What would you say to someone who doesn't like the "stop and go" of Classic Sonic

[PKGaming]

Ever since Mania came out, tons of people have been praising it, but I've also noticed the "Sonic was never good" people start chiming in as well. The most common thing I hear is complaining about the stop and go in classic Sonic. Stuff like "If Sonic's all about going fast, then why're there a bunch of slow and uninteresting platforming segments?" or "I wanna go fast, but the game keeps stopping me." And usually the response to that is that Classic Sonic was never JUST about going fast and that it was a platformer at heart, but someone else also brought up the point of "If Sonic's whole character trait is going fast, then why do his games have him do the opposite at times? There's a disconnect between the character and the game." and "You have a platforming segment and then a speed segment where you literally just hold the direction Sonic is going...and then something stops you like a wall or spring and then it's back to platforming. It feels segmented and disjointed." 

I'm not exactly sure what else to tell them except to play the Boost games if all they wanna do is go fast...

[Blue Blood]

Classic Sonic is hardly stop and go. If anything, that much better describes the boost games' approach to platforming. If people don't like platforming in Classic Sonic games, then okay they don't like it. What else is there to say? A game that's nothing but raw speed gets boring very, very fast. You'd end up with a game that's just repeats of Generations Modern Green Hill, with an increasing amount of QTEs.

To make a Sonic game work, you've got to have a decent balance of speed and platforming, without segregating the two aspects. I think that Mania handles this very well, and it becomes much harder to design a game that allows that once you introduce an instant top-speed button. The most important part is perhaps to keep the player moving the vast majority of the time. There's more to that than just running forward constantly.

[MegasonicZX]

Honestly and truly? Nothing. The people who really think "dang why does this game keep stopping me and all I wanna do is go fast" aren't really the kind of people who are ever likely to like the games because like you said, they don't like being stopped. Lots of old school platformers (and even some platformers today) placed the responsibility of learning the game enough to master it on the player instead of handing you the "skills" on a silver platter and saying "go nuts" and basically just letting them be pros with little effort. The problem with a lot of these people I find is that they don't want to be stopped, but they also don't want to take the time to properly repeat and learn the levels well enough to actually get to the point where they are rarely ever stopped and instead are progressively getting faster at the progression, so what this does is promote the whole "sonic was never good" and "the modern games are so much better for leaving this behind" jargon that gets pushed around.

Sonic (at his core) isn't a simple game like Mario or donkey kong where the mechanics aren't too complex and all actions are consistent no matter where you are (and I don't use simple as a detriment mind you), he has things like momentum, inertia and angle of slopes when jumping, rolling, running, etc, etc, so the classic games aren't a simple set of games to jump into and when you add the limited camera angle it can seem unfair to those people who were only clued in to the "gotta go fast" mantra of the series without learning about its other complimentary parts. I don't think you can properly convince many people to go along with this as you'd be hard pressed to find many people who are interested in "mastering mechanics" or optimizing for the best routes possible and whatnot. Especially in this fanbase (and this statement can go both ways) so I just say, why bother?

[Goldenlink64]

1 hour ago, PKGaming said:

There's a disconnect between the character and the game." and "You have a platforming segment and then a speed segment where you literally just hold the direction Sonic is going...and then something stops you like a wall or spring and then it's back to platforming. It feels segmented and disjointed." 

I'm not exactly sure what else to tell them except to play the Boost games if all they wanna do is go fast...

And by "platforming segment" they probably mean waiting for a platform to slowly make its way towards another playable part of the map and that's why you tell them to stay away from Sonic 1 (Genesis) post Green Hill Zone or CD. Sonic 2, 3, Advance 1/2 and the 3D Games before Shadow do a decent job at maintaining both.

I think the biggest problem is that this series is primarily looked as "gotta go fast" because of their initial marketing. At their very core though, they were clearly designed as an explorative venture through sandbox-like levels with multiple paths and collectibles (that's why having Tails and Knuckles playable adds so much to the series). People need to remove this "gotta go fast, screw the furry friends Sonic-only" mindset because in the end all that's really going to do is relegate the games and development to purely automated spectacle with little input or interesting mechanics on the player's end... oh wait that's right, it's already happened fml.

