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Classic Forces Enemy Ai Vs Generations Classic Enemy Ai.


Badnik Mechanic
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Uhh to me the Forces motobogs are clearly moving before you kill them, at the very least they're not standing still, they just die so fast they barely have time to react to anything, makes sense I guess, not like Motobugs are the most complex enemies in the series, literraly the equivalent to the Goomba

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Huh, so I'm NOT losing my mind. It always looked like the enemies just weren't doing anything in the videos but no one else mentioned it so I thought maybe I just imagined it or was looking too hard.

I have nothing else to comment on for this. That's just plain lame. What's the point of an enemy if it doesn't hit me and piss me off?

HIT ME, DAMMIT!

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1 minute ago, Soniman said:

Uhh to me the Forces motobogs are clearly moving before you kill them, at the very least they're not standing still, they just die so fast they barely have time to react to anything, makes sense I guess, not like Motobugs are the most complex enemies in the series, literraly the equivalent to the Goomba

They're not, they're definitely not. 

You can tell from the first one, it's even sat in a small dip and is on a light green strip of grass and never moves from this spot. The camera movement which tracks Sonic gives it a sense of movement, but it definitely doesn't move aside from an idle animation. The second one is the same... pause the video the moment it enters into frame... check out the colour of the grass and then pause it just before Sonic destroys it, it never moves.

The only ones which I've seen move are the ones I identified in the post.

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1 minute ago, Josh said:

I mean, I'm kind of used to modern Sonic enemies not doing anything so I thought they were just bein themselves.

Not even trying to be a smart ass either. Sonic usually kills enemies before they can process he's there in these games so it hasn't registered to me that they were doing nothing.

Well yeah, but that's Modern games. I expect that to be the case since I play those to feel like an overpowered badass that just plows through everything with careful precision.

Except in Lost World. Lost World enemies are a pain.

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1 minute ago, Josh said:

I mean, I'm kind of used to modern Sonic enemies not doing anything so I thought they were just bein themselves.

Not even trying to be a smart ass either. Sonic usually kills enemies before they can process he's there in these games so it hasn't registered to me that they were doing nothing.

Not checked the 2D view but just had a look at the initial section of Sunset Heights for Modern Sonic, was curious about the Egg Pawns.

For the modern stages, the Egg Pawns have better Ai than the classic stage counter parts, all the enemies react under the same conditions, the Egg Pawns do indeed raise their weapons when the player gets within a specific distance to them, every single one.

There's no movement around the stage, but reaction behaviour based on proximity is there. It also appears that they operate on line of sight, it's virtually the same Ai behaviour as the Classic stage modes, only it's constant.

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Speaking of Lost World, enemy AI (regarding 2D gameplay) was also better in that gameas well. Check Windy Hill Act 2, most of the badniks react to Sonic when he's in close proximity.

 

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49 minutes ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

Well yeah, but that's Modern games. I expect that to be the case since I play those to feel like an overpowered badass that just plows through everything with careful precision.

Except in Lost World. Lost World enemies are a pain.

With all due respect... what's the point of that, from a gameplay perspective? I mean, where's the challenge if enemies are a total non-issue?

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18 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

With all due respect... what's the point of that, from a gameplay perspective? I mean, where's the challenge if enemies are a total non-issue?

Clearing the stages with perfect precision to get the fastest times possible is the true challenge and all that I care about for those games.

Other than that, I'm not really looking for a challenge at all. Some of us don't need things to be super challenging to be fun. <3

I expect different things from different games, after all. Like, if I want an action game that's just mindless fun with no real challenge, I play a Warriors game. When I want to be tested and constantly pull my hair out, I start a Level 1 Critical Mode Run of a Kingdom Hearts game.

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This is something I've noticed in some of the Avatar footage as well, however I think its less of a chink in the distance/AI recognition and more of an entirely too generous lag time between AI recognition and enemy actually taking action.

For the most part, the Egg Pawn knock offs seem to track Sonic no problem, but the lag time between recognition and reaction is almost an entire quarter second. When Classic is in motion, that is enough time to obliterate an Eggpawn before he can even ready his gun, let alone charge it. When Sonic enters an area with no momentum (such as when he falls directly down into a baddie pit in that GHZ footage), the Pawns have enough screentime to react accordingly.

 

I suspect this lag time is intentional, but morseo for the Avatar. The lag provides ample opportunity for your CaC to "strike" first with his equipped wispon, and sets an inherent delay for retaliatory action by badnik enemies. It creates a second worth of safe zone that a user can capitalize on. Its actually the reason why in the early goings we saw so many noob Avatar players tacking cheap damage when they engaged enemies in a row with a homing attack, followed up with a wispon strike. By the time they realized that the wispon would be a better option than the repeated homing strikes, badniks in the row ahead had a second and a half to ready a murderous volley. Blammo

 

While Modern Sonic enemy's seem to have their own AI rule set (they have to react much, MUCH faster after all) Classic's seem to be copy pasted from the Avatar levels, which is a mistake considering half of them are met at speed. Unless we get some quick-draw models later in the game, these badniks simply can't react fast enough to be a worthwhile challenge without the aid of some cleaver level design. If these are the canon fodder enemies of the first few levels, then its no big deal. If these are the blokes that populate the entire game, then we may have another problem to contend with.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

With all due respect... what's the point of that, from a gameplay perspective? I mean, where's the challenge if enemies are a total non-issue?

