New Sonic Forces Zone revealed: Casino Forest

[Cayenne]

Maybe it's just me, but am I the only one who thinks that this synthesized music doesn't fit these classic 3D levels? Even as a big Sega Genesis fan, something looks wrong to me. I'd rather have the remixes from Sonic Generations.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, Joseph Henry said:

I always had this feeling that Forces was a step Sonic Team were taking to help tie together past games into an established world of sorts. What with familiar area being noticeably affected by Eggman's tyranny.

Wouldn't be surprised if that's the case with any returning stages.

[LongcrierCat]

What's bothering me is that the level both feels too short and too long at the same time. It's padded out to have more to do but doesn't have much to do still. 

This is what Sonic Mania illustrated just only a month ago. It's not how long the level is, it's what the level says. You get the level by its use of art direction, its music, its gimmicks and its level design and most importantly: its flow. Classic Sonic wasn't always a skate park of level slopes but what it overall did do was have a flow to its proceedings that connected the game naturally. Now that's a good solid thing to have is flow but there's one more thing that made Sonic work for a long time in even the early 3D outings. 

This is the evolution of the game's ideas over the course of the game. You build up to the finale naturally via environmental story telling. But here I'm not sure what the storytelling is telling me outside of what's going on in the background scenery. Usually you want this environmental storytelling to mix with the game via a level gimmick. Say if we went with the Native American Casino theme being a work in progress. We could have unstable glass platforms that temporarily make a one use ramp or loop de loop to use like the sand loops in Mirage Saloon Act 2 in Sonic Mania. You could have a construction crew of robots there that act as enemies and provide extra storytelling. You could have the forest be an actual attraction of the level design in its brittle branches being platform challenges or vines helping fling you upwards or causing you to get tangled up in inopportune moments. It's subtle things like this that make a level stand out. 

So at the end of the day, what is going on in the level? There's Casino Night tropes mixed with a Silent Forest type of level. But is it a good mix of ideas? What's the story of the level? Can you tell that the Doctor has decided that he wanted to build a Casino over these ruins or does it look like a Casino got blown into the level or that a forest is growing over it? See this is where ideas like the level being a casino in construction would help significantly in trying to sell the stage as a unique story that would be memorable to the player and have them want to revisit it. This is why of all the Genesis games, Sonic 3 and Knuckles was the one that resonated most with people. It had purpose to what it was doing ingame. Same goes for Sonic Mania. Sonic Adventure even connects this all via cutscenes and a hub world though how effective that is is up for debate. It was good at making it felt like each level had a story though. Some of them are really simple. Some of them have complexities to them. But what matters is that the level design and flow of the level combined with the theming helped tell a story. 

This goes back to Sonic 1. You start off in an Art Deco representation of a natural environment and it slowly gets more artisan to straight being mechanical in its final acts. It's an evolution of ideas that sells that Sonic is traveling through even some art to finally approach someone without a sense of art save for the mechanical. The sloping is no longer full of irregular imperfections by the time you get to Scrap Brain. It's stiff and formulaic in design. You could see this start in Starlight Zone but here it's ever more prevalent. 

In Sonic Adventure, the themes may not be as straightforward as that but the story moves with them to even have Eggman's ship flying over Red Mountain to indicate that we're going to go confront him soon which is what happens when Sky Chase leads to landing on the ship and carrying into Sky Deck. It's an evolution of ideas.

We don't have the full game yet, but the stage's storytelling tells me something worrying and that this game might not be sure what its ideas are. And that has me confused and a little worried about the overall quality of the kind of experience we're in for as a game and a story in spite of being invested in the idea of the story but the idea is not the execution. 

I'm still wanting to get into the game but this level showed me that they are both unsure and possibly not confident in the ideas they have to show. 

That's a worrying sign of this being more product by committee than product by artistry. 

As an artist who was helped inspired by this franchise, this bugs me. It bugs me a lot. 

I'm still wanting to see the game in whole, but I'm not confident in its overall presentation and this level helped solidify that fear. It's best to show more, Sega. I need more evidence to convince me my fears are unfounded. Give us another story trailer even. Something substantial. 