 

Edited September 17, 2017 by Goldenlink64
forgot a thing

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, PKGaming said:

but someone else also brought up the point of "If Sonic's whole character trait is going fast, then why do his games have him do the opposite at times?

If Mario's main trait is jumping, why is he ever not jumping? I expect to jump all the time and never have that work against me. If Megaman is about getting a whole bunch of weapons, why do they keep putting all these platforms to jump on and holes to jump over? I have for some reason decided that shooting is all that Megaman is about so clearly it is the games that are wrong.

It's nonsense, is what I'm saying. Sonic isn't defined solely by going fast. While speed is, no doubt, an important aspect of the games, it's tempered with slower-paced platforming to create games with better pacing and more variety than you could get relying on fast-paced sections alone. And it's not as if the entire concept of going fast gets thrown out as soon as the game isn't feeding easy speed to you; the more you play, the better you understand the physics and level design, the faster you're able to complete those platforming sections. People that complain that the games keep stopping them from going fast seem to have forgotten that they are in fact playing a game, and they need to actually invest effort to do well.

Now, could there be improvements made to the classic formula to make it more fluid without sacrificing platforming? Probably. I'm not going to claim that the formula is flawless. But improvements aren't going to come from people complaining that platforming dares to exist, or thinking that Sonic should be moving at top speed through the whole level. That's the path that gives us the boost games, shallow, constrained experiences that prioritize going fast over having anything else to offer.

[Dr. Mechano]

What's the point of "going fast" if you don't have meaningful platforming or obstacles to deal with?

Platforms, meaningful enemies, and obstacles  - these are the things that make Sonic a platformer as opposed to a racing game. These elements are important, and without them, we have... well, we have the 3D segments of the boost games. 

[Strickerx5]

My idea of the "ideal" Sonic gameplay experience is a style that can weave both platforming and the thrill of flowing through levels seamlessly. To this end, most Sonic games have managed to have at least one level do this well but games like Unleashed, SA1&2, Generations, the first half or so of Mania, and a few levels of Rush seem to have this more down pat than others. When I refer to the classic gameplay as being more "stop and go" than the rest, I do mean just that. Most of the levels there are segmented with clear areas where the game gives you speed (often to the point where you don't have to even touch the controller) and other areas where you're literally forced to wait on moving platforms, push a switch, or stuck in a bubble; areas that have no speed to speak of.

I get the popular mentality of "speed being a reward" but I feel that there is a clear difference between "speed being a reward for playing well" and "speed being a reward for making it through a slow-ass platforming segment." If I'm running through a level and make a mistake that causes me to slow down and have to find my way back to that flow I had then so be it. That is showing me that my skill has a reward. Though, have me literally be stopped by a hand that forces me onto a treadmill object, then throws me into some loops, across fans/ water, through some descending spiral staircases, that then throws me onto some slow moving boat section or (in Rush's case) a beat'em up section and that's where I take issue. At that point you've forcefully broken the flow of gameplay and have trivialized it to a style that any half baked Mario Maker stage could pull off.

Sonic may not be solely about speed but it's still a damn big part of who he is (especially considering the character was made on the premise and advertised with it). To that end, I personally do find a game that has a substantial amount of levels being purely "stop and go" to be a bad thing. And no, it's not because I hate platforming. It's because I hate inconsistency. Look at a level like Chemical Plant act 2 in Mania where most of its new gimmicks keep the player moving through segments but also require the player to skillfully use them to keep pace. Then look at a level like

Spoiler

Lava Reef (both acts) that introduce gimmicks that only serve to halt progress along with clear segments of the level that stop you and others where you're on a literal treadmill.

I'll tell you right now that I greatly prefer the former. To put this in a real world example, CP act 2 is like cooking a full meal well. You're constantly flowing, doing things, moving things in and out of ovens, with the end result being a good meal. The other is like driving a car until you hit a red light or have to stop to get oil. The less experiences I have in a fucking video game that remind me of those latter feelings, the better.

[SpongicX]

I do agree that it is important to have Sonic games have stopping points, which change up the gameplay, but do they have to constantly feel like waiting and watching for elevators?

I kind of wish the stopping points felt a little faster, or more entertaining. Most of them just have you standing around and waiting for something to come back around, in order to hop on something, and slowly ride it away. For me, I don't hate stopping points because they stop me from progression, I dislike them for feeling like a boring waiting game. 

