Iizuka: There will not be a Sonic Adventure 3 & what future Sonic titles will be like

[Detective Kaito]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

I mean, yeah, I totally agree that it's their closest attempt (because they basically stopped trying at all immediately afterward). But just being the best they've tried doesn't mean it's good enough to be worth using as a base. SA Sonic is a severely flawed game, and I don't see the value in starting there and trying to fix all its problems compared to reexamining the series' core mechanics and strengths and building a new interpretation of 3D Sonic from scratch. There is so little I can point to in SA and say "yes, this is good, learn from this" compared to how many places the game falls short.

Ah, I see. In that case, I do agree. Sonic Adventure's Sonic is very flawed, so basically if they made a new interpretation of 3D Sonic from scratch, the ideal gameplay would be something like Utopia.

[Blue Wisp]

3 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Can't Sonic dye his hair? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The public confuses a blue hedgehog with quills going down with a black hedgehog with red stripes with four quills going up even though footage shows both hedgehogs at the same time?

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[SenEDDtor Missile]

5 minutes ago, Hard-Boiled Wisp said:

The public confuses a blue hedgehog with quills going down with a black hedgehog with red stripes with four quills going up even though footage shows both hedgehogs at the same time?

}

Well in fairness, at the time Sonic was pretty much the only known hedgehog with super speed. It's not too big of a stretch for an assumption to go around that Shadow was just Sonic with a bad disguise. Granted they probably could have mentioned that as an in-universe theory so that it would elaborate on things, but it's not too hard of a conclusion to come to.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Let's remember what Shadow (or "Terios" as he was known at this point) looked like during development.

It's still a case of poor planning, but this thing looks more like Sonic than Shadow does, so it's entirely possible the story was written and decided upon before the design was finalized.

Sonic plot are always a load of bullshit anyway but I'll defend this one point to forgetfulness rather than stupidity.

[DonWaffleleven]

1 minute ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Let's remember what Shadow (or "Terios" as he was known at this point) looked like during development.

It's still a case of poor planning, but this thing looks more like Sonic than Shadow does, so it's entirely possible the story was written and decided upon before the design was finalized.

and knowing the shocking state of video game story writing (especially Sonic stories), they wouldn't have been able to rewrite it based on the new design and a more plausable explanation.

[Blue Wisp]

1 minute ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Well in fairness, at the time Sonic was pretty much the only known hedgehog with super speed. It's not too big of a stretch for an assumption to go around that Shadow was just Sonic with a bad disguise. Granted they probably could have mentioned that as an in-universe theory so that it would elaborate on things, but it's not too hard of a conclusion to come to.

So you're telling me, in a game where a military organization killed everyone working aboard the Space Colony including young child which led to the insanity of the Space Colony's main scientist who made a secret plan for revenge to kill every human on Earth by crashing the Space Colony with the planet if certain conditions are met, in a game where that happens, a plot device and MAJOR plot point is that the public think that a blue hedgehog is disguising himself with black and red paint and brushing his quills to steal banks?

I'm sorry man. I can't help but think that Sonic Adventure 2's plot is stupid. You can think whatever you want about it, it's your choice and it's out of my bounds, but for me, Sonic Adventure 2's story is stupid and should not be something that future games take inspiration from.

[JezMM]

43 minutes ago, DonWaffleleven said:

"Doesn't want to do an Adventure 3 because it would be a regression of the series.

Happily greenlit the classic throwback Sonic Mania."

Can we add "hypocrite" to the list of colourful words we use to describe Iizuka?

I think an important context that some fans may not be forgetting is that the Sonic Adventure games have had a very spotty reception, particularly in retrospect.  The difference between them and Mania is that Mania was going back to a tried and tested proven "good" formula.  Despite missing the nuances of why we happily consumed it, Sonic Forces is technically the same deal for what was in Sonic Generations.

Going back to Adventure is to go back to a very iffy, flawed and unpolished period of Sonic with no clear rules considering the Adventure games are full of differences and inconsistencies between one another, particularly when we consider Heroes, Shadow and 2006 to be "Adventure-style" games too.  That could easily be what he means by a regression.  "Going back to something we never nailed down in the first place".  Boost gameplay and classic gameplay (both the proper Mania kind and the imitation Generations kind) are fairly nailed down.  A lot of people DON'T like their principles but like, they "work", they have a formula figured out for it.

