Sonic Forces - Chemical Plant is back

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

14 hours ago, Mayor D said:

If the argument against this game is that strong for you, maybe you want to consider not buying the game?

Ummm, if I turn my brain off and I get to enjoy the game after that, then I enjoy the game?

Better yet, are you going to buy the game "day 1" too? Because I barely seen you give any praise to it. If you still going to buy the game, please stop with the hypocrisy.

[Badnik Mechanic]

28 minutes ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

Better yet, are you going to buy the game "day 1" too? Because I barely seen you give any praise to it. If you still going to buy the game, please stop with the hypocrisy.

Based on what I have currently seen I will not be buying the game day 1.

Also there's no need to be so hostile, you stated you probably wouldn't enjoy the game unless you turned off your brain, so don't be so horrified someone suggested to avoid it.

[Sonikko]

21 hours ago, Wisphead said:

Wut.

The only piece related to this I've heard is the "Absolutely not Generations 2" remark that Iizuka made that, well, you know...

And I mean come on, since Generations that this series has been extremely lacking in the originality department. I love Mania as much as anybody else, but I would have rather, you know, have preferred more than 4 god damned new stages in that game. 

 

"It will be a brand new experience"

EDIT: Also yeah, everyone would've preferred all original stages in Mania, that's like the only constant "complain" I see referred at that game. But Mania nailed everything it was going for. Forces doesn't.

[Blue Blood]

At least with Mania I can say "I didn't want to see old levels again, but they've done a really good job of freshening them up. And the handful of new levels are really exciting". With Forces, none of the levels look particularly good regardless of if they're new or old. We've not seen Chemical Plant in action yet, but the other levels in this game don't fill me with hope.

Opinions and subjectivity blah blah blah...

[JosepHenry]

14 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

 

"It will be a brand new experience"

EDIT: Also yeah, everyone would've preferred all original stages in Mania, that's like the only constant "complain" I see referred at that game. But Mania nailed everything it was going for. Forces doesn't.

Nailed is a really strong word.

They got lazy on later stages. Hydrocity, Oil Ocean and specially Lava Reef.

[Sonikko]

10 minutes ago, Joseph Henry said:

Nailed is a really strong word.

They got lazy on later stages. Hydrocity, Oil Ocean and specially Lava Reef.

"Lazy".
Mania had a one year dev cycle. Stages were cut, some didn't get the same polish and time others got. It's bound to happen when you're on a limited budget and short dev time.

Still, Hydrocity isn't the most remixed stage, but it's pretty fresh. They did a great job with Oil Ocean imho mixing it up with Sandopolis, not really a stale stage. Lava Reef, I wasn't much of a fan of the original stage to begin with, and Mania didn't change my mind unfortunately.

They managed to make me love Metallic Madness, which is a big accomplishment.

EDIT. I mean, with the amount of passion behind Mania, I think it's really unfair to refer at the devs as lazy...

[Blitz 'n Burst]

15 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

At least with Mania I can say "I didn't want to see old levels again, but they've done a really good job of freshening them up. And the handful of new levels are really exciting". With Forces, none of the levels look particularly good regardless of if they're new or old. We've not seen Chemical Plant in action yet, but the other levels in this game don't fill me with hope.

Opinions and subjectivity blah blah blah...

Also wasn't it Iizuka's idea for Mania to have recycled stages in the first place?

[JosepHenry]

7 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

"Lazy".
Mania had a one year dev cycle. Stages were cut, some didn't get the same polish and time others got. It's bound to happen when you're on a limited budget and short dev time.

Still, Hydrocity isn't the most remixed stage, but it's pretty fresh. They did a great job with Oil Ocean imho mixing it up with Sandopolis, not really a stale stage. Lava Reef, I wasn't much of a fan of the original stage to begin with, and Mania didn't change my mind unfortunately.

They managed to make me love Metallic Madness, which is a big accomplishment.

EDIT. I mean, with the amount of passion behind Mania, I think it's really unfair to refer at the devs as lazy...

Passion doesn't mean anything anymore, Mania and Forces are full of passion in some way or another. I see passion in both projects, but does anyone care or thinks about BOTH? No.

[Sonikko]

1 minute ago, Joseph Henry said:

Passion doesn't mean anything anymore, Mania and Forces are full of passion in some way or another. I see passion in both projects, but does anyone care or thinks about BOTH? No.

Did you just ignore the main point of my post? The development cycle for Mania was insanely short, and the product that came out is pretty meaty and polished for what they could do in that timeframe.

Forces on the other hand had 4 years of development, their say. How's that looking?

[Wraith]

6 minutes ago, Blitz 'n Burst said:

Also wasn't it Iizuka's idea for Mania to have recycled stages in the first place?

Yes, but the game was planned to be a small bonus with remasters as the alternative. Iizuka's suggestion allowed Mania to stand on it's own as a product."

Forces might have it's own reasons for reusing levels as well. It might be why Nakamura is swearing up and down that this isn't a short game.

[Sonikko]

 

I haven't seen this posted here yet, might want to take a look at it. I'd like for people to say that Forces GHZ is still better than Mania's now that the comparison is so direct.

Sure it's not exactly the same, but it's a pretty accurate reconstruction.

[JosepHenry]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

Did you just ignore the main point of my post? The development cycle for Mania was insanely short, and the product that came out is pretty meaty and polished for what they could do in that timeframe.

Forces on the other hand had 4 years of development, their say. How's that looking?

Let's not compare the development cycle of Mania with anything, please? Mania already had an engine to be used, had assets, not only that, I think is easy to know that a 2D game is easier to make than a 3D game.

