Sonic Forces - Shadow DLC and new Screenshot

[Meta77]

8 minutes ago, Diamond Dragon X said:

Or maybe people like the direction of the series and want to show it to SEGA?

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean others don't as well.

Exactly. Just a quick refresh of the yt page and people are loving the direction this games going. Some may not want.it.to sell but from what we see oh yea it's going to sell decent to well.

[Mark1]

Regarding the footage - feels very Colours like. Which is both good and bad. 

A lot of what was shown was decent. But some of the 2D felt extensive after about half way into the video.

The Biolizard remix is amazing though. And it's good to see Shadow has some moves to separate him from Sonic.

[DonWaffleleven]

3 hours ago, Jovahexeon Ace Joranvexeon said:

" Team Dark mission with Shadow and Rouge".

Hmmm, could it be one of those tag team levels but done with those two instead?

Ah no way Sonic Team will give the fans everything they want in one fell swoop. I'd get the PC version and wait for mods.

Same for any actually good stages cos this... wow. Sega can really sell (As far as you can "sell" a free DLC) the rejected stages designs from Sonic Colours by... doing what they should have done ages ago and making Shadow playable? Are we really that desperate?

[SpongicX]

While I would prefer seeing Tails, Knuckles, and Amy get the same treatment, this is still a nice surprise. Free dlc, Shadow playable, 3 new stages, and some revelation to why he joined Infinite.

I'm especially relieved that Shadow can replay through some of Modern Sonic's levels. Just being brought in for 3 short levels may have been underwhelming. I can imagine this confirms that levels can be replayed with communications turned off? 

This does give me hope that others can be made playable through dlc. The game is $40 afterall, so a few extra paid dlc packs might not hurt. We don't necessarily need more story modes, just a few more characters, levels, and avatar costumes would be nice.

[Gabz Girl]

18 minutes ago, Diamond Dragon X said:

Or maybe people like the direction of the series and want to show it to SEGA?

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean others don't as well.

I really don't want to see the Sonic series go in this direction, and other Sonic fans don't either. Why can't we get GREAT 3D Sonic games and not "just okay" ones? I don't want to see Sonic become a boost2win blocky platforming fest  gameplay wise with shoe-horned in Classic Sonic. Sonic Team needs to take notes from Sonic Mania.

[SpongicX]

5 hours ago, Hard-Boiled Wisp said:

Oh my god we're actually getting Modern gameplay DLC that isn't pinball. 

Thanks SEGA.

Also over 10 Modern stages? Guess that confirms that there's 10+ stages, one more than Generations.

We still don't know how many stages the other 2 characters get. Was it confirmed if Classic and Avatar would get exclusive stages that Modern Sonic can't access, or are they all variants of a same level? We might have a total of roughly 33 levels, including Shadow's story.

[Meta77]

2 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

I really don't want to see the Sonic series go in this direction, and other Sonic fans don't either. Why can't we get GREAT 3D Sonic games and not "just okay" ones? I don't want to see Sonic become a boost2win blocky platforming fest  gameplay wise with shoe-horned in Classic Sonic. Sonic Team seriously needs to take notes from Sonic Mania.

I really don't want to see the Sonic series go in this direction, and other Sonic fans don't either. Why can't we get GREAT 3D Sonic games and not "just okay" ones? I don't want to see Sonic become a boost2win blocky platforming fest  gameplay wise with shoe-horned in Classic Sonic. Sonic Team seriously needs to take notes from Sonic Mania.

See that's the thing what makes one sonic fan some god in knowing "what's right" and what they like is how the series should be cause they know so well. While others that are excited for it are just wrong and unless you agree with how we think the series should be were the fans Sega should listen to. Not the hundreds literally spamming yt and twitter and tumblr and fb. Excited for the game.

And no we got sonic mania they do not need notes on a 2d game. Yea mania was good but it's literally passed now. No one's playing it as heavily as launch week.  forces is honestly appealing to a younger crowd more than mania ever could reach.

[SpongicX]

5 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Hey, here's a thought.
A popular theory on why Shadow and the rest are evil again is because Infinite took them from their original timelines when they were still evil.
Now we get 3 levels with Shadow based on his backstory.... Which would take place during Sonic adventure 2.

