Sonic Forces Me To Look Ahead: Where does (3D) Sonic go from here after Forces/2017?

[Framerate]

Yeah I just do hope for a new sonic game I keep thinking this has been a crazy year for playformers if we need to succeed with a sonic game we need to go beyond expectations. But I'm gonna ask this should the next sonic game be a open world sandbox with stages and zones or no becuase I bet after the complaints about forces linear level design I feel like that's what they are gonna do next

[Detective Kaito]

It'll either be another boost game, return to Adventure gameplay, or something completely new.

[andrew2]

Next game should be fully 3D. Boost formula needs to die - its had its time in the sun. 3D Sonic desperately needs innovation. Develop a new control scheme which delivers momentum, speed, platforming, and exploration. Playable Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. If you wanted, you could call it Sonic Adventure 3 ahahahaha.

[Framerate]

Would you guys want a open world sonic game with boost gameplay were you can play as sonic, tails, knuckles, amy and the custom character. And the return with choa garden. Would you want that in a sonic game?

[James Cloud]

1 minute ago, Framerate said:

Would you guys want a open world sonic game with boost gameplay were you can play as sonic, tails, knuckles, amy and the custom character. And the return with choa garden. Would you want that in a sonic game?

That'd be awesome!

[Framerate]

Another thing we can also built it up with the hedgehog engine 2 but I think we need to keep the art style becuase it looks good I don't want no 06 levels of realizim I do something what Mario Odyssey did with its humans so yeah 

[Guest]

Annoyingly, despite the 4 year wait for Forces I'm not keen on returning to a frequency greater than that at the moment. Given what I've seen of Forces, and from what Hogfather described about the internal development problems, I do not think SonicTeam are in a good position to proceed at the minute. The current team needs a shakeup, and I kinda feel things could be better with different people at the top. To have these sorts of directional problems in Japan and then meet such contrasting reception from their own teams in the West during Forces development is seriously alarming.

I'm sick of the Sonic series constantly changing direction.. but this is really one of the first times I've personally felt it desperately needs it.

Go back to the drawing board, with people who actually understand the problems with the series' current direction. Re-evaluate Sonic in a 3D space.

[Framerate]

So you think the character creator was a bad idea? I actually really buying the game because of that

[CleverSonicUsername]

As far as the 3D series goes, I just want a boost game that focuses on refining that style mechanically, with levels that feel like they're complimentary to it without being hallways broken up by set pieces and bare bones platforming. The boost gameplay has been the best Sonic has gotten in 3D, in my opinion. I think the Adventure games are jank incarnate and believe Sonic Team is best off trying to expand on what is right now a decent foundation without fucking it all up with gimmicks.

The modern stages in Generations are about as close as I've gotten to what I want out of Modern Sonic. It could have been better, more intricate, but it was getting there.

[Rabid-Coot]

Sonic - either ditch the boost or restrict it to small sections specifically designed to make it interesting. Implament a ground attack that functions like the spin in Crash Bandicoot but based on a Sonic style ball roll.

Tails/Knuckles - A series of Mario/Banjo/Yooka styled reasonably large open platforming areas that take adantage of their traversal skills.

Avatar - Make some Ratchet & Clank style levels their grapple and wispons seem well suited for somthing like this.

Amy - Something between God of War and the Werehog but with the hammer.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

Do something small or give Taxman something to do. Doesn't have to be big. Just well thought out and designed competently to fit Sonic(without creating a new gameplay focus).

[Detective Kaito]

1 hour ago, Rabid-Coot said:

Sonic - either ditch the boost or restrict it to small sections specifically designed to make it interesting. Implament a ground attack that functions like the spin in Crash Bandicoot but based on a Sonic style ball roll.

Tails/Knuckles - A series of Mario/Banjo/Yooka styled reasonably large open platforming areas that take adantage of their traversal skills.

Avatar - Make some Ratchet & Clank style levels their grapple and wispons seem well suited for somthing like this.

Amy - Something between God of War and the Werehog but with the hammer.

...Why? Why should Sonic have multiple gameplay styles while series like Mario, Ratchet & Clank, and Crash Bandicoot only have one (at least one per game)?

Just make a gameplay style that fits all characters, just like the Genesis games did it. I don't play Sonic for God of War or Mario, I play it for Sonic.

[Rabid-Coot]

28 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

...Why? Why should Sonic have multiple gameplay styles while series like Mario, Ratchet & Clank, and Crash Bandicoot only have one (at least one per game)?

Just make a gameplay style that fits all characters, just like the Genesis games did it. I don't play Sonic for God of War or Mario, I play it for Sonic.

Because the series has a history of trying multiple gameplay styles in one game and it gives some of the other cast members something to do without having an entire levels assets fly by in seconds.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Rabid-Coot said:

Because the series has a history of trying multiple gameplay styles in one game and it gives some of the other cast members something to do without having an entire levels assets fly by in seconds.

Forget the other cast members. They should only be in the games when they add to the experience; If they have gameplay that heavily conflicts with the core gameplay, they detract from it. And if the core gameplay is problematic already then it will be even worse all-around! Thankfully Sonic Team has already mostly learned this lesson. 2D Sonic games have already found an intelligent way to add multiple playable characters with their own stories because the gameplay has been excellently re-established. I don't want to hear anything about having unimportant side characters being included until 3D is figured out...because at this point it will literally kill the series. (I'm not that self-important. You have every right to talk about them and all. Just expressing my feeling about it.)