What if Forces didn't had any of that? Along with development problems?Everything had to be made from the scratch on the last minute?

The thing is... I don't know, and you don't know either.

 

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

 

I haven't seen this posted here yet, might want to take a look at it. I'd like for people to say that Forces GHZ is still better than Mania's now that the comparison is so direct.

Sure it's not exactly the same, but it's a pretty accurate reconstruction.

Who the heck said that Forces GHZ is better than Mania GHZ even without looking at the full Forces level to a fair comparison? If someone said that, they were probably trying too hard to defend it.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Henry said:

What if Forces didn't had any of that? Along with development problems?Everything had to be made from the scratch on the last minute?

Having 4 years is at the last minute, now?

[Sonikko]

6 minutes ago, Joseph Henry said:

Let's not compare the development cycle of Mania with anything, please? Mania already had an engine to be used, had assets, not only that, I think is easy to know that a 2D game is easier to make than a 3D game.

What if Forces didn't had any of that? Along with development problems?Everything had to be made from the scratch on the last minute?

The thing is... I don't know, and you don't know either.

Mania and Forces are very similar actually. Mania had its own engine rebuilt, runs on Retro engine 5, not Retro Engine 3 or 4 like the previous remasters.

Forces saw its graphic engine rebuilt, Hedgehog Engine 2. But it's still running on Unleashed/Generations/Lost World engine, which clearly shows from gameplay footage/ box-based level design (DarioFF tweet), physics reminiscent of Lost World and various items returning from the latter game.

Forces is reusing assets from Generations, it was proven long ago. Comparisons between textures of the totem poles and bridges from GHZ were made, they were exactly the same. It's reusing assets. 

Mania "reuses" assets, but they're not just picked up from the original source and thrown in the game. They're redrawn, some of them look completely different now, take a look at Stardust Speedway. They even said Lava Reef tileset had to be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up because it wasn't utilizable in the new engine.

Forces might've had some development issues, who knows, but is that an excuse? So did Sonic 06 and it's still a bad game. They're selling this stuff lol.

It's indeed easier to make a 2D game than a 3D one, but a one year development cycle? That's an insanely low time-frame.

6 minutes ago, Joseph Henry said:

Who the heck said that Forces GHZ is better than Mania GHZ even without looking at the full Forces level to a fair comparison? If someone said that, they were probably trying too hard to defend it.

Well, people on this very forum said it lol.

[Clewis]

6 minutes ago, Joseph Henry said:

Let's not compare the development cycle of Mania with anything, please? Mania already had an engine to be used, had assets, not only that, I think is easy to know that a 2D game is easier to make than a 3D game.

You'd think Sonic Team would be having an easier time developing Forces then.

[JosepHenry]

Fine, I lose.

 

....I think something happened during the development of Forces.

That's all I have to say!

Spoiler

Rule 1. "Say that Mania is a godsend or else you're going to have a bad time" lol

 

 

[Sonikko]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Henry said:

Rule 1. "Say that Mania is a godsend or else you're going to have a bad time" lol

As much as I think that Mania is a godsend, both because it's a great game in a withered down franchise, and because of what it means for young devs that aren't already part of the industry, I feel like that remark comes off as a little immature.

Like, you don't have to say I am right, nobody's going to shoot you if you don't think it's the case lol.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, Joseph Henry said:

 

  Hide contents

Rule 1. "Say that Mania is a godsend or else you're going to have a bad time" lol

 

 

Maybe Mania's so popular because it's actually good.

Maybe Forces is being compared to Mania (unfavorably, I might add) because Sonic just starred in his highest-reviewed game in 15 years, and it isn't unreasonable to hold a game with a four-year development cycle to the same (or an even higher) standard.

 

[JosepHenry]

5 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

As much as I think that Mania is a godsend, both because it's a great game in a withered down franchise, and because of what it means for young devs that aren't already part of the industry, I feel like that remark comes off as a little immature.

Like, you don't have to say I am right, nobody's going to shoot you if you don't think it's the case lol.

I was joking.

Mania is sorta of a godsend if you think about it, I understand.

[Sonikko]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Henry said:

I was joking.

Mania is sorta of a godsend if you think about it, I understand.

Welp, I didn't get the joke. Sorry ^^'.

[MegasonicZX]

16 minutes ago, Joseph Henry said:

Fine, I lose.

 

....I think something happened during the development of Forces.

That's all I have to say!

  Reveal hidden contents

Rule 1. "Say that Mania is a godsend or else you're going to have a bad time" lol

 

 

I mean no ones saying you can't criticize mania (people have had enough time with it to see where its faults and strengths are) and if it actually comes from an informed perspective instead of a fanboy one (ex. "mania is bad because its classic and its bad) I can't see why anyone would give you grief for it.

[Stasis]

Really wanna know why Forces is basically a last gen game being partially upgraded for modern platforms? I'm looking forward to my next 3D Sonic fix, but this should have been so much more.

[Razule]

9 minutes ago, Stasis said:

Really wanna know why Forces is basically a last gen game being partially upgraded for modern platforms? I'm looking forward to my next 3D Sonic fix, but this should have been so much more.

Ze Switch

[Diogenes]

The Switch doesn't have anything to do with Forces' actual issues.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

4 minutes ago, Razule said:

Ze Switch

Y'know I'm looking forward to Forces,  but I ain't gonna back the idea that the Switch,  which in some areas apparently has a better looking Fifa 2018 than the Xbone version,  is to blame for that.