Sonic Forces Livesteams @ TGS | 22nd-23rd US, 23rd-24th UK/EU/JP

[Mega]

Well, they did promise us hot breasts just like a movie. Speaking of, a pal made a response to this:
 

I just can't believe this is real. SEGA, what are you even doing, man?

[Shaddy Zaphod]

6 minutes ago, James Cloud said:

Expected reaction from this board shocker not.... don't care I like what I see I don't have to explain myself because I'm not negative bye.

Nobody's asking you to explain why you like the game. Plenty of us also like the game, myself included. I asked why you're so happy when they didn't show anything new. It's not about "being negative", it's about them literally showing nothing new. There's nothing to like or dislike here, so why are you trying to be happy and have nobody question it?

[SpongicX]

That was disappointing, no new reveals, excluding an odd cross promotion with Hooters. I'm aware that Japan's culture is very different from the West, but it is still such a strange thing to promote Sonic with. Look out folks, either Rouge is going to come out dressed as a Hooter's waitress, or  get ready for some awkward promotional Hooters costume DLC for the Avatars. As if there weren't enough creepy fetish drawings on Deviantart already... 

[Indigo Rush]

I'm dumbfounded

[Dr. Detective]

Sure, long after the game comes out, the frustration with the marketing will be a mere footnote in the history of the boards. Just like talks of "Legacy Sonic" or that time when Iizuka said "We're definitely going to see the Werehog show up again guys. Really".

However, it always sucks being IN the moment where we haven't moved past it. For once I'd like the lead up to a game to be smooth sailing. Instead they think it's fun to tell the captain to swerve towards the fucking iceberg.

That said, I find it mostly amusing that they're not showing anymore shit. Mostly because I like the idea of the rest of the game being a surprise but that's a purely personal thing, not at all driven by the very real necessity of this game needing better promotion.

I know Generations (and Lost World for that matter) showed off literally everything but they have to know there's a such thing as a middle ground by this point. It's either one extreme or the other. Super dark, serious, and complicated or super light, goofy, and nothing happening. Either only Sonic or everyone at once with completely different movesets.

Just... take a seat in the middle SEGA. It provides the absolute best view of the screen at the movie theater.

 

[PickleBrows]

Was it ever explicitly promised that new stuff would be coming from this livestream in particular? Now, something new at TGS as a whole? Yeah, you bet we're expecting that but the last I heard we were expecting something simply "at some point" at TGS.

Even though it's a Japanese event, I imagine they'd, in part, want to try and also get people from the West seeing announcements immediately and hardly any of us would've at this time of night over here.

We know how erratic SEGA are with marketing and reveals, TGS isn't over just yet.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

A while back, one of my favorite youtube creators posted this:

I honestly agree a lot with this, on a level beyond the story. If this game is good, it shouldn't matter how much they show of it before it releases. I mean, does anyone here think they really would have enjoyed Generations or Lost World more if they weren't expecting anything that went on in the games? I think I actually had a better time with Lost World since videos of the game gave me a heads-up about some of the dumber levels.

That's just me though, does anyone here think that this game would be worse off if they had shown us a bunch of other levels?

[SpongicX]

3 minutes ago, Joy said:

Was it ever explicitly promised that new stuff would be coming from this livestream in particular? Now, something new at TGS as a whole? Yeah, you bet we're expecting that but the last I heard we were expecting something simply "at some point" at TGS.

Even though it's a Japanese event, I imagine they'd, in part, want to try and also get people from the West seeing announcements immediately and hardly any of us would've at this time of night over here.

We know how erratic SEGA are with marketing and reveals, TGS isn't over just yet.

It doesn't matter, the game was announced over a year ago, it's been in development for over 4 years, and comes out in less than 2 months. Despite all that time, they keep showing the same stuff over and over, or keep showing small bits that don't last long enough to keep people's attention. So far, all we know is that Green Hill Zone and Park Avenue are the only stages, there are only 2 Sonics playable, a custom avatar, and a day one Shadow DLC (which almost seems like you're still playing as Sonic in a way.) What else does this game have to offer, besides 2 levels, a vague look into the story, and more of the same gameplay from Generations? They should at least show a little more to get people more excited. People are begging to see more, yet they're leaving us hanging. It would be nice to see some new locations shown for once, or some footage from a boss battle, or something.

