Sonic Forces TGS interview

[Sean]

Meanwhile Sonic Mania has no missions and I clocked in dozens of hours because the game encourages you to replay levels and explore different paths as different characters aaaarrrrrgggghhhh

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Oh golly fucking gosh Mania is better than Forces what a massive surprise I've never heard anyone say that before.

...apologies. It's just, yes we know the classic games and all their multiple holier-than-thou pathways are all about replayability and efficient design and all that, but since we know for a fact that modern Sonic isn't efficiently designed in that sense, we might as well communicate on other ways it could be replayable (because such ways do exist) or at least long enough to be worth the money. It isn't like there's much speculation to be done on the core gameplay, after all.

[Tornado]

15 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

It's just, yes we know the classic games and all their multiple holier-than-thou pathways are all about replayability and efficient design and all that

You forgot "technical proficiency"

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

9 hours ago, Eternal EX said:

Keep in mind. While GHZ and PA were very short stages. Unleashed and Generations had it's few super short stages. Then the behemoth Eggmanland, Excellent (and still my all time favorite sonic stage) Jungle joyride, and Spagonia (generations). JJ was easily a 4-10 minute stage. While Eggman took me a max of 35 mins. With all of this said, Sonic isn't known for extremely long stages.

Excluding the opening tutorial stage, can you name an Unleashed main stage that was super short compared to Forces? I can't. Yes you can speedrun Windmill Isle Act 2 but if you're a first timer, you won't able to finish it within 3 minutes especially with an underpowered Sonic (don't get me wrong, you can still finish the level under 2/3 mins with an underpowered Sonic, but you NEED to know what you're doing which is why first timers can't accomplish this).

We've GOT to stop comparing Unleashed HD with Forces, right now Unleashed is on a whole different level that Forces can't reach.

 

EDIT: JJ is only a 4 minute stage if are speedrunning and know all its traps/exploits beforehand. Otherwise, it's a 7-10 minute stage. 

[Your Vest Friend]

49 minutes ago, Sean said:

Meanwhile Sonic Mania has no missions and I clocked in dozens of hours because the game encourages you to replay levels and explore different paths as different characters aaaarrrrrgggghhhh

Eh, I only got like 4 hours out of it. I've played more of the Generations missions than that.

[Sean]

35 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Oh golly fucking gosh Mania is better than Forces what a massive surprise I've never heard anyone say that before.

...apologies. It's just, yes we know the classic games and all their multiple holier-than-thou pathways are all about replayability and efficient design and all that, but since we know for a fact that modern Sonic isn't efficiently designed in that sense, we might as well communicate on other ways it could be replayable (because such ways do exist) or at least long enough to be worth the money. It isn't like there's much speculation to be done on the core gameplay, after all.

Next time you have a problem with someone's opinion not being constructive enough, can you try actually being more constructive in response to it than you are now? Because you come off as a lot more bitter and ruder about it in your post than I did in mine, even after you immediately apologize for your sarcasm.

[A_W]

1 hour ago, FFWF said:

As someone who's played all of them, I can honestly say that they were the living embodiment of quantity over quality.

What, you didn't think that grinding Play Coins for the privilege of playing Emerald Coast: More Boxes Edition was an enriching, compelling gameplay experience? ^{I beat them all too and I hate my life}

It's strange, but I've never really thought about what the missions in Forces could entail. Now that you've mentioned Rush Adventure and Generations 3DS, though, I think that's exactly what they'll be. I wonder just how many cheap longevity tricks there'll be in the final product. We've already seen Colours-style reusing/reworking of existing levels, and they're artificially drawing 100% completion out with the way Wispons work, too. What else could they be doing?

God, I miss Unleashed and its long, meaty stages like Jungle Joyride and Rooftop Run... Even the shorter stages like Cool Edge, Savannah Citadel and Skyscraper Scamper were good because there were so many unique things and distinctly different areas in them.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

Is there gonna be a translation yet?

I hope we see more levels soon. We can only get so much joy out of seeing park avenue and green hill and it's brothers again. yay.

[Meta77]

I'm glad those if you that love mania more than a newborn puppy have got dozens upon dozens of hours of enjoyment exploring every single pathway the game offers though they change the end goal in no way besides one being faster. I got about total 8 hours playtime from it and got all the emeralds. Goofed around with debug. And tried for gold medals and I'm basically done with it. Just like all classic Sonics. Of course I'm go back some days to play it bit for now I've run it through the ground.