 

Mania 2 might be a good idea while Sonic Team re-evaluates but it may even be better to not get that immediately; Because someone from the Mania Team needs to be a part of the potentially upcoming discussions about where to go with 3D Sonic next. They have to communicate to SEGA what almost everyone else seems to know about the appeal of the series core gameplay and aesthetic. If Forces does bomb, I don't want Mania 2 until there are some serious boardroom meetings and a decided on "new" direction for the series. And Whitehead and company need to be significant contributors at that boardroom table.

 

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

1 hour ago, Rabid-Coot said:

Because the series has a history of trying multiple gameplay styles in one game and it gives some of the other cast members something to do without having an entire levels assets fly by in seconds.

Sonic is unique due to it. 

Different Gameplay styles for platformers in this sort of manner isn't a common thing and Sonic is one of the few top dogs who actually experiments with this. Do I think there should always alternative gameplay?(specifically like the Werehog) no. Those should be dwindled down to special occasions.

 

The perfect example wouldn't be like Sonic 3&K as they honestly don't meet up with the standards anymore. Far to basic. 

Sonic Advance 3 is the best example of having alternative gameplay without sacrificing too much. Plus it's easy to develop without using a whole lot of assets  and makes the game really deep on how to approach levels.

 

 

 

 

[GuyWithThePie]

I want to wait and see what Sonic Utopia will become. If the final game is well-received enough (Some people are already calling it the best 3D Sonic game based on the demo alone) maybe it will make Sonic Team reconsider their approach to 3D Sonic.

[Milo]

7 hours ago, Rabid-Coot said:

Because the series has a history of trying multiple gameplay styles in one game and it gives some of the other cast members something to do without having an entire levels assets fly by in seconds.

And look where that history has gotten us. Ten years of mainline Sonic games with no playable characters other than Sonic whatsoever, outside of another variant of Sonic (classic Sonic, Werehog) between Sonic 2006 and Mania/Forces; they weren't even utilized for major roles in the games' stories either. All supposedly for the sake of focusing on modern Sonic gameplay and keeping things simple / playing it safe. Even so, the first non-Sonic character in a mainline 3D Sonic game in a decade ends up being a create-a-character system, rather than any of the existing members.

The 2D Sonic games never went crazy with mutilating the gameplay focus; meanwhile even Shadow haters will admit he's better to play than Tails in Adventure 2. Nobody gives Luigi/Peach/Toad/Rosalina in Super Mario 3D World or Coco in Crash N-Sane Trilogy any flack for how they play, meanwhile almost every character in the Adventure games and Sonic 2006 are heavily contested for their playstyles. It's not uncommon for people to say only one-third of Adventure 2 or half of Unleashed is actually worth playing--and the latter had a different gameplay genre applied to Sonic himself. Super Mario Galaxy and its sequel wouldn't have anywhere near the acclaimed status they have if huge chunks of those game were dedicated to levels that are rare brief diversions at best, like the ray surfing, ball rolling, star pulling, and trash-destroying levels.

People buy Sonic games for Sonic gameplay. Not to spend half or the majority of the game trudging through other playstyles they didn't buy the game for and might not even like in the first place; just so they can play the quarter of Sonic gameplay they actually wanted and expected. If you want to try out other genres, go play games where that genre is actually the focus of the game. Not games where they try to juggle multiple genres at once, and the result is a uneven mess of gameplay priorities that divides reviewers and fans on whether those various playstyles effectively ruin the entire game or not.

And if the problem with other playable characters is that they might break the game due to their abilities...surely the natural thing to do is to limit their abilities so that they don't break levels? Or build levels specifically designed with those abilities in mind without changing the gameplay focus completely? You don't burn the blueprints for a house and start from scratch if you find some flaws with the internal structure.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

1 minute ago, Yeow said:

And look where that history has gotten us. Ten years of mainline Sonic games with no playable characters other than Sonic whatsoever outside of Sonic or another variant of him (classic Sonic, Werehog) between Sonic 2006 and Mania/Forces; they weren't even utilizes for major roles in the games' story either. All supposedly for the sake of focusing on modern Sonic gameplay and keeping things simple / playing it safe. Even so, the first non-Sonic character in a mainline 3D Sonic game ends up being a create-a-character system, rather than any of the existing members.

The 2D Sonic games never went crazy with mutilating the gameplay focus; meanwhile even Shadow haters will admit he's better to play than Tails in Adventure 2. Nobody gives Luigi/Peach/Toad/Rosalina any flack in Super Mario 3D World or Coco in Crash N-Sane Trilogy any flack for how they play, meanwhile almost every character in the Adventure games and Sonic 2006 are heavily contested for their playstyles. It's not uncommon for people to say only one-third of Adventure 2 or half of Unleashed is actually worth playing--and the latter had a different gameplay genre applied to Sonic himself. Super Mario Galaxy and its sequel wouldn't have anywhere near the acclaimed status it did if huge chunks of the game were dedicated to levels that are rare brief diversions at best, like the ray surfing, ball rolling, star pulling, and trash-destroying levels.

People buy Sonic games for Sonic gameplay. Not to spend half or the majority of the game trudging through other playstyles they didn't buy the game for and might not even like in the first place; just so they can play the quarter of Sonic gameplay they actually wanted. If you want to try out other genres, go play games where that genre is actually the focus of the gameplay. Not games where they try to juggle multiple genres at once and the result is a uneven mess of gameplay priorities that divides reviewers and fans on whether those various playstyles effectively ruin the entire game or not.

And if the problem with other playable characters is that they might break the game due to their abilities...surely the natural thing to do is to limit their abilities so that they don't break levels? