New Sonic Forces Zone revealed: Casino Forest

[Crazy_Diamond]

5 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Why does he plummet straight down when rolling, but glides off normally when running?

Wait that can't be-

Huh, you're right. Why the hell does it do that? I honestly don't know. Shouldn't it behave the same whether he's rolling or not? So when he plummeted straight down, was that a glitch or something?

[Bobnik]

27 minutes ago, Yeow said:

Great object placement, innit (screenshot taken by a guy from Reddit)

That crop was mine lol. (I'm Zasim96 there)

Anyway yeah, physics are wank.

[The Deleter]

17 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

No, you got it wrong. The physics aren't worse in Forces compared to Generations. It's just different. You see, Sonic now has a ground speed cap unless he is jumping or rolling, just like in Sonic 1. You can see this clearly in the IGN footage, where Sonic increases in speed when rolling, and ends up going higher than when running. It's not worse, just different.

 

If by "doesn't behave normally" is just "different" and not "worse", then sure. But they do not behave normally, and this example you brought up is another case of that in action.

If you want to make a case where rolling is the cause of the bottom example launching further than the other, that doesn't make sense, as he only activated the roll when traveling uphill. Otherwise both players have the same speed, and typically running uphill is faster than rolling, even in the classics.

The real reason this happens is most likely due to the fact that the player on the bottom hit a speed booster, thus enabling "natural physics mode" in the first place. But even if it isn't the reason, these physics are inconsistent as all getout, and it's definitely a flaw. You don't want your game to be unpredictable in how it controls, do you? Consistency is key for objectively good controls and physics, especially in a platformer.

[Razule]

3 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

Wait that can't be-

Huh, you're right. Why the hell does it do that? I honestly don't know. Shouldn't it behave the same whether he's rolling or not? So when he plummeted straight down, was that a glitch or something?

It's the best kind of glitch, an intentional decision.

[Gemster312]

11 minutes ago, Gemster312 said:

Sonic seems to like to glue to walls in this game when in ball mode (as shown in the gif many times)

It looks like as sonic is falling, he's against the wall, and as the wall ends, its actually a curved edge (rounded corner)

Thus, as sonic is glued to the wall, and he hits the curved corner, his vertical momentum converts slightly into horizontal momentum to stick along the curve.

Since Sonic isn't glued to ceilings, he de-attaches at 45degress through the curve, and upon hitting the ground uncurls, but still has a good amount of horizontal momentum thanks to that split-momentum rounded wall/ceiling corner.

 

At least that's what it looks like.

Just to add onto this explanation,

Attached are 3 images.

1. -Blue lines indicating directly above sonic (showing that he did in fact have horizontal movement)
2. -Green lines indicating where we expected sonic to be (since it looks like a perfectly vertical drop, but apparentally isnt)
3. -Red lines showing his movement path (notice how for a frame he twitches to the left and then curves back getting launched to the right)

Since he already had such immense speeds AND had even the slightest amount of horizontal momentum, all of that vertical momentum converted to horizontal momentum as if he his a slope.
Weird? Yes. Scripted? No. Just funky physics.

[Psychicmoose103]

First impressions

 

i actually like the concept, a casino in the middle of a forest, but it doesn't seem to be done well. The gimmicks are just casino night, except worse level design and worse music in a game with worse physics. However, despite that, I think it's the best level seen yet. The rings seem oddly placed though, like near the end when there are just giant squares of rings placed around, and why are there no enemies? 

 

I think this level could benefit from having forest gimmicks or Ruin gimmicks mixed in with the casino gimmicks. Logs? Branches and stuff? 

 

Overall - interesting concept, but really just a worse casino night with a forest background woven into it. However, it seems like it will look beautiful in-game (the graphics) and I don't think the music is that bad. Defintally the best forces level so far.

[Crazy_Diamond]

21 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

IIf you want to make a case where rolling is the cause of the bottom example launching further than the other, that doesn't make sense, as he only activated the roll when traveling uphill. Otherwise both players have the same speed, and typically running uphill is faster than rolling, even in the classics.

The real reason this happens is most likely due to the fact that the player on the bottom hit a speed booster, thus enabling "natural physics mode" in the first place. But even if it isn't the reason, these physics are inconsistent as all getout, and it's definitely a flaw. You don't want your game to be unpredictable in how it controls, do you? Consistency is key for objectively good controls and physics, especially in a platformer.

You are forgetting about the speed cap. Remember, in Sonic 1 the speed cap applies unless you are rolling or jumping. In other words, the speed cap is only removed when you are in a ball. Both players in the video hit the speed booster, not just the player at the bottom. But only the player on the bottom went into a ball. By rolling into a ball, he was able to remove the speed cap, which allows him to go farther.

EDIT: I rewatched the IGN video. He doesn't roll while going uphill. He decides to roll either as he hits the the speed booster or slightly after, so while he's still going down. Just wanted to note that.

[Spooky Mulder]

I just want to talk a little bit about my issues with the way the “Casino Forest” theme is implemented. I don’t think it’s a bad concept, but it’s being used in such a bland way that doesn’t do anything new with the Casino theme and fails to incorporate the Forest elements.