Adventure, not so much.  Their continual inability to nail it down lead to Unleashed, and heck, the fact that to them, boost gameplay was just "the latest iteration of our continued changes to 3D Sonic formula" is probably why internally they don't consider Adventure Sonic to be a seperate entity from Modern Sonic in character or gameplay.  Every 3D Sonic game has been an attempt to refine or progress what the last one did, and that eventually lead us to Boost gameplay.

 

Compare it to this: a bunch of the Left 4 Dead fanbase were quite vocal about how they preferred the look of the game in the beta footage.  It was grittier and darker they'd say.  We prefer this aspect of the gameplay, we prefer these character designs etc.  They often lamented "I wish Valve could have finished that version of the game".  One day a developer actually responded to this conversation saying like "...we did finish that version of the game.  It's the game you played.  That was just a snapshot of it's development, it was constantly changing every day, and the decisions we made as we "finished" it lead to the version you now have.  We'd make those same decisions again."

I imagine, internally, Sonic Team views the progression of 3D Sonic in the same way.  Iizuka doesn't really get why people want Sonic Adventure again because to them, it's like saying "hey go back to this work in progress and finish it... like... differently."  Because likely, he'd make the same decisions to "fix" issues with the gameplay over again, and we'd still end up with something similar to modern Sonic.

 

Of course, it's still totally reasonable to be frustrated by this as an audience, but maybe I've shed light on a potential way of looking at it from their side that some people haven't considered, because we as a fanbase are so fixated on seperating and categorising Sonic games into eras and types.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

13 minutes ago, Hard-Boiled Wisp said:

The public confuses a blue hedgehog with quills going down with a black hedgehog with red stripes with four quills going up even though footage shows both hedgehogs at the same time?

}

Considering that just a game before this, those same people saw Sonic eyes and spines turn into a different color with his spines raised in the exact same position as Shadow's, yeah. I can believe it.

[TheOcelot]

Guys we really should THANK GOD FOR SONIC MANIA ...because it's the best thing Iizuka-san is gonna give us anytime soon.

As for bringing back Sonic Adventure gameplay; the only thing I would want is Sonic's gameplay from SA (which was flawed and could definitely be improved on) and the level design of all ten stages in Sonic's story, because each stage was brilliantly unique and had some really good design. I always have a good time playing through Sonic's story. Nothing else in Adventure is worth bringing back.

[DonWaffleleven]

2 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Of course, it's still totally reasonable to be frustrated by this, but maybe I've shed light on a potential way of looking at it that some people having considered, because we as a fanbase are so fixated on seperating and categorising Sonic games into eras and types.

If Sonic Teams idea of evolving the 3D Sonic formula is 3D hallways, 2D block platforming and freaking Wisp powers... then yeah, I'm gonna be frustrated. Even more so if this is the "natural" evolution of the series and not a change in direction that the negative reception of a game like 2006 would warrant.

Also, all the other comments in this thread pointing out the same Words to Actions disconnect and you chose mine. Any particular reason?

[Detective Kaito]

Sonic X does a slightly better job in conveying the "mistaking Sonic for Shadow" thing, cause the military doesn't get a good view of Shadow and Rouge actually points out that the hedgehog in the video isn't Sonic.

[DonWaffleleven]

Also, since when did this become the "unofficial Sonic Adventure 2 has a poorly explained narrative" thread? SA2's story is not the best but it's also not the worst. The End.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

8 minutes ago, TheOcelot said:

THANK GOD FOR SONIC MANIA

I'd rather not, thanks.

So at this point, I have to wonder if there are any plans for a 3D Sonic game that controls differently from the boosting games and also isn't Lost World's train wreck design.

Cause I'm going to forever doubt it until something pops up to prove me otherwise.

[Your Vest Friend]

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

So what is Mania then?

Honestly, a pretty poor example. 

[KHCast]

4 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Honestly, a pretty poor example. 

So it wasn't a step back to the classic era to give classic fans what they wanted ?

[Badnik Mechanic]

4 minutes ago, KHCast said:

So it wasn't a step back to the classic era to give classic fans what they wanted ?

It was a step back to the classic era, but it certainly was an advancement of it.