Super Mario Odyssey is only a month away, it was officially revealed earlier this year, yet they had more to show about that game than Sega had to show for a game that was teased over a year ago. Sega just isn't showing enough from Sonic Forces, it's no wonder so many people are bad mouthing it. I'm still willing to give the game a chance, but I'm honestly starting to have doubts about this game. I want to like it, but it almost seems like Sega isn't showing more, because they really don't have much more to offer in this game. Regardless, I have the game preordered, and hopefully the game will manage to surprise me in a good way, but for right now, I wish Sega would give this game more hope. 

[The Deleter]

1 hour ago, Shaddy the guy said:

A while back, one of my favorite youtube creators posted this:

I honestly agree a lot with this, on a level beyond the story. If this game is good, it shouldn't matter how much they show of it before it releases. I mean, does anyone here think they really would have enjoyed Generations or Lost World more if they weren't expecting anything that went on in the games? I think I actually had a better time with Lost World since videos of the game gave me a heads-up about some of the dumber levels.

That's just me though, does anyone here think that this game would be worse off if they had shown us a bunch of other levels?

I actually did a write up about this in the status updates back when Mania was releasing, both saying I agreed with the video, but also following it up with why I disagreed that it'd apply to video games, and I brought it up to emphasize my point.

(watching the video first gives a bit more context for this post overall, btw)

Quote

I'd say that I'd agree heavily with the video, overall, as my enjoyment of many series where I've had the plot spoiled to me, didn't matter that much. For the most part, I was able to look at them from a new perspective and appreciate aspects in depth, and possibly moreso than I would have been able to otherwise. And to me, that speaks a lot about the shallowness of a plot if the twists themselves are what manages to keep the stories and pieces of media themselves interesting.

However, those twists have that moment of appeal when they recontextualize a situation for better or worse. They can be brief and inconsequential, or shake your preconceptions to the core of your being, but the thing in common they have across the entity of their usage, is that they are a moment that affects you somehow.

And to me, what is a sign of weakness in regards to a well written story for reliance, is an integral element to video games, personally. Maybe this is just my point of view on the matter, but to me, video games are all about the potential little moments that you observe during the journey. Be it the cool action scene you just witnessed a character pull off that impressed you, the sunset in a level enrapturing you in the same way one would in a particular stunning real world scenario, a level's music piece crafting an atmosphere that just pulls you in, the scares an unsuspecting scenario gave you, the challenges you've conquered, and just the overarching journey overall.

Life, for example, is a journey in and of itself. In general, it doesn't need to be analysed and dissected to the core of it's being in order to be fully appreciated, as many stories do, possibly even to the point of the initial ability to enjoy it, additionally. It thrives on these moments and memories as we make our way through it, and provides the basis of enjoyment for a lot we experience along the way. And the way video games can be appreciated as a well constructed and entertaining form of media goes hand in hand with this appeal, I feel. The best games use their moment-to-moment gameplay in the most fleshed out and rewarding way possible, and give satisfaction almost in the same way a plot twist does, as it engages the player the entirity of the time using those moments. So for a piece of media that already identifies with the appeal of a journey itself, already lends itself to these factors inherently.

I don't think that spoiler culture should rule society in any way, conclusionally similar to Super Eyepatch Wolf's ending point, as it's pretty dang unreasonable for people to follow these kind of rules rigorously when discussing any piece of media in something as broad and unintelligible as society's interests and standards. And I don't think that knowing of these potential spoilers for these moments should be the be-all-end-all deciding factor on whether you enjoy it or not. The reliance on only this element, for games such as walking simulators and "experience" games, for example, offers a very shallow experience that could have been a lot more meaningful if it had more... well, meaning behind it all. A good Sonic Stage, for another example, should be good because it's challenging, thrilling, unique, fun, deep, and also nostalgic or surprising, not because it's just nostalgic or surprising.

But I think to remove that potential element to it, when it could be so significant to your potential memories to the game and the overall experience, (rather than segmented off into your experience with it online and then experience with it while playing it) is an unfortunate loss to something so potentially meaningful to the player. At least, as meaningful as any other element in the game could be. It's why I view seeing level design ahead of time as a spoiler in the same way, as it tells you in advance how you'll be playing the game, but detached from the experience you would have had behind the controller. Same with potential challenges and their solutions. Same with the depth of a level you have yet to explore. Same with a thrilling element that you unfortunately saw beforehand. All of these are key elements to the game and it's experience, yet they can basically be deconstructed as these moments, something so shallow from the outside, they look to have just as much value as the "SHOCKING" plottwist on their own.