 

Yes many here like to remind you how amazing mania is anytime they can in a forces thread

 

Regardless aren't most sonic stages short if all you do is blast through them. Nearly all of sa2 I swore a rank times were under either 3 or 2 minutes for a A rank aren't they?

 

 

[Sean]

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Yes many here like to remind you how amazing mania is anytime they can in a forces thread

Show some proof that I or other members actually do this, or knock it off with the strawmanning.

[Meta77]

Meanwhile Sonic Mania has no missions and I clocked in dozens of hours because the game encourages you to replay levels and explore different paths as different characters aaaarrrrrgggghhhh

This to me reads as noting more than mania better cause it does this better cause the 11 stages mania gave offer dozens of hours of fun . May not seem that way to you but seeing a few repl8es after it a few take it that way. Sadly no one can argue cause you have mod status.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway. Even if stages are shortage people rushing through them city escape used to seem big to me but you can blow through it under 2 minutes including the truck section

[Sean]

21 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Sadly no one can argue cause you have mod status.

Alright, I'm sick of your constant smarmy shit so for this comment you can just take a few weeks off. This was completely uncalled for and you seem to lack the ability to discuss things without strawmans, stealth insults, or low-brow attacks on others for unrelated reasons such as their mod status.

[Dr. Detective]

I understand the frustration that comes with wanting the game you're looking forward to getting constant negativity heaped upon it to reap the benefits of the other universally well loved game that literally just came out and is structurally completely different.

I, as someone who's unable to enjoy the 2D Sonics because of the kind of Sonic fan I am, do recognize just how alienating that can be. I'm probably in a worse position since despite not disagreeing with the major issues people have against Forces, they're the least of the things my brain is wired to worry about. The things I'm liking the most (the focus on story, the characters doing things again, one of those characters being playable again with new levels for free unlike something like Smash Bros. Wii U...) are in danger of going away the very next game when Sonic Team does what it always does whenever a game gets an overwhelming negative reaction from people and chucks EVERYTHING in the garbage and starts over because if I'm being thrown a bone that means the other side isn't. They can't just make it so that everyone is happy.

I bring all this up because I'm probably in a more extreme position then someone whose just looking forward to Forces despite recognizing all the underwhelming stuff in its previews. I'm primarily, firmly unable to wean myself into enjoying a certain kind of Sonic game. That's the real reason it being like Colors worries me.Colors was slow, blocky, and mostly 2D. That bored me. I can't speak in technicalities. It just doesn't feel that good in my skinny dank hands.

However, despite all this, I'm still a Sonic fan. It's my favorite thing ever. My inspiration through college. One of the only things that made me happy as a child when I played SA2 and Heroes. As such I wish to converse about it and what I liked in it without much repercussion either. That's sometimes impossible though, as I'm sure something I've just said massively goes against what they feel a Sonic game should be concerned with.

It's not anyone here's fault that this is happening. They don't really have a reason to not do all the stuff they're doing with this story while not working as best they can to make the level design better. Maybe some of the reactions are hyperbolic and maybe some aren't but at the end of the day, I can't feel too personally driven to challenge the backlash when I don't inherently see the fan base as the ones who've created the divisive reactions I'm seeing anymore. I can't. 

It's always best to try a bit harder to keep in mind that we're really not each other's enemy and not go ballastic with the strawmans and the passive agressiveness. Or at least we shouldn't be. I'm so different from everyone else that I find it harder to see how I can vent in harmony with everyone. But it may end up being more rewarding coaxing people into a fight.

And I'm not above getting into the occasional altercation with someone. It may even happen after I post this should someone read it and take personal offense. However, the common goal will never change. If there's a way to bring us back to harmony I'm on the look out for it. 

Because sadly the real problem is stemming from something we can't have a proper conversation with.

 

 

[___-_]

This is a complete mismatch. It's not really the same if you know what you're doing @Meta77. I'm assuming that most of the people at the TGS competition never even played Forces before, yet they're still beating it within 1:30 minutes and lower (and that's with them messing up, purposefully slowing down to get points, yet they're still getting A - S Ranks, mind you). And this seems to be the theme here for the rest of the game.

I've seen non boosting Cube equipped casual play on time wasting levels like the GHZ Avatar and Tag Team stage that got A - S ranks clocking in 2:30.

