New Sonic Forces Zone revealed: Casino Forest

[superman43]

58 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Yeah, it's a waste they don't put a bit more elbow grease into these levels and it does make the game a bit flat. But it's not so much a deal breaker for me.|I'm more a full experience kind of guy rather then perfection of gameplay. If I cared for incredible gameplay I wouldn't be interested in 95% of Sonic's history to begin with, probably.

I'm starting to think that the design philosphy of Forces is the antithesis of Generations.
Generations' levels were fully designed for arcade style replay value, replaying the same levels over and over to get all the red coins and better scores, hence the multiple paths, open area's and increased interactivity of set pieces. But then as most audiences rejected the importance of replayability and bashed the game into the ground for being too short anyway, Sonic Team went with the opposite route and make levels super linair, automated, red coins more obvious....
 

1) it´s pretty much race from the beginning to end. No enemies, no small adventure before the ending of the level (as Generations, and yes even S4E1 and S4E2 had some).

2) if all the stages are like that, they would get panned for making a game not worth its money, bringing Sonic effectively to a new bottom. I may go as far as saying that in future the value Forces would drastically fall, possibly even below the Mania´s price at that time. 
If you look into 3D Sonic games... very few were released for PC and if they were, they basically went along declining curve... Heroes, 06, Generations, Forces... (with only Heroes and 06 having full 3D experience)

[Roger_van_der_weide]

40 minutes ago, superman43 said:

1) it´s pretty much race from the beginning to end. No enemies, no small adventure before the ending of the level (as Generations, and yes even S4E1 and S4E2 had some).

Well, there's the part where the robot crab chases the OC character in Green Hill, so Sonic Forces does seems to add elements like that in some levels.
Altough they are less interactive then before, that sucks, but still. It's there.
 

40 minutes ago, superman43 said:

I may go as far as saying that in future the value Forces would drastically fall, possibly even below the Mania´s price at that time.

Well, I never said it's a good decision, I'm just trying to figure out what Sonic Team's doing. We'll find out what the consequences will be soon enough.
 

40 minutes ago, superman43 said:

If you look into 3D Sonic games... very few were released for PC and if they were, they basically went along declining curve... Heroes, 06, Generations, Forces... (with only Heroes and 06 having full 3D experience)

I have no idea what you're talking about here? Also, Sonic R, Sega all stars racing 1&2 and Sonic Adventure DX had a Pc release and are full 3d experiences.
I don't think PC's are too blame for the 2d sections..
If that's your point is? I have no idea.

[Wraith]

3 hours ago, Diamond Dragon X said:

People like to complain about Forces' level design and conpare it with Mania, but Mania also had it's bad levels.

 

Titanic Monarch (both acts) is a mess and Lava Reef Act 1 is very linear.

Can you explain what's messy about Titanic Monarch? Aside from a few weirdly placed crushers I thought both acts were really good,, just a bit long.

[Badnik Mechanic]

9 minutes ago, Josh said:

Can you explain what's messy about Titanic Monarch? Aside from a few weirdly placed crushers I thought both acts were really good,, just a bit long.

Only issue I have with that stage would be mouth/crushes, the hitbox seems a bit off. 

The acts are long but after you beat that 2nd act you can really fly through it once you know the route and what you're doing with those warp things.

[Diogenes]

5 hours ago, Diamond Dragon X said:

People like to complain about Forces' level design and conpare it with Mania, but Mania also had it's bad levels.

Titanic Monarch (both acts) is a mess and Lava Reef Act 1 is very linear.

Mania's worst levels are still miles better than anything Sonic Team's produced in ages, though.

I'm not sure what your problem with TMZ is, though (it plays fine for me, if a little more automated than I'd like), and while LRZ 1 isn't the most open of levels it's still got quite a lot going on.

[Indigo Rush]

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Mania's worst levels are still miles better than anything Sonic Team's produced in ages, though.

I'm not sure what your problem with TMZ is, though (it plays fine for me, if a little more automated than I'd like), and while LRZ 1 isn't the most open of levels it's still got quite a lot going on.

I can't especially fathom how either Zones are bad. To be frank, deflecting criticism against Forces with "well Mania isnt perfect either" is a really pathetic strategy, especially considering the gap in budget and reception.

[DiamondX]

6 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I can't especially fathom how either Zones are bad. To be frank, deflecting criticism against Forces with "well Mania isnt perfect either" is a really pathetic strategy, especially considering the gap in budget and reception.

I'm only comparing it with Mania because everyone brings it up.

TMZ Act 2 looks really complicated and takes a lot of time. And TMZ Act 1 is jist climbing up.