I’m not sure if anyone here is familiar with the Native American casinos in the US, but they provide a great example of what you can do with the idea of a “Casino Forest.” I really wish we were getting something more along those lines where the two elements are being used in an original and harmonious way.

Pics below...wouldn’t be a bad concept for the next Mania game

 

[Psychicmoose103]

First impressions

 

i actually like the concept, a casino in the middle of a forest, but it doesn't seem to be done well. The gimmicks are just casino night, except worse level design and worse music in a game with worse physics. However, despite that, I think it's the best level seen yet. The rings seem oddly placed though, like near the end when there are just giant squares of rings placed around, and why are there no enemies? 

 

I think this level could benefit from having forest gimmicks or Ruin gimmicks mixed in with the casino gimmicks. Logs? Branches and stuff? 

 

Overall - interesting concept, but really just a worse casino night with a forest background woven into it. However, it seems like it will look beautiful in-game (the graphics) and I don't think the music is that bad. Defintally the best forces level so far.

[memoryman3]

Even Odyssey seems to have a better sense of flow to it... 

[Clewis]

26 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

You can see this clearly in the IGN footage, where Sonic increases in speed when rolling, and ends up going higher than when running.

I think it's likelier that those segments were just scripted differently rather than there being actual legacy-esque physics at play.

Sonic 4 Episode 2 featured the same thing. There were some areas where you could actually gain speed by rolling downhill compared to just running, like at the very beginning of Sylvania Castle's Act 2. Unfortunately this wasn't because the game was using a vastly improved (or even different) physics engine, but rather that portion of the level design was just scripted to have Sonic behave that way to make it appear that they had improved most of the physics issues that were present in Episode 1.

The Sonic Forces devs are obviously doing something similar, like what was done with Classic Sonic in Generations. Just covering obvious physics booboos with script band-aids. Of course this just results in the game feeling janky all around.

[memoryman3]

Super Mario Odyssey's rolling physics.

 

 

[Psychicmoose103]

1 minute ago, memoryman3 said:

Super Mario Odyssey's rolling physics.

 

 

Never thought I would say that Mario would have better rolling physics then sonic the hedgehog

[Scar]

What an age we live in. A new stage. I like it, but imo it'd probably look a bit better with sunset colours in the background to give a contrast to the neon green. Red is also a complimentary colour to green so it should in theory go well together. Music is decent, but it lacks oomph. Kinda a bit too chill.

Level design is also just about OK. What isn't ok is the unnecessary automation. Those sideways half-pipes a la Hydrocity which you'd normally just spindash to overcome in classics now have speed boosters. Why? Gens!Classic has a stupidly OP spindash so these things shouldn't even be a problem with the slightly borked physics. Here its almost like they don't trust the player to be capable of overcoming such a simple physics problem.

I just don't understand this.

[JosepHenry]

well

at least they reached Sonic 1 physics

Now onward to original CD

[The Deleter]

3 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

You are forgetting about the speed cap. Remember, in Sonic 1 the speed cap applies unless you are rolling or jumping. In other words, the speed cap is only removed when you are in a ball. Both players in the video hit the speed booster, not just the player at the bottom. But only the player on the bottom went into a ball. Even though he went into a roll while going uphill, that still removed the speed cap, which allowed him to go farther.

No, the speed cap applies when travelling downhill. You go a set speed if you're running slightly downhill, but travel faster when you roll. It applies to the ability to gain speed, not a checkbox that says "he's got enough speed" as you seem to think the game behaves. (I wouldn't be surprised, but it'd still be bad in that case)

He didn't roll when travelling downhill. He rolled once he was already at the very bottom of the hill and then traveled upwards. And again, that speed cap shouldn't matter when they're going the same speed in the first place. There's no difference other than that one person came from the lower-path and rolled at the bottom of the hill, and the other person came from the higher path.

That's not natural. That's not what the classics did. That's not what Sonic 1 did. And that's not what Generations did, either. This is specific only to this game.

[Diogenes]

28 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

No, you got it wrong. The physics aren't worse in Forces compared to Generations. It's just different. You see, Sonic now has a ground speed cap unless he is jumping or rolling, just like in Sonic 1. You can see this clearly in the IGN footage, where Sonic increases in speed when rolling, and ends up going higher than when running. It's not worse, just different.

No, that is worse, not just different. It's unintuitive design that got polished out of the classic games for a reason. You shouldn't be slowed down by holding the direction you're going. And letting go of the Dpad/stick to try to keep your speed means having it get eaten away by Sonic's natural deceleration anyway.

[___-_]

17 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

You are forgetting about the speed cap. Remember, in Sonic 1 the speed cap applies unless you are rolling or jumping. In other words, the speed cap is only removed when you are in a ball. Both players in the video hit the speed booster, not just the player at the bottom. But only the player on the bottom went into a ball. Even though he went into a roll while going uphill, that still removed the speed cap, which allowed him to go farther.