Meanwhile, in SA2, not only is City Escape a longer stage in general, you don't get an instant max speed button like Forces, nor do you have all the power ups to even get times like sub 2 mins casually. Getting sub 2  even with power ups in general is Speedrunning territory and is no joke to get.

[The Deleter]

Regardless of whether people bring up Mania often or not, that campaign gave 3-5 hours of pure, unadulterated gameplay for it's first playthrough, in the first place.

Bringing up replayablity is somewhat subjective, and superfluous content is still content that people can extend the length of the game with until they're satisfied, sure, but in terms of base game, when we're talking an estimated hour or two at best for Forces here... it's kinda a necissary comparison, whether you like it or not.

This is supposed to be the bigger budget game here. If it does end up being half as short as the indie-tier production, what excuse do they have???

[Sean]

A disclaimer I have to make before things potentially get out of hand when I wake up tomorrow morning: I wasn't attempting to stir shit by using Forces as a platform to praise Mania.

It's not that I don't find the newest games replayable - my Steam profile claims I sunk in 80 hours in Generations, for one, and I'm sure I have way more actual hours than that due to also playing it offline and on the PS3 - but rather when I get right down to it, I find the replayability of the modern games to be vastly different, and not as personally gratifying, as the games with the classic formula and level layouts. Usually I replay levels in Unleashed and Generations for better times or to hunt for red rings or medals or whatever, but for Mania I found a lot of pleasure in hunting for special ring locations, extra lives, alternate paths, and playing as characters in the same levels but in different ways. Meanwhile, as fun as the Unleashed formula is, the only reason I'd play a level over and over is to get better at it, not to explore. I also rarely, if ever, replay the mission mode in Sonic games, even in Generations which I thought had better missions than games like Rush Adventure or Lost World. If I like the game enough, it does get a lot of playtime from me all the same, but I look back and realize I'm only replaying portions of games like Unleashed or Generations (just the main acts, never the entire story or side missions themselves). Like when I replay Generations it's only the modern and classic levels and their bosses, I don't bother with the missions.

I brought up Mania in the first place because games like it and the Genesis titles have ways of pulling me in and making me come back for more that don't involve things like missions or ranks, and because of the alternate ways of playing them. I mean take CD for example, a game I have some mixed feelings about. There are two ways to get the good ending: get all the time stones or destroy all the generators. I think that's neat as shit and makes me want to actually do the game again. I think games like Generations, Colors, and Forces being a few hours long is more problematic than the classic games being that same length, especially since they tend to pad out their campaigns with side stuff that I don't ever go back to after finishing them.

[Eternal EX]

6 hours ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

Excluding the opening tutorial stage, can you name an Unleashed main stage that was super short compared to Forces? I can't. Yes you can speedrun Windmill Isle Act 2 but if you're a first timer, you won't able to finish it within 3 minutes especially with an underpowered Sonic (don't get me wrong, you can still finish the level under 2/3 mins with an underpowered Sonic, but you NEED to know what you're doing which is why first timers can't accomplish this).

We've GOT to stop comparing Unleashed HD with Forces, right now Unleashed is on a whole different level that Forces can't reach.

 

EDIT: JJ is only a 4 minute stage if are speedrunning and know all its traps/exploits beforehand. Otherwise, it's a 7-10 minute stage. 

MAZURI day act 1, Windmill isle act 2. (a 5 year old beat it under 3 mins his first run. I witnessed it.) Shamar act 1. I know I beat it under 3 mins my first run.

[blueblur98]

16 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

 And maybe throw in Unleashed's collection element?

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO

[SonicWind]

9 hours ago, A Hyper KING heavy engine said:

Is there gonna be a translation yet?

Well, there is this rough translation I found in a discussion about this video on the Sonic subreddit. Here's hoping this helps.

[Dee Dude]

"Also something about appealing to people who want their female character to fall in love with Sonic,"

*sniff*

Ahhh, nothing like a fresh can of worms opened on a fine fishing day.

[CleverSonicUsername]

10 hours ago, Meta77 said:

 

Yes many here like to remind you how amazing mania is anytime they can in a forces thread

 

It's hard not to draw comparisons between two games in the same franchise that are releasing months apart. The fact that they represent two wildly different takes on what Sonic is just makes it that much more difficult to ignore.