I'm somewhere in between. I don't necessarily wish for stopping points to go away, I just wish they were handled with more fun, and less waiting.

I thought Metalic Madness did a fine job with spicing up the halting points, like having to dodge the celiling as it collapses like Tetris pieces, along with being shrunk, and being shot from the foreground and background. They slowed the gameplay down a bit, but still maintained action, and some visual fun.

Levels like Press Garden Zone Act 1 did it badly in my opinion. The level was more fun when playing as Tails, but annoying as Sonic and Knuckles. Having to find and smash those light bulbs, in order to open gates, figuring out how to bounce off those treadmills, climbing the letter blocks that we had to wait for, it was boring.

Act 2 did a little better with the ice cube traveling, it took me a while to realize staying in the ice cubes were necessary to advance, I kept trying to smash through them, before realizing how they were needed to smash through blocked passages. It was still tricky to figure out, but once figured out, it did make replaying the level more enjoyable. Lava Reef Zone Act 1  got annoying with having to keep reaching those switches to contine onward.

Halting gimmicks in Sonic games aren't all bad, but making them feel like a chore can really suck the fun out of some levels. Even the bosses had halting gimmicks, I haven't seen a single person say one nice thing about the halting point in Metal Sonic's boss fight. The rest of the fight was good, but the part about spin dashing little Silver Sonics into Metal Sonics was rather boring, and annoying for those who don't know what to do at first. It took me a while to realize I could spin dash at the Silver Sonics while they're charging their dash, I thought I'd have to wait for them to release it first, before spin dashing at them. Even with knowing how to beat that segment with ease, that part is still boring, and takes away from the Metal Sonic boss fight being fully enjoyable.

2 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

What's the point of "going fast" if you don't have meaningful platforming or obstacles to deal with?

Platforms, meaningful enemies, and obstacles  - these are the things that make Sonic a platformer as opposed to a racing game. These elements are important, and without them, we have... well, we have the 3D segments of the boost games. 

Am I the only one who prefers the 3d segments in the boost games? I sighed whenever sidescroller segements were forced in, especially in Generations. Classic Sonic already had his own sidescrolling stages, modern Sonic should have gotten pure 3d stages. It was especially annoying in the 3ds version, what was the point in limiting Modern Sonic's gameplay to 2d only?  I hated one minute having fun with seeing what's ahead of me, only for the camera to keep swerving and limit me to only moving left and right.

Are we ever going to get a pure 3D Sonic game again? One that doesn't interrupt the flow of 3d gameplay with sudden changes to 2d gameplay or levels?! Even Lost World and Rise of Lyric had these segments forced in. It saddens me that Sega lost faith in 3d platforming, just because they screwed up with Sonic 06...

[Dr. Mechano]

18 minutes ago, SpongicX said:

Am I the only one who prefers the 3d segments in the boost games? I sighed whenever sidescroller segements were forced in, especially in Generations. Classic Sonic already had his own sidescrolling stages, modern Sonic should have gotten pure 3d stages. It was especially annoying in the 3ds version, what was the point in limiting Modern Sonic's gameplay to 2d only?  I hated one minute having fun with seeing what's ahead of me, only for the camera to keep swerving and limit me to only moving left and right.

Are we ever going to get a pure 3D Sonic game again? One that doesn't interrupt the flow of 3d gameplay with sudden changes to 2d gameplay or levels?! Even Lost World and Rise of Lyric had these segments forced in. It saddens me that Sega lost faith in 3d platforming, just because they screwed up with Sonic 06...

Oh, don't get me wrong. The 2D segments of modern games are bad too, but they're bad because they're designed badly and Sonic's physics are awful, not because they distract from the 3D segments. All these 2D segments manage to be is a pale imitation of the classic games, and all they serve to do is remind me that I could be playing something better. But even with that said, they're the better half of the boost games because at least they offer some platforming and gameplay variety. Still bad, but more engaging than the 3D sections, which isn't a high bar to clear.

I think 3D Sonic played fine in the Adventure games. In those games, you actually did platforming. You jumped up and over things. You stopped sometimes. You fought enemies instead of just effortlessly boosting through them. The Adventure games were platformers, and the boost games are like... some kind of weird hybrid between platformers and racing games, which in my opinion fail to excel at either genre.

