New Sonic Forces Zone revealed: Casino Forest

[Sonikko]

5 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Ace Joranvexeon said:

Should clarify. I wasn't talking about the game with that. I was spouting hope that we could possibly just have a cordial back-and-forth.

A horribly jaundiced response like that shows I was wrong. What the hell man? Is it impossible to just have a conversation or debate of this game without stooping to that??

You said there were absolutely no physics. And that opinionated statement was proven contradictory. That isn't white knighting. I even provided evidence with the video too. Throw shade at the game all you want, but not your peers for pointing stuff out like that.

And again, your incorrect assumptions of me, lead you down a needless path of trying to paint me as some blind defender of this game when I don't even have a stance on either of the two extremes.

There are plenty of people here who have been able to express their criticisms negative or positive without being so disrespectful to others.

Let's actually debate the game itself.

Man I'm sorry if it came off wrong, I guess I didn't understand your post the way you meant it to be.

Going back at it, even in the video you posted yourself, you can see that while Sonic gains a small amount of speed while rolling downhill, he drops like a rock/stays sticked to the wall right after. That shows that there is definitely so much wrong with the physics in this game.

And my point that while running Sonic doesn't react to physics at all still stands.

Again, I apologize, but there is a lot of blind white knighting going on around here, and in other places, I got kind of worked up lol.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

Again, they aren't moving at the same speed after hitting the booster because the guy rolled as he hit the booster, which would increase his top speed. It isn't binary. 

...isn't that still binary, though? Either you're running when you hit the booster and you're launched at speed A, or you're rolling and you're launched at speed B.

[Badnik Mechanic]

7 minutes ago, Yeow said:

That ramp where Sonic flies off into the large swath of rings is a scripted ramp, you can see Sonic's movement when he exits being clearly predetermined, rather than being influenced by the ramps design or the player's input. Generations actually had scripted ramps too, but they were less obvious in their use and implementation.

This is what happens in Sunset Heights too. It's utterly absurd that the game does this and so blatantly.

[Osmium]

1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

 

Physics everybody :V

Do you mean lack of physics? Why would Sonic stick to a completely vertical slope after a degree of that nature? There is no rightward force that would guarantee Sonic sticking to a surface like that at all. It's a laughable removal of any sort of half projectile motion that would ensue in a real classic Sonic game. 

[Milo]

Just now, Mayor D said:

This is what happens in Sunset Heights too. It's utterly absurd that the game does this and so blatantly.

It's also in the Forces Classic Green Hill level as well. See 0:43.

 

[Kellan]

After reviewing the two gameplay videos, I noticed that Sonic doesn’t fall straight down on that one drop if he’s not in a ball. He keeps on running and falls naturally. I wonder if being in a ball makes Sonic stick to the slopes more, similarly to the Spike Wisp. That could be a new mechanic.

[Brad]

why does this game have so much 2D yet it all looks so mediocre at best...

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Kellan said:

After reviewing the two gameplay videos, I noticed that Sonic doesn’t fall straight down on that one drop if he’s not in a ball. He keeps on running and falls naturally. I wonder if being in a ball makes Sonic stick to the slopes more, similarly to the Spike Wisp. That could be a new mechanic.

It's not, but even if it was, it seems like bad design to have a hill encouraging the player to roll down it and reward them for doing so by dumping them unceremoniously in a corner.

[Kellan]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's not, but even if it was, it seems like bad design to have a hill encouraging the player to roll down it and reward them for doing so by dumping them unceremoniously in a corner.

Couldn’t that be the trade-off though? Like if you run, you’re more open to getting hit by enemies, but you have more movement options. If you roll, you go straight through most enemies without any hassle, but it’s more likely to keep you on the path. I don’t know, I’m just trying to make sense of what I’m seeing.

[Dr. Detective]

I wish the level design was bothering me more. It sucks recognizing everyone is right about their grievances with it but also wondering why I don't care enough to be bothered. 

Seriously, I watched the video and knew people were gonna have problems with it but I literally had to wade through the thread to figure out what those issues were. 

Is this apathy? What do you call it when you see the points people are making and don't disagree with them and want everything they're saying would make it better to be there... but also you don't really care enough to be mad and are expecting to enjoy it alright and not find all the shit you guys are finding. 

I don't seem to know what my stance on gameplay is.

It just looks like a Classic Sonic level to me.

I don't feel too strongly about it one way or the other. The fuck is wrong with me?

[Blue Blood]

I agree with the notion that these debates about Forces being good or bad (be it the entire game or just various aspects) is a real testament to the fact that something isn't right. Forces is making some mistakes that are really bothering people. Things that shouldn't actually be points of contention, like the physics and "lazy" level design, will only get noticed at large when they are a problem. Forces has got some serious issues.