[Shadowlax]

Quote

“I hear people saying that they want Adventure 3, but the path that we’re on and ... Adventure 3, what fans want that to be, might not be an advancement of the series, [...] So I don’t want to do an Adventure 3 and step the franchise back just to give the fans what they want.”

Oh damn

You shouldn't have said, that's the developer curse. You are gonna end up making it now . You should have just been quiet, the valve method. 

 

Also how they worded that is super funny " we wont do this thing that people want, we want to do things people statistically speaking have mostly been unhappy with outside of two games. This is the future of sonic" 

I get what he's trying to say, its just poorly worded

[Blue Blood]

12 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Honestly, a pretty poor example. 

+1 for that lol 

But what do you mean? Mania was going back and giving the fans what they want (and so was S4 in theory). It went back to the Classic style and advanced on it.

I think that that's all anyone is asking for with SA3. I guess it does come down to the rather tenuous matter of defining what would make a game SA3 as opposed to any other 3D Sonic game, but still. The principle doesn't make sense. If Iizuka was happy for Mania to happen, why does his argument against SA3 contradict Mania?

[Waveshocker Sigma]

4 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

It was a step back to the classic era, but it certainly was an advancement of it.

I don't see how Sonic 3 & Knuckles but not as good with levels from 1, 2, itself and CD plus few original levels is considered an "advancement" considering Mania does nothing new outside of it's Special Stages, but if you say so.

Still a good game, though. In the end, I suppose that's all that matters.

[DonWaffleleven]

1 minute ago, Blue Blood said:

I think that that's all anyone is asking for with SA3. I guess it does come down to the rather tenuous matter of defining what would make a game SA3 as opposed to any other 3D Sonic game, but still. The principle doesn't make sense. If Iizuka was happy for Mania to happen, why does his argument against SA3 contradict Mania?

Pretty much my take. The next game could be called "Sonic and the Spooky Darkness" but i'd buy it if it played like an Adventure formula game. Wasn't it Shakespeare who said "A rose by any other name would be just as sweet?"

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Blue Blood said:

If Iizuka was happy for Mania to happen, why does his argument against SA3 contradict Mania?

The same reason SE said that about ff7

Because that shit cost money. Modern sonic adventure, withe everything one would expect is far out of the scope and range of ANYTHING sega wants to do , because that shit costs money. And if they ever reach a point where they feel like they have to make it, much like ff7 they will run the fuck back everything they said to sell you that game. 

Sonic adventure 3, like now would be expensive as hell. Because games have evolved, like chao world, like strait up would have to have enough shit in it to be its own modern game, and it would need like mobile app companions and chao world specific dlc. Not to mention unique levels for every character, music, actual like expenses poured into cut scenes. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

6 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

The principle doesn't make sense. If Iizuka was happy for Mania to happen, why does his argument against SA3 contradict Mania?

Probably because it's not called Sonic the Hedgehog 5.

 

Also why do I get the feeling the issue of them not wanting to do it and the whole 'let's add new stuff to advance the series' isn't an Iizuka problem, it's more of a Sonic Team as a collective don't want to do it?

[DonWaffleleven]

3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Sonic adventure 3, like now would be expensive as hell. Because games have evolved, like chao world, like strait up would have to have enough shit in it to be its own modern game, and it would need like mobile app companions and chao world specific dlc. Not to mention unique levels for every character, music, actual like expenses poured into cut scenes. 

Gosh, it's almost as if some actual time and effort would have to go into such a game and not subsist solely of 2D block platforming and linear 3D hallways. Oh the horror.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, DonWaffleleven said:

Gosh, it's almost as if some actual time and effort would have to go into such a game and not subsist solely of 2D block platforming and linear 3D hallways. Oh the horror.

You are joking

That's litterally it. Unless they get to a point where the pro's outweighs the cons. 

[DonWaffleleven]

4 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Also why do I get the feeling the issue of them not wanting to do it and the whole 'let's add new stuff to advance the series' isn't an Iizuka problem, it's more of a Sonic Team as a collective don't want to do it?

Might just be a symptom of being worked down to the bone while making nothing but Sonic games. Let them take a vacation, maybe work on a Burning Rangers game or two, let somebody who knows what the hell they're actually doing is passionate for the project take over for a while. Maybe this gives ST the distance to look at the monster they created the series in hindsight.