Usually what kills me in a Boost game (Generations to be specific), are bottomless pits. Like if I jumped or mid-air dashed at a bad time or boosted in a bad place and fall off the stage. Enemies are just there to either slow you down or take away all the rings you've been collecting, both of which affect your score. They'll never actually kill you though, unless you're really really bad.

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You'd think Eggman would build enemies built around Sonic and his speed lol. 

Cant believe I'm saying this, but I envy how reactive and smart the Gaia enemies and night egg robot enemies were in Unleashed. Was, quite literally, night and day between the night and day levels, when looking at the ai.

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Enemies typically reacted relatively fast in the early games even if they weren't built around matching Sonic's speed...and even if they didn't, they were designed like traps and stuff.

 

If you didn't have torpedo enemies, roller enemies, Egg-Robos, or Slicers...then you had fake spikes, chameleon enemies, or the various designs of Orbinauts.

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19 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

The enemies in Unleashed, Colours,Generations and Forces all  suffer from having incredibly long wind-up animations, making them unlikely to ever reach the point of actually attacking you. More often than not, any projectile that they eventually shoot will move really slowly too. I think the only enemies that pose a threat or challenge in Generations are the spanner-throwing Egg Pawns in Planet Wisp. It shouldn't take 2-5 seconds for an enemy to attack; they should react almost instantly. Lost World actually did a fantastic job using enemies as obstacles that a had to be approached differently, because they reacted swiftly to Sonic and in different ways. None of them were particularly difficult, which isn't want to want from a Sonic game, but they were mini-challenges of their own. You had to react to the enemies just as they react to you. 

Just for clarity, when I say "challenge" I don't mean anything that's particularly difficult. I don't want enemies to be too difficult or pace-breaking either. But I do want them to take a brief bit of thought to tackle. In Forces, it's just boost and homing attack for Modern, spam Wisps for Avatar, and jump on non-reacting obstacles as Classic. Lost World's enemies do so much more, and and many of them required a bit of smart timing. 

When I rag on about Sonic Team and poor game design, this is one of the things that's always on my mind. Enemies that barely do anything is not good game design.

You know, it's weird. You're absolutely right when it comes to the Lost World enemies versus the ones from all those other games. Yet, for some reason I actually remember being more annoyed by it in Lost World. For some reason I remember taking out enemies always feeling satisfying when playing Unleashed or Generations. Probably because of the really primitive side of me that really does just love plowing through them and watching them bounce across the screen when I boost into them. I remember the very first time I saw that happen in Apotos and it gave me such a thrill. And it hasn't really worn off just yet despite being totally okay with the idea of abandoning the boost formula should they go back to something better.

I have four games with it, I'm alright not getting anymore. Perhaps there's a way they can do what you ask for in a way that feels satisfying to me. Lost World didn't for me but I feel like that may just be choked up to the fact that attacking any enemy in that game felt like a chore. Literally just pressing the button to do a homing attack held little satisfaction. I don't know if it's because of how less bombastic it was or what. I only really remember feeling good when I'd hit a bunch of enemies in a row like in the Honeycomb Highway level. 

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See, to me, it feels less like I'm a super powerful cool guy plowing through enemies... and more like the game is seriously patronizing me and giving me some easy wins to make me feel better.

Taking out a bunch of enemies only feels like an accomplishment if those enemies pose even the remotest of threats, and dispatching them requires at least a little skill.

Aside from just pure aesthetics, this is what made the Badniks memorable and the current generic sentry bots (which are basically Egg Pawns with less personality) not.

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One of the things I really liked a lot about Lost World was how enemies posed a challenge and there were different methods of dispatching each one. Unfortunately they weren't always intuitive about it and chances are you'll be going through a lot of trial and error before you figure out how to defeat something. That's not usually the case in the classic games.

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12 minutes ago, Sean said:

One of the things I really liked a lot about Lost World was how enemies posed a challenge and there were different methods of dispatching each one. Unfortunately they weren't always intuitive about it and chances are you'll be going through a lot of trial and error before you figure out how to defeat something. That's not usually the case in the classic games.

I still think SLW had ht eright idea in most cases, and in other cases you have this

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Disgusting

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@Soniman I assume you're talking about some enemies only being weak to the kick and would damage you if you hit them with a spindash or homing attack? And visa-versa in some cases? Yeah. That seriously undermined the otherwise good enemies in the game. You just had absolutely no way of knowing what was going to happen. 

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