[Sean]

I don't like how the level design and gimmicks are basically just a modified Casino Night from Sonic 2, but aesthetically I think it's neat. The garnish neon lighting makes for a nice change of pace from the usually pleasant-looking attractive colors of casino stages of past games - this casino makes me think I'd want to actually stay away from it due to how seedy and tacky it looks, haha

[Zaysho]

1 hour ago, Joseph Henry said:

Eggman probably would defile a Gaia Temple out of spite, honestly.

[Dejimon11]

1 hour ago, Jovahexeon Ace Joranvexeon said:

I always had this feeling that Forces was a step Sonic Team were taking to help tie together past games into an established world of sorts. What with familiar area being noticeably affected by Eggman's tyranny.

Wouldn't be surprised if that's the case with any returning stages.

Isn't this meant to take place in Sonic's world tho instead of the "human world" considering the animal NPCs?  God I hate this concept so much.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Sonic is badly written and full of plot holes, and the developers obviously don't care about creating consistency between games or even their own rules.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Dejimon11 said:

Isn't this meant to take place in Sonic's world tho instead of the "human world" considering the animal NPCs?  God I hate this concept so much.

I love the idea of separating Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic's continuity.

I hate the idea of saying that there's a "human world" and a "animal NPC" world. There's literally no reason for it. Just have both species exist in the same world. Eggman's a human. His Grandfather's a human. His granddaughter was a human. Shadow and Rouge are apparently still G.U.N agents in Forces. We know that their Commander is a human. 

Even when they do something that I feel is less confusing they've gotta double down by saying something that overcomplicates shit for no reason. 

It's a world of weird looking animal people and weird looking human people.

Dude's shaped like eggs and animals with rainbow colors and weird powers. 

Welcome to Sonic's world. It's fffffffucking weird and that's okay!

[StaticMania]

31 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

Isn't this meant to take place in Sonic's world tho instead of the "human world" considering the animal NPCs?  God I hate this concept so much.

I feel this concept wouldn't be disliked as much if it was actually established earlier on.

[Fletch]

I really can't stop watching the gameplay footage. It just looks like a very fun level to play despite whatever usual Classic Sonic Forces problems it has. Also, just the look of the casino and the neon colors with the water from the forest flowing on down is all beautiful to me.

I'm really digging that Classic Sonic is with Modern Tails for awhile as they both search for Modern Sonic. What exactly even happened to Tails to make him get separated from his own Sonic?Wondering if after Sonic is beaten by Infinite, does Tails just kinda get discouraged and disappears for a bit only to find Classic Sonic who brings him some sort of hope that things will be okay, thus he searches for Modern while also learning something about the Phantom Ruby? I'm sure Classic and Tails duo adventure won't be deep, but it's something I'm honestly interesting in. Would certainly be nice to see them bond a bit showing that no matter what version of Sonic and Tails it is, they both will always be bros. Also, nice touch having Modern Tails do the commentating while Classic Sonic will be mute again. Could have been like this in Generations since Classic Tails was pretty useless all things considered.

 

And random thought about the level here. I can't get over how into the level I am when it's probably the most generic fusion to ever happen in the franchise. What exactly is it? A casino within a forest. What do you call it? Casino Forest. Bruh. lol (Eggman literally must have just went "This place is boring, how about I liven it up some?" just for the heck of it because everyone loves casinos. lol)

[Diogenes]

42 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I feel this concept wouldn't be disliked as much if it was actually established earlier on.

I dunno, I don't think there was ever a point where that would actually be beneficial. We've had animals and a human in this series from day one, it shouldn't break anyone's brain for them to just naturally coexist. Bringing a whole other world into the mix is just adding unnecessary complications.

[Dr. Mechano]

And don't forget that Eggman wasn't the only human in the classic games. Witchcart was a thing too.

Humans have always been around.

[Dejimon11]

19 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I dunno, I don't think there was ever a point where that would actually be beneficial. We've had animals and a human in this series from day one, it shouldn't break anyone's brain for them to just naturally coexist. Bringing a whole other world into the mix is just adding unnecessary complications.

It's pretty much their justification as to why Sonic is in a semi-realistic world in one game and then an overly cartoony world in the next. Still dumb either way.