This, to me, is what it means to spoil a video game. To do a disservice to the experience and consume these elements in bite-sized portions separate from one another, before one another, for no real reason other than impatience. Obviously, that doesn't apply to all knowledge of a game, as you're paying money, and you should know good and well what you're putting that money down for. But anything past that point of validation, I believe is wasted potential, not necessarily on the same level of importance as a twist in a written story, and should be used as the basis for what is acceptible to be spoiled for a video game, to what degree, and what isn't.

Edit: AAAAAAAAND just like that, the Mania fiasco happens. Well, here's where it is benificial: When it reveals the faults of the game, and gives the basis of expectations you go into the game with, lest disappointment be a big part of your experience. That's personally why I treat facts such as game length and the "Level ratio" of Mania as details of the highest importance, but this is a whooooole other topic to get into tbh : P

You have to also consider that games like Generations or Forces are a lot more simplistic than a game with a billion alternate routes and gameplay decisions like Mania, so this is all the more important a factor, if you're looking to fully enjoy it, tbh.

 

Edit: Actually, it's more focused towards the question of whether or not seeing gameplay and full stages ahead of time is actually detrimental to the experience upon a reread, I guess, but still, lol

 

Full discussion here: https://board.sonicstadium.org/profile/5251-the-deleter/?status=880030&type=status

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I guess that makes sense. I'd still take everything over nothing, though. In a heartbeat.

[The Deleter]

Well I should note that, I'm not really advocating that they shouldn't be revealing any more stages for Forces. A lot of people clearly aren't sold on the game yet, and they should be given information and reasons to care, no doubt. I do think that's more a fault towards the game not providing enough incentive with it's first two worlds than not, but yeah. I'm just not one really in a hurry for them to reveal any more than 1 or 2 more zones at most, because of this mindset, as I'm sure others are as well.

[Dr. Detective]

57 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

A while back, one of my favorite youtube creators posted this:

I honestly agree a lot with this, on a level beyond the story. If this game is good, it shouldn't matter how much they show of it before it releases. I mean, does anyone here think they really would have enjoyed Generations or Lost World more if they weren't expecting anything that went on in the games? I think I actually had a better time with Lost World since videos of the game gave me a heads-up about some of the dumber levels.

That's just me though, does anyone here think that this game would be worse off if they had shown us a bunch of other levels?

I saw that video a while back. He makes good points in it. I understand where he comes from when he says it.

Doesn't really make me okay with spoilers though. Especially not when it comes to my most anticipated things in my favorite franchise. I'm good with discovering it all when I play it.

Just gotta wait through the best month of the year.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I suppose.

 

I might add however, that there is such a thing as shielding one's self from spoilers. I'm sure that if enough people were of the same opinion, we could get some better separate discussion between spoiled and non-spoiled content, and you could just...not look at anything more than you want to. I'd rather give people the choice to know more at the expense of others learning something early than starve everyone of information equally.

[Dr. Detective]

2 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

I suppose.

 

I might add however, that there is such a thing as shielding one's self from spoilers. I'm sure that if enough people were of the same opinion, we could get some better separate discussion between spoiled and non-spoiled content, and you could just...not look at anything more than you want to. I'd rather give people the choice to know more at the expense of others learning something early than starve everyone of information equally.

It's not like I'm the one who decides how much information they put out there. What I feel and what I plan to do in response to the new info isn't going to have an effect on what they do.

Most likely I'll either say "No thanks" and wait or watch it anyway and deal with what I saw.

Then move on with my life until Forces takes over my life in November regardless of whatever criticisms I have of it.

"Ah man. This level design is pants and I hate all the 2D... well anyway here's 40 bucks."

[The Deleter]

27 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

I suppose.

 

I might add however, that there is such a thing as shielding one's self from spoilers. I'm sure that if enough people were of the same opinion, we could get some better separate discussion between spoiled and non-spoiled content, and you could just...not look at anything more than you want to. I'd rather give people the choice to know more at the expense of others learning something early than starve everyone of information equally.

On one hand I agree.

On the other hand...

