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What would you say to someone who doesn't like the "stop and go" of Classic Sonic


PKGaming

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31 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

But, that relies heavily on memorizing the level, which is less than ideal. Speed should be a reward, but it should be a reward for skill, not clairvoyance. A good example of this done right is Sonic Adventure 2

We're talking about a speedrun, man, of course playing like that is going to require memorization, playing any game at the highest skill level requires memorization.

And then you're gonna post a video of SA2 as if he's playing purely by reaction and not by the level design largely being burned into his mind through years of play, sheesh.

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I'd tell them the same thing of people that never stop griping on forces. Say your piece them go play something else. Sonic has never been a fast game all the time. There only a few segments of pure speed but usually your platforming don't like it than move on

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9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

We're talking about a speedrun, man, of course playing like that is going to require memorization, playing any game at the highest skill level requires memorization.

Really? I was under the impression that we were talking about stop-and-go in the Classic games. Regardless, the video, which was presented to demonstrate that the Classics aren't necessarily stop-and-go, depicts a master player who has completely memorized the level and is using that foreknowledge to skip the slower parts. In other words, it's not applicable to the average player, who will be having a much different, much slower, experience with the level than the person in the video.

 

37 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And then you're gonna post a video of SA2 as if he's playing purely by reaction and not by the level design largely being burned into his mind through years of play, sheesh.

I posted that video to illustrate the level design, not the player. Imagine he was a novice. Can you point out anywhere in that video where he would have been slowed to a crawl or blindsided by a hazard simply because he lacked precognitive abilities, not because he lacked skill?

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34 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

I posted that video to illustrate the level design, not the player. Imagine he was a novice. Can you point out anywhere in that video where he would have been slowed to a crawl or blindsided by a hazard simply because he lacked precognitive abilities, not because he lacked skill?

Yeah, there's a couple instances of enemies spawning in right on the player's path (0:10, 0:30 I'm pretty sure, 0:48), there's the slow "platforming" up the tree starting around 1:15, and the falling platforms at the end can trip you up if you're not expecting them. There'd probably be more if the level wasn't so shallow.

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2 hours ago, ShroomZed said:

What I'd say is don't play the games then. Sonic doesn't have to appeal to everyone you know. 

Certainly, but I guess I'm thinking about the people that like to use this as a way to spread the idea that the Sonic series was always awful and shame those that enjoy the series. 

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12 hours ago, JezMM said:

Their response here is that they want the game to look like this even when you're playing it for the first time.  Basically... they want something that can't tangibly exist without automation.

I think the best response to someone who complains about stop and go in Sonic is to tell them to stop talking and go away.

This is why I mentioned it's probably poor practice to show people that dislike Sonic gameplay footage of highly skilled players. You're right about it setting up an expectation that Sonic games will play like this all the time, despite us veterans of this franchise knowing fully well that its impossible for anyone to play at this level on their first try. Actually I was more addressing the point that @PKGaming made in the original post about critics of classic Sonic thinking the games force players to play very stop and go, when obviously that's not necessarily true.

8 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

One of the limitations of 2D is that you can only see a short distance ahead of you, which is kind of a problem when you're moving at mach 1. That's the main reason why the Classic and Boost games force you come to a screeching halt to do platforming, if they didn't you'd be liable to run right into a bottomless pit before you even knew what happened (the weird block platforming fetish the series has had since Colors doesn't help either).

Sure, It's not impossible to keep moving in the Classic games:

But, that relies heavily on memorizing the level, which is less than ideal. Speed should be a reward, but it should be a reward for skill, not clairvoyance. A good example of this done right is Sonic Adventure 2: 

Speed and platforming coexist, but they compliment each other. Slowing down may make platforming easier, but it's in no way mandatory. Conversely, going fast may make platforming more challenging, but it's a challenge that's designed to be overcome to keep your momentum going. Essentially, you can play at your own pace. Furthermore, being in 3D, the player has ample warning of oncoming hazards, meaning even first time players have a fair shot at keeping their speed up without being blindsided by a bed of spikes hiding three pixels offscreen.

So, what would I say to somebody who doesn't like the stop-and-go of the classics? I'd say "Play Sonic Adventure 2".

#SonicDoesntWorkIn2D

 

Less than ideal maybe, but that's what all 2-D games come down to when skill is in question. No one should expect to play through a game really well unless they've played it enough times obviously, but all skill is derived from memorization through practice. I can't shoot a 3-pointer in a basketball game on my first try, I certainly don't play a 2-D platformer expecting to run through it without stopping for at least a moment or two when starting out.

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I think we old fans got the skill without noticing. We just pkayed hours and hours and hours when we were children, then 20 years later we started to theorize about the gameplay and stuff. 

For running, simple, kinda fun games, there are many in mobile market.

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