at Infinite for letting Sonic escape.... There's really nothing implying that Sonic even died right then and there to even give up all hope, too, because Eggman captured him, which should've gave Tails on going purpose to rescue Sonic and stop them well before 6 months passed since Eggman decided to be stupid or overly cocky enough to allow him to walk off with his scanner to allow him to pick up readings on his locations later on. Bottom line is, something's not adding up here.

 

TLDR: It's pretty much a "Been there, done that." situation that I'd expect Forces Tails to follow, given all that he's gone through that lead up to this moment in the series, yet for some reason, he's acting wildly dependent and weak in literally every situation he's in. For every past game that had Tails fighting for his friends, saying "I can't depend on Sonic forever!", with every following scene backing up his mantra when Sonic's missing is directly combated by Forces Tails screaming "Help me Sonic!", giving up without a fight and dooming his friends the minute Sonic wasn't there to save him.

Exactly, that's what bugged me, how Tails was shown to do nothing about Sonic's defeat. They should have had Tails fly in and try saving Sonic. They could have had it where Tails grabbed Sonic and tried flying off, only for one of the illusions to attack Tails, and knock him out. Tails  could have woke up and found Sonic was taken. Instead, they showed nothing, leaving the viewers with the implication that Tails stood back and assumed Sonic was killed, while doing nothing to try protecting him. 

Pretty sad when you realize Amy still believed in Sonic, while Sonic's best friend instantly gave up on him.  Amy presumably lost the love of her life, yet she still tried cheering everyone up, by saying she dreams Sonic is still with them, but Silver had to crush her hopes, by not showing any belief in Sonic still being alive. It's sad how Amy had more faith in Sonic still existing, yet Sonic's best friend instantly gave up on him.

What also bugs me, is how Tails seemed so eager to replace Sonic. When Classic Sonic shows up, all of a sudden, Tails feels better, and claims "It feels good to have  any Sonic ." That rubbed me the wrong way... Tails doesn't seem to care if his real best friend never returns, as long as it's some form of Sonic who doesn't exactly know him too well, it's perfectly fine... The Tails Classic Sonic knew apparently isn't the same as this version of Tails, since they claim this version of Sonic is from another dimension, instead of the past. Tails doesn't care about the loss of modern Sonic anymore, he just wants to fill the void with any Sonic. It also bugged me how obnoxious Tails got about Classic Sonic in this game. He kept bragging in front of the others about how "we're in luck, now that Sonic's here." It's like he's calling everyone who is not Sonic useless. He has no faith in anyone, whatsoever, unless they're a blue hedgehog named Sonic... That is not the Tails I remember. Sonic may have been Tails's best friend, but he wasn't always relying on Sonic for everything. We've seen him put his trust in the others as well, so it feels too out of character for Tails to lose faith in everyone, just because he thought Sonic died.

Yet another thing that bugged me about the game, the story gave me no believable reason as to why only Sonic, Avatar, and Classic Sonic had to save the day. I wish the story wrote itself out to let the others be more useful, including Tails. It was disappointing to see the cast just explaining things, and pulling off just one attack during the war sequence. For a game called "Sonic Forces", we sure didn't see much of Sonic's pals being an actual force. I don't think three main focused characters are really worthy of being given the name "Forces". 

Spoiler

The game tried too hard to make Tails's departure with Classic Sonic overdramatic, but I really didn't give a crap... We barely saw any bonding moments between them, so this sudden departure of Tails being sad about Classic Sonic leaving felt too out of nowhere. Plus, the real Sonic was already back, you know, his real best friend? Why would Tails be so sad of being parted with a Sonic he doesn't know, when his real best friend is still there? (The whole reason he was depressed in the first place...)

  I've never been so annoyed with Tails in my life. He's one of my favorite characters by the way, not even his mood swings in Lost World bugged me as much as his useless and cowardly behavior in this game. I really hope we get new writers and developers in the future, because the games have been going more down hill since Lost World, and keep getting worse. 

[Dr. Mechano]

I don't mind characters showing some weakness; Far from it, flaws and limits make characters feel more human and relatable.

The problem is when this flies in the face of prior characterization. Tails being terrified of common Badniks is ridiculous. He should not be cowering in fear before a bunch of low-level robots; He should be fighting back, like he has been for years. Heck, this was before Sonic was defeated. So it isn't even because of him being traumatized; Tails was reduced to a cowering wimp even before "losing it."

[Dr. Detective]

Yeah. Thinking more about it, I would have found the cowering more acceptable had it been something he did after he started to "lose it" with Sonic gone and the world taken over. It would have been kind of interesting to see Tails fighting the robots and protecting citizens juxtaposed with him doing the exact opposite after all the bad shit went down and they failed hardcore. That contrast might have been able to sell his descent a little better. 