"If it's revealed officially, it's not spoilers" :V

In general I think it comes down to what the community decides specifically how spoilers should be handled, and what constitutes them and what doesn't. The way places like Neogaf are handling Mario Odyssey, for example, is one of the best showcases of equal consideration going on, with plenty of discussion topics happening, but near every topic is spoiler-free in the titles, spoiler and non-spoiler styled topics are almost purely consistant with very few people ever confusing them or getting spoiler-bombed unawares, and in general what constitutes a "spoiler" can extend all the way to the very first gameplay videos in the first place, given how crazy the game is.

But this goes awry an awful lot sometimes, and that's all it can take to get spoiled sometimes. Just that one post revealing that secret world, that one retweet of a new zone, or even an offhand remark in a youtube video that cuts to some amazing footage.

I don't like having the ability for that to happen to be in the wild with that kind of expectation of "if it's official, it's not spoilers" honestly, even if I don't care that much about the subject matter at hand. It'd be different if we lived in a perfect world where the Mario Odyssey situation was near universal, but I more often than not find that to be the exception of the rule tbh, which makes me veer towards both options having their merits, but overall valuing the marketing to be on the more lax side of things, due to this potential.

Also, while I may not care about Forces spoilers that much, and say, many people care about the story specifically; who's going to be looking out for their interests, specifically? Is everyone spoiler tagging their story details and theories ever since the story trailer, or... is it "too unimportant" for us? This gets really blurry when different groups of fanbases intersect, which again, makes me lean towards not having the potential of that many people becoming disappointed by spoilers, rather than "know everything".

I mean a game really should be selling itself with it's first few levels alone. It's what an opening levels should be about. Showcasing everything the game has to offer to get the player hooked. And that information, I think, is enough for the average consumer to make an informed decision on when buying a video game. It works for so many other games that aren't Sonic, why isn't it good enough for Forces?

[Gabz Girl]

Of course we get nothing new except a...Hooters promotion wtf??

Aren't TGS and EGX the last gaming conventions before Sonic Forces is released too? If we're going to be left hanging on what's in store for us after Park Avenue and Green Hill, we're in for a WILD ride! Guess there's always reviews though (unless SEGA embargoes them).

[CleverSonicUsername]

You know normally the "oh my god this is such a disaster" phase of a Sonic game comes after release.

1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

I mean a game really should be selling itself with it's first few levels alone. It's what an opening levels should be about. Showcasing everything the game has to offer to get the player hooked. And that information, I think, is enough for the average consumer to make an informed decision on when buying a video game. It works for so many other games that aren't Sonic, why isn't it good enough for Forces?

Part of the problem is that Sonic Team revealed both this and Mania way too soon, so the longer you go with little information, the more it feels like a drought rather than careful marketing. But even at this point in a games marketing cycle, we would have more to base our impressions on than this.

I can't speak for everyone, but there's a few reasons why the levels we've seen just don't do it for me. My perception of Forces is that it's a very confused game, with a menagerie of gameplay styles we've seen very little of, and zero concept of how those will be balanced and structured. The levels shown so far also seem oddly flat, uninspired, lacking the depth and flow of the zones found in Generations and Colors, games that are over half a decade old by this point. They need to do more to sell me on this being a cohesive experience and not a bunch of ideas held together with tongue depressors and duct tape.

 

[Guest]

No new stage reveals? Alright, the time until release date is really closing in, the unwillingness to show off anything else really makes me wonder if everything's alright behind the scenes or if there are really massive problems with this game (besides the obvious ones). I don't particularly mind not being shown new stages in the interest of not having them spoiled, but I very much doubt that is the motivation. Will Sonic Forces release on time?

 

Also, the Hooters promotion is legit one of the funniest things I have ever seen happen to this franchise, I love it.

what the hell is going on with this game.

[Gabz Girl]

Its almost as if SEGA and/or Sonic Team lack confidence in this game. It could be they don't want to reveal anymore besides the first two stages to keep Sonic Forces a surprise, but this is ridiculous!

We didn't see this happen with games like Sonic Lost World and Sonic Colours, and recently Sonic Mania showed us a handful of stages too before the final product was released! Why do this now? 

 

[Yuluga]

is happening as with sonic mania, we did not know anything about the game until the switch version was filtered.