[Straw Hat]

11 minutes ago, Diamond Dragon X said:

I'm only comparing it with Mania because everyone brings it up.

TMZ Act 2 looks really complicated and takes a lot of time. And TMZ Act 1 is jist climbing up.

But those comparisons are done to explain what we expect to see out of Classic gameplay, which Mania provides and Forces doesn't.

Not as a means to say Mania is perfect.

[Soniman]

9 minutes ago, Diamond Dragon X said:

I'm only comparing it with Mania because everyone brings it up.

TMZ Act 2 looks really complicated and takes a lot of time. And TMZ Act 1 is jist climbing up.

This is still irrlevant, because good or bad, Forces levels still kinda suck regardless of Mania's own quality

[The Tenth Doctor]

I'll say that the rotating orb mechanic was a bit bad to me in TMZ. But that's all I have to say about that.

[superman43]

2 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

I have no idea what you're talking about here? Also, Sonic R, Sega all stars racing 1&2 and Sonic Adventure DX had a Pc release and are full 3d experiences.
I don't think PC's are too blame for the 2d sections..
If that's your point is? I have no idea.

Yes, but Sonic R and Sega All-Stars are not the mainstream Sonic games, Sonic R has Classic, not Dreamcast and after characters and Adventure DX and Adventure 2 Battle were released way after the Heroes, making Heroes first experience of 3D Sonic for PC.

About blaming PC for the 2D sections... Could be partially, 3D games like Heroes don´t control well with a keyboard, yes, you might say get Xbox controller, but some people may never want one. 

And what I was thinking of is that any "3D" mainstream Sonic game that got its release for PC alongside the console one showed a declining course in Sonic´s history. Sorry for including Sonic ´06 in there.

Only 3 mainstream Sonic games that made it into PCs alongside consoles are: Heroes, Generations, Forces.

[Badnik Mechanic]

1 hour ago, Diamond Dragon X said:

TMZ Act 2 looks really complicated and takes a lot of time. And TMZ Act 1 is jist climbing up.

Urm... what's the problem with that? Specifically?

Level design isn't as simplified as 'is it complicated or "which direction do you go in."

Is there only one option to progress? (Nope, multiple pathways, as well as using various power ups to progress through via alternative means.)

Do the enemies present a challenge/require you to make decisions, I.e. do they pursue you? Ranged attacks? Quick attacks?

Combine that with enemy placement and number of similar enemies in one set frame, so is the player ever over whelmed or is an enemy placed in an unfair position? Is the enemy guarding a doorway/powerful etc.

And that's only a few basic points.

 

 

[Dr. Detective]

I wish the best month of the year wasn't currently the only thing left standing in the way of me seeing Vector the Crocodile bang on about how the number of Death Egg Robots in this city is too damn high.

[voltaic]

2 hours ago, superman43 said:

About blaming PC for the 2D sections... Could be partially, 3D games like Heroes don´t control well with a keyboard, yes, you might say get Xbox controller, but some people may never want one. 

I dunno, I don't see any way for this to be true personally. When I was younger I completed lots of 3D games including adventure and heroes on a keyboard. It's not ideal, and I know better now to use a gamepad, but at the time I didn't have an issue with difficulty, and I've read of many others who were\are the same.

More so, PC contributed to only one out of four (in the case of heroes) review scores, while Generations sits at the same 77 on metacritic as the X360 version. Not to mention Sonic Teams focus is likely on the consoles, with PC being so unpopular in Japan. I highly doubt one possible control scheme on one platform is responsible for changing how modern sonic games are made today.

[Patron]

4 hours ago, superman43 said:

Yes, but Sonic R and Sega All-Stars are not the mainstream Sonic games, Sonic R has Classic, not Dreamcast and after characters and Adventure DX and Adventure 2 Battle were released way after the Heroes, making Heroes first experience of 3D Sonic for PC. [...]

Sonic Adventure DX: Director's Cut was released the latest 2004-09-14 (USA) and Heroes the earliest 2004-11-17 (USA). You might be thinking about the Dreamcast Collection (2011-03-04), which is said to be the PC version ported to the Xbox, then back again.

[shdowhunt60]

I mean, FFS, I remember back in the day when entire publications were dedicated to just joysticks back in the 90's, Windows has had built in support for controllers since basically forever, and Xinput has been an industry standard for years.

This whole line of reasoning doesn't hold up to the slightest bit of scrutiny. 2D sections in 3D Sonic were formerly introduced in Sonic Unleashed, which STILL hasn't come to PC despite countless petitions. Sonic Team's decision to put 2D Sections in Modern Sonic has absolutely nothing to do with the PC.