[The Deleter]

24 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

Yeah, sorry. My initial post was a bit wrong. I should have watched the IGN video before hand. I've corrected it now. He rolls either right as he hits the booster or right after. I can't really tell, but it is definitely as he is moving downhill. That is why I think it is a speed cap situation.

Again, they aren't moving at the same speed after hitting the booster because the guy rolled as he hit the booster, which would increase his top speed. It isn't binary. 

Spoiler

It's afterwards.

And is that single inch of hill he does roll down really enough to change his speed from getting launched somewhat high into the air, to catapulting across the sky into the ring collections?

C'mon now.

20 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Those of you who are having secret PM conversations about this game, what do you think about this?

Why would people discussing the game in a private PM mean they're in "secret"? Why does this matter to you?

[Balding Spider]

39 minutes ago, Spooky Mulder said:

I just want to talk a little bit about my issues with the way the “Casino Forest” theme is implemented. I don’t think it’s a bad concept, but it’s being used in such a bland way that doesn’t do anything new with the Casino theme and fails to incorporate the Forest elements.

I’m not sure if anyone here is familiar with the Native American casinos in the US, but they provide a great example of what you can do with the idea of a “Casino Forest.” I really wish we were getting something more along those lines where the two elements are being used in an original and harmonious way.

Pics below...wouldn’t be a bad concept for the next Mania game

  Reveal hidden contents

Yeah that's the (no pun intended) running theme of Forces.

As for the rest of your post your nailed it. There's plenty of ways they could've shaped this theme but that would take time and dedication that the development staff just aren't willing to make. I mean they could've shown Eggman coloring over the ruins with a gaudy mix of gold and purple and having to put the rest of it on hold because he was dealing with resistance forces. They could've put in a set of surreal light shows playing in the back ground. Hell even have Eggmans forces start destroying parts of the ruins and put in an overly priced hotel. It's not difficult.

Urgh, I need a drink

[Kellan]

1 minute ago, Blue Blood said:

Things that shouldn't actually be points of contention, like the physics and "lazy" level design, will only get noticed at large when they are a problem.

Wait, so the very fact that complaints exist make the complaints correct? That doesn’t seem right. I know that great many people absolutely hate the physics of the classic games, so, by this logic, that must mean that classic physics are the problem.

[The Deleter]

25 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

Do you mean lack of physics? Why would Sonic stick to a completely vertical slope after a degree of that nature? There is no rightward force that would guarantee Sonic sticking to a surface like that at all. It's a laughable removal of any sort of half projectile motion that would ensue in a real classic Sonic game. 

Well I mean, they're not natural physics, but they are still physics nonetheless.

I don't disagree, but the way we say "this has no physics" is kinda false considering, y'know, every game has it's own physics, Sonic-4-esque or not; they're just wrong different.

20 minutes ago, Kellan said:

After reviewing the two gameplay videos, I noticed that Sonic doesn’t fall straight down on that one drop if he’s not in a ball. He keeps on running and falls naturally. I wonder if being in a ball makes Sonic stick to the slopes more, similarly to the Spike Wisp. That could be a new mechanic.

"It's not a flaw, it's a feature!"

;V

[Celestia]

33 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Those of you who are having secret PM conversations about this game, what do you think about this?

??? What's the point of this, exactly? If anything this kind of attitude is why people would prefer to stay out of topics.

[Diogenes]

Just now, Kellan said:

Couldn’t that be the trade-off though? Like if you run, you’re more open to getting hit by enemies, but you have more movement options. If you roll, you go straight through most enemies without any hassle, but it’s more likely to keep you on the path. I don’t know, I’m just trying to make sense of what I’m seeing.

There's already a tradeoff in choosing to roll, it's not being able to manually accelerate. They don't need to add unpredictably sticking to surfaces as a potential punishment.

As far as this specific piece of level design goes, there's no enemies on or anywhere near that slope, so that's not a factor. And in any decent Sonic game, rolling down that slope would objectively be the correct choice; it's the perfect place to gain a little extra speed. So then, what is the point of throwing you to the ground like that, aside from just being a dick to the player for doing what would normally be the right thing?

More often than not, the way to make sense of modern Sonic games is to remember that Sonic Team just kinda sucks.

[Blue Blood]

1 minute ago, Kellan said:

Wait, so the very fact that complaints exist make the complaints correct? That doesn’t seem right. I know that great many people absolutely hate the physics of the classic games, so, by this logic, that must mean that classic physics are the problem.

No. The fact that the complaints about this as-yet unreleased game keep mounting with little being done to alleviate them and that people's concerns keep getting realised should tell you that there is some validity to them. 