Even Lost World's gameplay is preferably to the boost games in my opinion, and that game was bad-to-mediocre. Because at least there, you had fluid control over Sonic's movements. He wasn't just barelling forward constantly. Enemies were legitimate obstacles and not just decorations for you to plow through without a second thought.

I'm fine with a full 3D Sonic game, but in my opinion, the boost formula is not the way to do it. It simply doesn't offer substantially engaging gameplay or level design. And you need those things for a game to be worth playing.

[SpongicX]

That's exactly how I feel. I miss Sonic's gameplay from Sonic Adventure, and have been dying to see it brought back with improvements, and other playable characters.

Boost gameplay was fun at first, but it got old real fast. I still find it more exciting than the 2d boost segments, but not as good as the race to the goal gameplay of "Sonic Adventure". Sega needs to look up a fan game called "Sonic World" and get inspiration from that.

[Natie]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

If Mario's main trait is jumping, why is he ever not jumping? I expect to jump all the time and never have that work against me. If Megaman is about getting a whole bunch of weapons, why do they keep putting all these platforms to jump on and holes to jump over? I have for some reason decided that shooting is all that Megaman is about so clearly it is the games that are wrong

Bless you for this. I don't get why Classic Sonic's always under a microscope about this kinda stuff. It'd get boring if all you did was go fast.

19 minutes ago, SpongicX said:

Sega needs to look up a fan game called "Sonic World" and get inspiration from that.

Th-this is a joke right...?

[caseykz]

 

[SpongicX]

44 minutes ago, Natie said:

Bless you for this. I don't get why Classic Sonic's always under a microscope about this kinda stuff. It'd get boring if all you did was go fast.

Th-this is a joke right...?

Multiple characters, many levels, chao garden, multiple modes, optional team modes, what's there to joke about? It's a fan game, of course it has flaws, but I'd love to see a real game built around the idea, along with improvements, more polish, cutscenes, a story, and hub world. Sonic World may not feel like professional quality, but for a fan game, it's pretty impressive.

If you don't like it, fair enough, but you don't need to try mocking me, by calling my opinion a joke. I'm not joking, I like the idea of Sonic World, and want to see Sega make an actual game about it. Go ahead, laugh at me, I'm not going to back away from my opinion, just because you think it's a joke.

[PKGaming]

Unlike a lot of people here, I don't hate the Boost gameplay. I actually quite enjoy it. I think there's definite fun to be had with a gameplay style that involves boosting through stages with quick reaction-based platforming. It's definitely not like the classics at all, but it's not trying to be. I think once you completely separate the two, you might have more fun with it. Of course, some Boost games do this better than others. Colors, for example, has SO much stop and go platforming that it's kind of hard to even call it a Boost game. And Forces looks like a huge step back from what Generations did and back into Colors territory...

While I do think there's more they could do with the Boost gameplay, I'd definitely like to see them do something else when the next 3D Sonic comes around. And honestly, after playing Sonic Utopia, that's EXACTLY what I wanna see. Sonic Utopia is an amazing skeleton for a 3D Sonic game. It's not perfect, but the potential for what can be made using Utopia's ideas as a base really excites me. I hope SEGA can continue working with fans in the future and contact the developers of Utopia. 

[MegasonicZX]

42 minutes ago, SpongicX said:

Multiple characters, many levels, chao garden, multiple modes, optional team modes, what's there to joke about? It's a fan game, of course it has flaws, but I'd love to see a real game built around the idea, along with improvements, more polish, cutscenes, a story, and hub world. Sonic World may not feel like professional quality, but for a fan game, it's pretty impressive.

If you don't like it, fair enough, but you don't need to try mocking me, by calling my opinion a joke. I'm not joking, I like the idea of Sonic World, and want to see Sega make an actual game about it. Go ahead, laugh at me, I'm not going to back away from my opinion, just because you think it's a joke.