[StaticMania]

Yeah, my thought was purely for the aesthetic explanation...not the population explanation. It could've been a decent one that probably still wouldn't have added much unless acknowledged.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

Honestly, just ignore the two worlds stuff. What makes it canon? The fact that Iizuka said it? The same guy that said that only male hedgehogs could turn Super? The same guy who said that the Super Emeralds were non canon? The same guy who has made statements that have contradicted not only his only previous statements, but the games themselves?

Yeah, I don't see Iizuka as the arbiter of canon and neither should you.

[Diogenes]

Unfortunately us dismissing what they decide is canon doesn't stop them from making games that follow their canon.

[LongcrierCat]

Well, if we want to make sure we have the canon that we want that doesn't get muddied up in whatever they say then I guess we'll have to make our Sonic... with Blackjack and hookers! 

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Unfortunately us dismissing what they decide is canon doesn't stop them from making games that follow their canon.

Yeah, that's obvious. We can't change what Sega decides in the end. However, just look at the games. There is no evidence to suggest that there are two worlds. So far, it's something only talked about by Iizuka. And as Mania has shown, Iizuka's word is not law. Mania clearly contradicts Iizuka's previous statements. Forces, like Mania, has Iizuka only in a supervisory role. He has no actual control over the development of this game. So I very much doubt that this Forces will confirm the two worlds thing. Until it is confirmed in the games, we can safely ignore it.

[Flame Lance]

Finally a new stage! The stage looks very pretty, but it's a tad disappointing to see no badniks and just reused gimmicks. The level design is an improvement from other stuff we've seen though and it looks like decent fun. The music has a Sonic 4 vibe unfortunately, but it sounds alright. I like that each of the Forces stages we have seen thus far have shown signs of Eggman's negative impact. Robots destroying the city, a desertified Green Hill, and now a forest with a casino built into it. 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

I'm a bit excited about this level, looks like it actually involves momentum and has alternate pathways and stuff. Looks like there's potential for a fun time here!

At the same time, I have to acknowledge it's not actually very impressive and there are many blatant things to complain about, such as relying on reused gimmicks and still being rather simplistic overall. But hey, baby steps I guess? I mean, I guess at this point I'm just really happy to get anything that looks like a decent fun time for me, even if it's nothing to write home about. My expectations were REALLY lowered by the Classic Forces Green Hill footage, so in comparison anything "decent" or "kinda good" looks great. Which is kind of sad, but ah well, guess I'll take what I can get. xP

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Unfortunately us dismissing what they decide is canon doesn't stop them from making games that follow their canon.

At best, we can hope that whoever replaces Iizuka (hey, knock on wood) undoes all of his pointless retcons and makes all of the things he decanonized canon again.

I mean, hey, Mania brought back Super Tails and Super Knuckles despite Iizuka claiming those aren't a thing anymore. So perhaps he won't always have absolute control of the series.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

At best, we can hope that whoever replaces Iizuka (hey, knock on wood) undoes all of his pointless retcons and makes all of the things he decanonized canon again.

I know the perfect man for the job.

[Razule]

3 hours ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

Honestly, just ignore the two worlds stuff. What makes it canon? The fact that Iizuka said it? The same guy that said that only male hedgehogs could turn Super? The same guy who said that the Super Emeralds were non canon? The same guy who has made statements that have contradicted not only his only previous statements, but the games themselves?

Yeah, I don't see Iizuka as the arbiter of canon and neither should you.

Except.. classic games now take place in a separate universe. The Super Emeralds still don't exist in Modern Sonic games, nor will Tails and Knuckles ever turn Super. Ultimately he's the one who calls the shots for now, and we don't have to recognize it in our own personal views, but what's official is official.

[Zaysho]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I mean, hey, Mania brought back Super Tails and Super Knuckles despite Iizuka claiming those aren't a thing anymore. So perhaps he won't always have absolute control of the series.

I see them more as bonuses rather than an attempt at canonizing them or anything like that, so it doesn't feel contradictory (I would liken it to the barrier/power up they got in Heroes almost).

Personally, I'd have been pissed if I collected the Emeralds with them and I didn't get Super forms, canon or not.

[Sean]

If Heroes is still canon to the modern timeline then Super Tails and Knuckles are still a thing, just different from how they look and operate in the classic games