[superman43]

Guys, I said the PC was only one possibility. Not something to put the blame on.

I feel that is more for newbies to the series as was the case with Heroes and Team Rose. But let´s be honest, how many newcomers does SEGA expect to entertain with Sonic Forces ? To me it seems that Avatar gameplay resembles SA2´s Tails and Heroes´ Knuckles attacks. I´m not fan of any of those two. Classic Sonic being probably not needed overall. And Modern Sonic ? Well, in end we will end up with a game being at par with the others. Tag Team being basically almost identical with Heroes and for many fans only 1/4 of the gameplay really enjoyable (if we don´t count customizing Avatars as something really game-breaking).

[CleverSonicUsername]

I think the music isn't that bad, it definitely sounds better than Green Hill and the boss theme. It has a good beat and the synths aren't really abrasive to me. I also think a casino level overgrown with vegetation and leading into and out of ruins is a really interesting concept.

That said, from what I've seen I don't think they execute on that idea very well. The distinct lack of hazards and enemies and wide open spaces with bunches of rings just make the whole thing seem, frankly, boring. It lacks any real hook. It's just pinball bumpers, slot machines, and spike balls, which... cool, that's nice I guess.

[Sonikko]

Titanic Monarch may not be stellar, and Lava Reef Act 1 may be linear, they're still way, way, way better than anything we have seen of Forces, and will ever see probably.

I would also like to clarify that linear =! bad.

Linear level design can be good, pretty good, if done well. What's bad about Forces isn't that it's "linear". It's that the physics are shit, and a consequence of that is that the level design is so far removed from what Sonic-y level design should be that it doesn't make sense for it to be a Sonic game.

Oh and if you're looking for a 3D game (not a qte cutscene), look somewhere else ;).

[Osmium]

In fairness, Lava Reef was always one of the relatively more linear zones. Don't let the super windy path fool you, the first real divergence doesn't even happen until like halfway through it. After that it does open up a bit but even there it's not really enormous in path changes. 

Still MILES better than anything Forces has shit out anyway though 

[Blue Blood]

2 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

In fairness, Lava Reef was always one of the relatively more linear zones. Don't let the super windy path fool you, the first real divergence doesn't even happen until like halfway through it. After that it does open up a bit but even there it's not really enormous in path changes. 

Still MILES better than anything Forces has shit out anyway though 

Lava Reef is one of the more confined zones in Mania and doesn't feature as many branches as many of the others, but it's certainly not linear. The difference in the design of all the levels in Mania is part of their strength - you've got absolute gauntlets like Flying Battery and more focused affairs like Lava Reef here. Nobody has to like it (I've even seen people say that branching/non-linear levels are one of the problems with Sonic games), but saying that it's linear simply isn't true.

[Osmium]

Just now, Blue Blood said:

Lava Reef is one of the more confined zones in Mania and doesn't feature as many branches as many of the others, but it's certainly not linear. The difference in the design of all the levels in Mania is part of their strength - you've got absolute gauntlets like Flying Battery and more focused affairs like Lava Reef here. Nobody has to like it (I've even seen people say that branching/non-linear levels are one of the problems with Sonic games), but saying that it's linear simply isn't true.

Yeah maybe linear is the wrong word but you know what I'm on about. The first half of the act is one path that winds around itself in a flamboyant manner. Like I said later it opens up and you start getting some cool stuff that more resembles the more open levels of the Sonic 3 half. Some of the S3K zones always had problems with lack of paths (Hydrocity act 2, Ice Cap act 1, and Launch Base act 2 are the largest offenders of this) anyway. 

[CleverSonicUsername]

4 hours ago, Sonikko said:

Titanic Monarch may not be stellar, and Lava Reef Act 1 may be linear,

I thought this until the other day I found a whole lower path I didn't know existed with Knuckles. The thing with Act 1 is you kind of have to try a bit more to go off the path the game wants to keep you on, but there's other ways through it.

[Blue Blood]

ngl, I really like the music for this level. I really, really wish that it wasn't supposed to sound 16-bit because that just doesn't mesh with the modern visuals in the slightest, but the track alone is great. It's been stick in my head for a while. Sue me.

[Sean]

Yeah, the song for this zone is nice compared to the Green Hill and boss music we've heard before. I don't understand why they're going for this type of sound for classic Sonic though; I expected Sega would remember the backlash against Sonic 4's faux-retro-sounding music and stick to a more modern electronic style like Generations' act 1 music had, or even go full Tee Lopes-style a la Mania.