Then remembeing that Sonic Forces seems to be repeating the same levels from Sonic Generations again like Green Hill, and (Very likely) Chemical plant and Sky Sanctuary, I suppose that means Shadow's levels take place in City escape.

 

...And now I'm wondering if Shadow's the only playable villain....
Are we going to get a Chaos DLC storyline?
Pfft, that'd be funny. I suppose Metal Sonic and Shadow can easily copy Classic and Modern Sonic's gameplay, but Chaos and Zavok will be harder to place.
Maybe they get the Tag team levels. Yay, Zavok and Chaos fistbumping each other.

All this stuff is probably unlikely, but it's fun to think about it regardless.

Except it's confirmed that Shadow was assisting Rouge to find Omega, to start off this prologue. If this was from the time Shadow was evil, he never would have met Omega yet.

[KHCast]

5 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

See that's the thing what makes one sonic fan some god in knowing "what's right" and what they like is how the series should be cause they know so well. While others that are excited for it are just wrong and unless you agree with how we think the series should be were the fans Sega should listen to. Not the hundreds literally spamming yt and twitter and tumblr and fb. Excited for the game.

And no we got sonic mania they do not need notes on a 2d game. Yea mania was good but it's literally passed now. No one's playing it as heavily as launch week.  forces is honestly appealing to a younger crowd more than mania ever could reach.

But why do we always need to remind people that "well some people like what's there?" Like no shit yes we know and are very aware of that, but why is that now the response to when someone expresses how they personally don't like the direction? Yes, remind us tons of people like it, your point? No ones saying you're wrong, just that we think and approach this differently 

[Milo]

Honestly feel that Episode Shadow DLC is something that should had been in the base game, but hey, it's free. Though with that gameplay clip shown, that's easily the least of my problems.

I refuse to mince words--that Shadow gameplay was atrocious. I didn't think the Classic Sonic Forces Green Hill could be topped in its abysmal quality but this somehow did it.

More of the same stock enemies who do nothing but stand there and maybe shoot after a few seconds. 

More of the same layout strategy of lining them up in short rows so they can be knocked down like bowling pins.

Shadow having that garbage automated Homing Attack chain from Lost World that just blazes through long strings of enemies with just one tap of the button, with lengthy rows of flying enemies laid out to match.

Shadow also having a ridiculous expanded Homing Attack range that allows him to hit enemies from several yards away. Some of those clips had Shadow eating through the level design due to how far the expanded range allows you to spam the HA.

More stop-and-go style precision platforming over bottomless pits, that breaks any attempt at gameplay flow whatsoever.

Instant-contact springs placed solely to launch players into arms reach of HA chains.

More flat terrain almost entirely comprised of platforms sitting over bottomless pits. I saw what, just one slope in that entire footage? 

The level layout comprised of ugly black boxes or gray Radical Highway-striped platforms that don't even try to match the setting. How do I coherency in level theme and level design structure.

And of course, this is all crammed into yet another 2D level, and it's still the same Green Hill with Sand Zone.

The only good thing I can say is that unlike the other levels, there didn't seem to be any dash panel abuse (I don't think I even saw a dash panel), but if that's honestly the best thing I can say about it I may as well be damning the level with faint praise.

There's a lot of things about Forces I'm not a fan of, but the level design/game design is the one exception here that genuinely makes me outright vitriolic rather than simply disappointed or unimpressed. Some of the problems I've listed have been mired in past Sonic games, so they're not particularly new; but Forces in particular shaping up to be a new nadir of bad design decisions. This goes beyond subpar design and treads into a territory of outright laziness. If Sega's not going to hand Sonic to another studio/division completely, the least Sega/Sonic Team could do is ban Kishimoto and his crew of designers from handling another Sonic game again. If that means risking a completely fresh team then so be it; because at this point a Kishimoto crew-directed/designed Sonic game has as much value as no Sonic game.

[Toa Axis]

10 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

See that's the thing what makes one sonic fan some god in knowing "what's right" and what they like is how the series should be cause they know so well. While others that are excited for it are just wrong and unless you agree with how we think the series should be were the fans Sega should listen to. Not the hundreds literally spamming yt and twitter and tumblr and fb. Excited for the game.