If you look at this and say "I like it. I don't have any problems with what I'm seeing." then find, whatever. You can say that. All I'm saying is that when this many people aren't happy and there's a clear divide from people who have all had the same experience with Forces (hardly anyone here has played it yet), there are issues that could likely be improved upon without negatively impacting many people's thoughts.

[Wraith]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I wish the level design was bothering me more. It sucks recognizing everyone is right about their grievances with it but also wondering why I don't care enough to be bothered. 

Seriously, I watched the video and knew people were gonna have problems with it but I literally had to wade through the thread to figure out what those issues were. 

Is this apathy? What do you call it when you see the points people are making and don't disagree with them and want everything they're saying would make it better to be there... but also you don't really care enough to be mad and are expecting to enjoy it alright and not find all the shit you guys are finding. 

I don't seem to know what my stance on gameplay is.

It just looks like a Classic Sonic level to me.

I don't feel too strongly about it one way or the other. The fuck is wrong with me?

Nothing.  You're fine. Your priorities are just elsewhere. That's fine.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

5 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Man I'm sorry if it came off wrong, I guess I didn't understand your post the way you meant it to be.

Going back at it, even in the video you posted yourself, you can see that while Sonic gains a small amount of speed while rolling downhill, he drops like a rock/stays sticked to the wall right after. That shows that there is definitely so much wrong with the physics in this game.

And my point that while running Sonic doesn't react to physics at all still stands.

Again, I apologize, but there is a lot of blind white knighting going on around here, and in other places, I got kind of worked up lol.

Alright then. Admittedly, I could've worded it better.

While 'm looking forward to the game, I will concede that yes, the game could've coded its physics better from what is seen.

Apology accepted.

[Badnik Mechanic]

10 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

All I'm saying is that when this many people aren't happy and there's a clear divide from people who have all had the same experience with Forces (hardly anyone here has played it yet), there are issues that could likely be improved upon without negatively impacting many people's thoughts.

It's not just that.

We have also a huge number of people now going 'this isn't right, this is bad, look at this'.

Then posting screens of offending items and providing reasons and clear explanations of what's wrong. It's not just "wow that's shit!" Which is what a lot of people tend to do when they don't like something. It's the constant posting of evidence to back this up which is a new phenomenon.

As of yet, I've not seen anyone try to argue why they're wrong or give a convincing argument as to why these flaws that have been spotted are not flaws or if people just being too picky.

Today's footage for instance, we have gifs showing where the physics are totally borked, we have clear signs of scripting and automated segments, we've got speed boosters which do utterly nothing other than be a hand held for players to go in the right direction.

Huge segments of the zone where nothing is going on, no enemies, no traps, just nothing of interest.

And people are calling it out on mass. 

This hasn't happened before, even Rise of Lyric wasn't this bad up until that retail copy leaked. A few people were calling it out during dev time (I was one of them so was you), but not to this level.

Even if you can't articulate exactly why you think X is a problem, you can't deny that something must be up for it to be this high in terms of complaints.

[Shiguy]

17 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

 

 

"It's not a flaw, it's a feature!"

;V

I wasn't aware that Sonic Team was the Bethesda of game Devs.

Inb4 PC modders make a "slighty" better base game.

[Blue Blood]

28 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

As of yet, I've not seen anyone try to argue why they're wrong or give a convincing argument as to why these flaws that have been spotted are not flaws or if people just being too picky.

A lot of people have different standards. You and I might look at invisible springs appearing at the end of scripted tunnels and think that's the worst thing since Sonic 4's uncurling debacle, but other people just won't notice it. Or maybe they do notice, but it doesn't negatively impact theif enjoyment. But what you're saying is absolutely right - nobody is actually giving any kind of explanation as to why these things aren't flaws or why they might be better this way. Who would be complaining if the problems that we're all citing were fixed? If the game didn't have automation and scripting because everything worked organically, what would there be to complain about? Virtually nobody and almost nothing. 

[Celestia]

3 minutes ago, Shiguy said:

I wasn't aware that Sonic Team was the Bethesda of game Devs.

Inb4 PC modders make a "slighty" better base game.

Not sure if it was intentional but I'm laughing at the redundancy of "the Bethesda of game devs."

RE: the invisible spring (and most likely dash pads, at points where the same sound effect plays even if you can't see them) thing: yeah, it's really freaking weird. It's like they heard "people don't like dash pads" with no context and decided to go into the editor to make some invisible.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I mean, I don't think anyone's claiming that they want the game to be this way. I've seen a lot of people either not caring or rationalizing why it's not that bad, but nobody here's saying it couldn't be better. I personally just don't give enough of a shit to get angry about physics as long as they don't screw me over when I'm trying to get Sonic to do what I want.

The fact that this level is so much more complex than GHZ does make me wonder how later modern Sonic and Avatar stages will go.