Not to put your opinion down or anything like that (as I can see why people would like sonic world despite the problems I have with it) but honestly speaking sonic world is the last game that I would want sega to take inspiration from as the game has a more = better mentality that I can never get behind. Lots of the levels kinda just range from bad to decent and some of them just feel like straight up boost stages only without the boost with an enemy roster (that they kept increasing for some reason) that is pretty much window dressing to pretty up the stage a bit to keep it from feeling too empty with how little they actually do to impede progress and how little they can actually do to harm you (pretty much all my gripes with the avatar in forces only slightly better here since its not as awkward). Like the gameplay itself has potential but the devs never used it and all the pointless add-ons to the character roster with little improvement in anything else gameplay wise (not even in the stage design) keeps me from being able to fully get behind your idea.

 

[Maxtiis]

Usually when arguments like this crop up I just show them a segment of a Sonic speedrun like this:

It's probably poor practice to show someone that feels that way about Sonic the highest level of play as I doubt they would want to put forward the effort to actually reach that skill ceiling thus not convincing them that their opinion is flawed, but I feel it's appropriate considering what it takes to gain this kind of skill is what the series was originally designed for. While there may be moments where the player will have to stop, whether its to time jumps or just avoid obstacles, it just comes with the territory of Sonic games being platformers.

[SpongicX]

9 minutes ago, MegasonicZX said:

Not to put your opinion down or anything like that (as I can see why people would like sonic world despite the problems I have with it) but honestly speaking sonic world is the last game that I would want sega to take inspiration from as the game has a more = better mentality that I can never get behind. Lots of the levels kinda just range from bad to decent and some of them just feel like straight up boost stages only without the boost with an enemy roster (that they kept increasing for some reason) that is pretty much window dressing to pretty up the stage a bit to keep it from feeling too empty with how little they actually do to impede progress and how little they can actually do to harm you (pretty much all my gripes with the avatar in forces only slightly better here since its not as awkward). Like the gameplay itself has potential but the devs never used it and all the pointless add-ons to the character roster with little improvement in anything else gameplay wise (not even in the stage design) keeps me from being able to fully get behind your idea.

 

I didn't mean it had to be exactly like Sonic World. I want a game that has plenty of well made stages, and many playable characters to choose from. The levels in Sonic World are indeed flawed, but I'm still able to look past it, and realize that it's just a fan game. Of course I wouldn't want an actual game to feel as empty or glitchy as the levels in Sonic World. I still love the concept of taking many optional playable characters, and allowing them to be playable in each level as everyone else. I liked how it encouraged players to play the game as they want. It may not have been perfect, but it's a good start. If Sega could hire a team who can properly make an official game out of Sonic World, then that would be awesome. Like I said, Sega should take inspiration from Sonic World, not copy it entirely.

They need to take what works about Sonic World, ignore what doesn't work, and get a dedicated team who is committed to make sure that each character has their own way of progressing through each level. No more forcing Tails to be in mechanical shoot out levels, no more treasure hunting for Knuckles, and no more slow robot evasion missions as Amy. Let us control the characters in the same levels as Sonic, while giving them  each a fun and unique play style. Let fans play Sonic the way they want to, don't force them to be stuck on the ground as just Sonic. Let them fly as Tails, glide and climb as Knuckles, hammer swing as Amy, throw things around with telekinesis as Silver, burn as Blaze, etc. We don't need as many characters as Sonic World, we don't need long lost, or obscure characters like Mephiles, Mighty, Ray, Big, Marine, Tails Doll, Metal Knuckles, Honey, Tiara, Bark, Fang, Bean, Jet, Wave, Storm, etc. 

Bring back the Chao Garden, or something that inspires players to replay levels, and keep collecting rings, animals, and chaos drives to unlock more bonus content, that was always one of the fun things about Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, it gave players a more fun reason to want to go back and replay levels to collect rings and destroy enemies. I hate seeing rings being used for nothing but high scores or one ups now in days, I miss being able to use them as currency. Sonic Unleashed may have had collectible content from rings, but most of it was just for exp which could also be earned in gameplay, along with hunting down those stupid sun and moon medals, and movie reels... . Sonic Generations did a slighty better job with replay value than Unleashed, but there still were a short amount of levels and variety, compared to the multiple levels and characters  in the Sonic Adventure games. It was kind of neat to be able to earn points and exchange them for enhancement skills for Sonic, too bad most of the game's best unlockables were hidden behind red ring collecting and annoying missions though. 