And no we got sonic mania they do not need notes on a 2d game. Yea mania was good but it's literally passed now. No one's playing it as heavily as launch week.  forces is honestly appealing to a younger crowd more than mania ever could reach.

While I can agree that folks shouldn't get too dogmatic about their opinions, and I can simultaneously understand the fact that many are exited for Forces, I don't really understand why those excited disagree with the core arguments of Forces' detractors (unless the primary issue has do with attitude in some cases). Wanting better level design, more malleable mechanics, etc. isn't anathema to being excited for Forces. You can still be excited but see that some of these things have been done better in prior games.

And also, as long as Sonic Team emulates the Classic gameplay, they most definitely have a lot to learn from Mania. Like, what we're getting in Forces is strictly worse in that regard (this does not mean unenjoyable, necessarily).

EDIT: Keep in mind that the arguments of the Forces detractors mainly come from a game design perspective. Pointing out that others are excited for it doesn't really do anything to address those arguments.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Meanwhile, I hope it doesn't.

And that's not out of spite or vindictiveness. I hope the numbers aren't good so that Sega is forced to reevaluate their approach. If Forces sells well, it stands to reason that we'll get more games that play like Forces - which, based on the trailer footage we've seen, isn't the direction I want the series to go.

So yeah, to me, the game failing could potentially spell better things for the franchise in the long run. Could be the shock Sega needs to switch up their design philosophy.

You and I both know this will at least do well. The game is popular no matter how much we may dislike it.

[Gabz Girl]

What Sonic Team needs is a complete overhaul; get some new developers in, some new blood. Even if Sonic Forces sells fine I think it would be a great idea to go back, look at their Classics and older 3D Sonic games (Adventure series and yes, even Heroes), make notes on what worked and what didn't work and try to improve the gameplay. 

[Feanor]

19 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

See that's the thing what makes one sonic fan some god in knowing "what's right" and what they like is how the series should be cause they know so well. While others that are excited for it are just wrong and unless you agree with how we think the series should be were the fans Sega should listen to. Not the hundreds literally spamming yt and twitter and tumblr and fb. Excited for the game.

If you and many others are excited for the game then that's great, I hope you enjoy it. However there is also a large number of people who just expect better from Sonic Team because they've already shown us with previous titles that they can do better. People are going to call out Forces issues because they just want to see a truly great 3D Sonic game and not have to settle for mediocrity. 

19 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

And no we got sonic mania they do not need notes on a 2d game. Yea mania was good but it's literally passed now. No one's playing it as heavily as launch week.  forces is honestly appealing to a younger crowd more than mania ever could reach.

They absolutely should take notes from Mania. Like it or not Forces has plenty of 2D segments in it, so they might as well be good. 

[Meta77]

Well with that out the way I hope we get another 3 disc ost with this game

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Wow, once again Sonic Forces manages to be exactly what I want and love AND exactly what I feared and hate at the same time.
Playing this game will be such a weird experience.

[superman43]

16 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

What Sonic Team needs is a complete overhaul; get some new developers in, some new blood. Even if Sonic Forces sells fine I think it would be a great idea to go back, look at their Classics and older 3D Sonic games (Adventure series and yes, even Heroes), make notes on what worked and what didn't work and try to improve the gameplay. 

Sonic Forces won´t sell "fine", I guess. And you are right they did much better job in Classics (I think though that Christian Whitehead, Stealth, PagodaWest and the rest are far more competent in this area) so they should focus on the better aspects of Adventure 1, 2 and Heroes. 

I would like a 3D game resembling Heroes structure (2 levels of same theme with a minor differences + boss), more focused on Sonic´s Adventure 1 and Sonic´s/Shadow´s Adventure 2 gameplay. 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

The silver lining of the ugliness getting this bad is that critics all over will single out bland, blocky level design as one of Forces' shortcomings. If Sonic Team reads reviews, which they actually do seem to, this will be rubbed in their faces. 

[Dizcrybe]

9 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

The silver lining of the ugliness getting this bad is that critics all over will single out bland, blocky level design as one of Forces' shortcomings. If Sonic Team reads reviews, which they actually do seem to, this will be rubbed in their faces. 

And they'll overcompensate for it in a way that nobody actually wanted.