I think that just makes the ramp itself scripted and binary, getting a fixed arch based on if you're running or rolling, not that there's a speed cap involved, because since in both videos both players are traveling at the same speed thanks to the booster, they should've both launched in the same arch in the air. Also the guy who rolled did it at the very last second as he got off the ramp, so it shouldn't have been that much of a difference.

That other post you quoted with the spindash snapping to the wall goes to show there is no type of momentum physics going on at all to even be speed capped. Everything's just binary and already predetermined based on whether you roll or run .

[Clewis]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Henry said:

at least they reached Sonic 1 physics

They haven't even managed to reach the level of physics used in the Master System version.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, Sonikko said:

Not really, it's not a start. T

Should clarify. I wasn't talking about the game with that. I was spouting hope that we could possibly just have a cordial back-and-forth.

1 hour ago, Sonikko said:

Why are you trying to whiteknight this game on every single aspect when I am providing you video evidence that it has glaring issues?

A horribly jaundiced response like that shows I was wrong. What the hell man? Is it impossible to just have a conversation or debate of this game without stooping to that??

You said there were absolutely no physics. And that opinionated statement was proven contradictory. That isn't white knighting. I even provided evidence with the video too. Throw shade at the game all you want, but not your peers for pointing stuff out like that.

And again, your incorrect assumptions of me, lead you down a needless path of trying to paint me as some blind defender of this game when I don't even have a stance on either of the two extremes.

There are plenty of people here who have been able to express their criticisms negative or positive without being so disrespectful to others.

Let's actually debate the game itself.

[Gemster312]

The way I see it is that things from the Classic Sonic Dimension are being warped into the Modern Sonic Dimension.

Green Hill zone gets warped into a Desert.
Casino Night zone gets warped into a Jungle.

It's not that Eggman is rebuilding weird things like a copy of Casino Night in the modern world, but rather that original zone (hence why the slot machine uses CLASSIC ICONS) are being merged into the modern dimension in weird places.

It's also why there is giant spikey vines attacking the casino in the background later in the act, as clearly it wasn't BUILT there, but rather landed there and nature is trying to tear it down.

Classic Sonic, along with many things from Classic Sonic's Dimension being pulled into this dimension and just dropped places.

 

 

 

[Scar]

The fact that we're having this intense debate over these physics is just a testament to the fact that they are, in some way, broken. They seem to have applied little stop-gap measures over the top of an existing physics system to simulate classic physics, but have failed at actually replicating them. The end result will be that they will feel every so slightly off to the casual player and totally broken to seasoned fans.

[Milo]

53 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

No, you got it wrong. The physics aren't worse in Forces compared to Generations. It's just different. You see, Sonic now has a ground speed cap unless he is jumping or rolling, just like in Sonic 1. You can see this clearly in the IGN footage, where Sonic increases in speed when rolling, and ends up going higher than when running. It's not worse, just different.

 

That ramp where Sonic flies off into the large swath of rings is a scripted ramp, you can see Sonic's movement when he exits being clearly predetermined, rather than being influenced by the ramps design or the player's input. Generations actually had scripted ramps too, but they were less obvious in their use and implementation.

Also, I don't know if this has been brought up, but holy shit (credit to TwilightyZone for discovering this):

Look at all of these smoke and mirrors on display here!

[Crazy_Diamond]

4 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

No, the speed cap applies when travelling downhill. You go a set speed if you're running slightly downhill, but travel faster when you roll. It applies to the ability to gain speed, not a checkbox that says "he's got enough speed" as you seem to think the game behaves. (I wouldn't be surprised, but it'd still be bad in that case)

He didn't roll when travelling downhill. He rolled once he was already at the very bottom of the hill and then traveled upwards. And again, that speed cap shouldn't matter when they're going the same speed in the first place. There's no difference other than that one person came from the lower-path and rolled at the bottom of the hill, and the other person came from the higher path.

That's not natural. That's not what the classics did. That's not what Sonic 1 did. And that's not what Generations did, either. This is specific only to this game.

Yeah, sorry. My initial post was a bit wrong. I should have watched the IGN video before hand. I've corrected it now. He rolls either right as he hits the booster or right after. I can't really tell, but it is definitely as he is moving downhill. That is why I think it is a speed cap situation.

4 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

I think that just makes the ramp itself scripted and binary, getting a fixed arch based on if you're running or rolling, not that there's a speed cap involved, because since in both videos both players are traveling at the same speed thanks to the booster, they should've both launched in the same arch in the air. Also the guy who rolled did it at the very last second as he got off the ramp, so it shouldn't have been that much of a difference.

That other post you quoted with the spindash snapping to the wall goes to show there is no type of momentum physics going on at all to even be speed capped. Everything's just binary.

Again, they aren't moving at the same speed after hitting the booster because the guy rolled as he hit the booster, which would increase his top speed. It isn't binary. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

Who was it that said "At least the springs are not hidden" well surprise!

And if you think that's a one off. I have news for you.

Those of you who are having secret PM conversations about this game, what do you think about this?

 

Because it looks really amateur to me.

 

Edit: Dammit beaten.