Most of all, I just want Sega to find a good balance with Sonic. It's good that they're finally looking back at the Classic games, for those who loved them, but I hate how they're completely ignoring the Adventure fans. I wish Sega would find a better way of pleasing the 3 genres of Sonic games. Sega needs to find a way to take turns with pleasing the Classic, Adventure, and Modern games. I'm sick of Sonic fans feeling left out from getting the games they prefer, especially for so long. 

[Diogenes]

10 minutes ago, SpongicX said:

They need to take what works about Sonic World,

I mean that's the thing, I'm not sure anything about Sonic World works.

[SpongicX]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I mean that's the thing, I'm not sure anything about Sonic World works.

concept wise, not execution wise. As long as the final game is done well execution wise, what isn't there to like? There's no reason to be so harsh towards Sonic World, it's just a fan game, not a game you actually paid for, made by an actual studio. The team behind Sonic World aren't professionals, they're just fans who want to have a Sonic game that takes everything they love about Sonic Adventure, and Sonic Heroes, while adding a bunch of levels and characters they've been dying to play as. 

If you don't want Sonic World, fine, but there's no need to try acting like no one should have the opinion of liking it. I'm not saying everyone should like Sonic World, but I find it unfair to try acting like no one should like it. People should be able to play it and decide for themselves. When I'm saying I like Sonic World, I'm speaking for myself, I'm not trying to say everyone should agree with me. 

[Natie]

2 hours ago, SpongicX said:

concept wise, not execution wise.

I mean the whole concept was to focus on having a ton of content, there wasn't too much regard for gameplay. So basically Sonic Team already HAS done this concept.

[molul]

"What would you say to someone who doesn't like the "stop and go" of Classic Sonic"

I'd say "Fair enough. I do like it"

What else should be said?

[JezMM]

5 hours ago, Maxtiis said:

Usually when arguments like this crop up I just show them a segment of a Sonic speedrun like this:

It's probably poor practice to show someone that feels that way about Sonic the highest level of play as I doubt they would want to put forward the effort to actually reach that skill ceiling thus not convincing them that their opinion is flawed, but I feel it's appropriate considering what it takes to gain this kind of skill is what the series was originally designed for. While there may be moments where the player will have to stop, whether its to time jumps or just avoid obstacles, it just comes with the territory of Sonic games being platformers.

Their response here is that they want the game to look like this even when you're playing it for the first time.  Basically... they want something that can't tangibly exist without automation.

 

 

I think the best response to someone who complains about stop and go in Sonic is to tell them to stop talking and go away.

[molul]

Lol. How about just respecting the other opinion while disagreeing? I mean, whatever anyone says, I like the games exactly the same, so what's the problem that someone doesn't enjoy the game as much as I do?

[Bowbowis]

One of the limitations of 2D is that you can only see a short distance ahead of you, which is kind of a problem when you're moving at mach 1. That's the main reason why the Classic and Boost games force you come to a screeching halt to do platforming, if they didn't you'd be liable to run right into a bottomless pit before you even knew what happened (the weird block platforming fetish the series has had since Colors doesn't help either).

Sure, It's not impossible to keep moving in the Classic games:

8 hours ago, Maxtiis said:

 

But, that relies heavily on memorizing the level, which is less than ideal. Speed should be a reward, but it should be a reward for skill, not clairvoyance. A good example of this done right is Sonic Adventure 2: 

Speed and platforming coexist, but they compliment each other. Slowing down may make platforming easier, but it's in no way mandatory. Conversely, going fast may make platforming more challenging, but it's a challenge that's designed to be overcome to keep your momentum going. Essentially, you can play at your own pace. Furthermore, being in 3D, the player has ample warning of oncoming hazards, meaning even first time players have a fair shot at keeping their speed up without being blindsided by a bed of spikes hiding three pixels offscreen.

So, what would I say to somebody who doesn't like the stop-and-go of the classics? I'd say "Play Sonic Adventure 2".

#SonicDoesntWorkIn2D

 

[Dizcrybe]

The only Classic Sonic game that can remotely be described as "stop-and-go" is Sonic 1. In the others, you're pretty much constantly moving in some way.

If anything, S4 and Generations!Classic are more stop-and-go.