It's strange though. Tails is still allowed to fight in the Sonic Boom TV show and he doesn't look like he's a sideliner in Sonic Mania either. Even in the comics they're fine with it. It seems like it's just the 3D game version of Tails that's not allowed to fight for some reason.

I don't really understand why. 

[StaticMania]

Tails' strength in game-play is separate from the story...this is most definitely a 3D Sonic game.

[TailsTellsTales]

2 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Nice post. I didn't really want to argue this point as I've gotten kinda tired of trying to justify my stance in other places, but you hit the nail on the head.

In story telling, if you want a character to not fall into incompetency, you need strong moments. Weak moments are there to show a character is not invincible or infallible. But too many weak moments and that's just all a character is. Which is why for me at least Sonic had way too many strong moments and hardly any weak ones, so he basically became practically invincible, which wasn't interesting to watch or play as.

To me I fell for Tails because he wasn't just a generic techy stereotype. He's like my second favourite turtle Donatello where brains and physical attributes wrapped into one. They were smart, clever, and plenty capable of holding their own. Not particularly the most powerful or skilled of their group, but damn resourceful in every conceivable way possible. 

I made a video actually compiling all of Clement's rants as well as some of my own thoughts. I haven't seen it in a long while so I don't know if I agree with everything I said. I know I was pretty miffed at the time while making it. It's also shittily edited together I'll say that XD
 

 

This video really got me thinking over some things. It definitely made me miss the Tails who could kick ass and be smart too, but more importantly it showed why I stuck with Tails in the first place. As a kid I was the smallest and skinniest weighing 40 lbs in the 4th grade to give you an idea. As a kid I liked that Tails was in a way like me except he demonstrated that even though you are small, you do not have to be weak. Strength can come from all sizes. This what made me prefer him over Sonic. It was nice seeing somebody who had the intellect but also could hold his own instead of the smart=weak and strong=stupid stereotype.

When I played Sonic Adventure for the first time earlier this year, I was shocked that Tails even had an actual boss fight.

Overall that video kinda got me feeling sad since it confirms what I been knowing for years in that Tails is not who he used to be. There are signs of hope with Sonic Mania, but that was done by an outside group and not by Sonic Team. Is it wrong that I seem to make a big deal out of this though? I mean afterall it is just a game and Tails is just a character. But I be lying if I did not say that I really wish that Tails could be the tech guy and be part of the action holding his own like he was and should be before.

PS: The video was way better than the videos I made.

[superman43]

Actually, story in Mania wouldn't even happen if Tails didn't find the strange energy signal being Phantom Ruby. Forces make him incompetent, totally useless.

[Korke]

I guess their jokes on Tails being maimed before the game release did have some hidden message after all.

[dbzfan7]

Well with just 10 minutes of editing, I present. Sonic Forces Tails to do something.
 

 

I fixed some things here and there, added in a new gameplay section. Don't mind the graphics becoming a lot worse and the voice change....and scenery change. It was an er...byproduct...yeah. So here ya go, the non Tails puss bag edition

[Tracker_TD]

1 hour ago, SaberX said:

So...he simply gaves up when his "brother" gets capture(or dies)? He didn't change his attitude at all? Isn't him supposed to mirror Sonic? Like a little brother saying "I want to be so much as strong as him"? Whats happened with the same kid who once jumped to save Sonic in LW(this game is a bad example though)? Is this whats gonna happened to Tails if Sonic ever needs his help or dies? Is he gonna be a loser once Sonic is defeated?

Anyway, stopping all those lame questions...but the hero and the aspiring hero is a pretty common trend. How many times we see like a kid trying to fight using little to no force, most of times failing, because his hero failed?

Yeah in hindsight that was a dumb point given Tails' development in SA1 and SA2. Shit, Tails literally thinks he sees Sonic die in SA2 and five seconds later he's firing everything he has in Eggman's direction. 

[caitash]

19 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Yeah in hindsight that was a dumb point given Tails' development in SA1 and SA2. Shit, Tails literally thinks he sees Sonic die in SA2 and five seconds later he's firing everything he has in Eggman's direction. 

I think this is my biggest issue with Forces Tails. In Lost World or Colours you could argue that SA1 or SA2 aren't set in the same universe so their related character developments aren't canon/etc. But in Forces they have villians/anti-heroes from SA1/2 and they're recognised by the heroes. You can't bring in villains from older games while at the same time ditching the heroes' character development from the same games (unless you're Sonic Team).