[DonWaffleleven]

37 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

What Sonic Team needs is a complete overhaul; get some new developers in, some new blood. Even if Sonic Forces sells fine I think it would be a great idea to go back, look at their Classics and older 3D Sonic games (Adventure series and yes, even Heroes), make notes on what worked and what didn't work and try to improve the gameplay. 

That was what they did with Unleashed apparantly: bring in students fresh from college to design a game with a fresh new direction.

It clearly didn't take if the same crusty toads from before are still running the show with added block platforming and 3D hallways. (The Hacks guide to getting an above average score on Metacritic right there. God, what was wrong with us back then?), Said graduates either jumped the sinking ship or are at ST right now, slaving away on bastardizations of Unleashed.

[Dash Speed]

Wow Shadow's a playable character after 11 years finally. Shadow has fans and haters in this thread so I need to know should Shadow get better treatment now since basically still has controversial as ever now that he literally has gameplay mechanics that look Sonic-y.

[The Deleter]

3 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

Wow Shadow's a playable character after 11 years finally. Shadow has fans and haters in this thread so I need to know should Shadow get better treatment now since basically still has controversial as ever now that he literally has gameplay mechanics that look Sonic-y.

Basically:

Do this, but in a better designed game, and utilize him fully in the game proper.

Not many are complaining about Shadow's gameplay specifically in this thread, really. Just the content it's showcased in. For the most part they got him perfectly fine as a playable character in the Boost series.

[Shadowlax]

35 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Wow, once again Sonic Forces manages to be exactly what I want and love AND exactly what I feared and hate at the same time.
Playing this game will be such a weird experience.

This game is a rotating wheel of monkey's paws

[Dash Speed]

For the the rest of the responses,

Shadow(one of my favorites) IMO hasn't gotten the best press lately, he's largely absent from all main games story wise since 06, he stars in a show that is pandered as a joke to his fanbase(ow the edge), he can't warm the classic trio fanbase/Eggman to his side so they give him villain roles and boss battles to beat him as Sonic,  in the comics he jobs alot and basically made himself more emo than ever in the games, then now Sonic Mania comes out and people love it returning to form the true sonic experience for Sonic and Tails and Knuckles as gameplay giants, I feel that Shadow earned his popularity and has been getting passed off as some other sonic copy that has barely the worth to make improvement on due to a controversial fandom, so Sonic forces gives us playable Shadow and some people still complain. I still don't think it's fair for the minor complaints about him should matter, he's like Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Metal Sonic and Eggman in being a staple in sonic franchise history, to have some right to come back, the fans need a indication he's served his time and the Shadow fans need some boost in making give sonic team faith in them. So yeah, I'm glad Shadow's playable, it's not perfect but it's something, I just need the mania crew to work on his game play from now on.

[NegaMix]

Well, this was a surprise! And it happened right after I'd made a guess as to what Shadow's deal was in another topic! (Seems like I wasn't too far off, either.)

The fact that it's free DLC, along with allowing Shadow to be playable in (most of?) Sonic's stages too, is pretty cool. I wasn't expecting a remix of Supporting Me to play in his stage, so that's a neat throwback. (Perhaps his other two stages will have remixes of SA2 Shadow tracks?) But then there's that level design...

Looking back at the previous Boost games, I think Generations had arguably the best level design for Boost stages. There are a decent amount of levels that I'd revisit from that game from time to time, and even Unleashed had some stages that I didn't mind replaying. Colours, however, is a game that I never wanted to return to after finishing it. None of the stage layouts from that game ever stuck in my head like Unleashed or Generations, and the heavy emphasis on (literal) blocky platforming in most of its stages was a massive turnoff for me. If there's one Boost game that I legitimately hate, it's Sonic Colours.

...And I'm really worried that Forces is gonna repeat that.

From what's been shown out of Sonic Forces' Modern stages so far, I've never really thought, "Oh hey! This reminds me of Generations!" but rather, "Oh shit. This remind me of Colours..." and I've been hoping that this won't be the case. But after seeing more Modern (and Avatar) segments? After seeing this?

I don't see an evolution of the Boost here, I see a devolution. Less 'Generations 2.0', more 'Colours in 4K'. *sighs* At least I'll finally play the game in a few days...