[Shadowlax]

18 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

Its almost as if SEGA and/or Sonic Team lack confidence in this game. It could be they don't want to reveal anymore besides the first two stages to keep Sonic Forces a surprise, but this is ridiculous!

We didn't see this happen with games like Sonic Lost World and Sonic Colours, and recently Sonic Mania showed us a handful of stages too before the final product was released! Why do this now? 

 

The truth is, actually the whole game takes place in a hooters, your character works for tip money to help fund the Resistance and the real characters go have an adventure somewhere else. Its actually a game about brutality of service industry , and what having to look good all the time might do to your self esteem. This is the most mature sonic game yet

[SonicWind]

My simple thoughts on this whole matter: they're going to have to show more levels sooner or later.

I'm not quitting on this game. I know there's good in it.

[Salamander]

While I do think that there is a balance to be struck regarding how much of a game should be revealed in advance, I would like to stand up for the unspoilt experience here.  Only the most deluded of spoiler-consumers could deny that the unspoiled experience is a legitimate and viable way of experiencing media, but what I think is especially significant about that experience is that it can only happen once.  You can consume a work with spoilers an unlimited number of times, but there'll only ever be one time a person can experience a work without spoilers, and there is no going back from it, barring amnesia or a years-later loss of memory.  (Show me the book which vanishes into the ether the moment it is completed, never to return!)  To wish to deny people that once-in-a-lifetime experience is peculiarly selfish.  I imagine the spoiler-rich viewpoint which dictates that everything should be known in advance must find it infuriating that people have not only always enjoyed serialsied fiction, in which complete spoilers are largely impossible, but that such fiction is now arguably more popular than ever before, with books, films, and television series increasingly relying on continuity, cliffhangers, and serialisation in general.  People - maybe not all people, but a huge number - enjoy a degree of controlled surprise, and it is strange to object with outrage (as some spoiler-obsessives do) to that perfectly natural and healthy interest.  Besides, creators are working for the unspoiled consumer, of course; if a person knows exactly what is going to happen, why would they bother to experience it at all?  This is particularly crucial to the mystery and puzzle genres.  Show me the person who will not complete a sudoku unless they have already been given a copy of the answers to work from.  And mystery, or suspense, is a genre which is working its way into increasing numbers of other fictions to gratify that human need for surprise, for the unknown.  And that is partly because the experience of relating to mysteries in fiction is, in fact, every bit as intellectual an exercise as completing a puzzle; it is a creative exercise, effectively a game of saying "If I were the writer, I would complete the story thus."  If complete spoilers are consumed, this creative exercise is entirely lost, reduced only to a dry critical understanding of the function of each part of a story.  Which is an interesting exercise in itself, of course - but it is not one which a person can be forever barred from.

Now, to approach the question of the balance of spoilers, we have to acknowledge that, for a person to consume a work requires an investment of both time and money - more so with a video game than with a book or a movie, for example.  That investment requires a degree of trust in the creator, and thus proportionately more trust for a video game's creators.  Because it is more to ask, then generally it is reasonable for more of a video game to be revealed first, so that that trust can be increased - or, to think of it another way, for "faith" to be replaced with "guarantee."  This is particularly true of Sonic Forces, where I don't think it is unreasonable to say that the creators do not possess an exceptional amount of trust from the fanbase.  For some, the revealed material has, in fact, even lost trust!  In that situation, it is entirely rational to ask for more to be shown before an investment can be decided upon.  This is beside the salient fact, stated above, that experience of a game is more than just knowing what it looks like; it is knowing how it plays.  Still, the visuals provide a sense of continuity and achievement as more is revealed, which is another important feature of the unknown.  But with the Sonic Forces marketing so far there is an especial difficulty, which is that the material we have already been shown has lots its novelty.  We have seen it so many times that it ceases entirely to excite; instead, it bores.  This is a disaster when trying to sell a product!  I'm sure we would all dearly like to be excited by Sonic Forces, so again, it is rational to desire to be shown something which we are not already exhausted of.  I don't think it's unfair to draw a parallel to Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, which have also been accused of not showing us enough new content to justify a purchase, and which have recently begun to show content which at last had no precedent in the known.  Those games come out about a fortnight after Sonic Forces.  Is it really so much to ask that Sega throw us even a crust of nourishment?

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

At this point, when the game releases, fans will be able to play park avenue and green hill with their eyes closed.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Huh, I thought that girl looked familiar. Interesting....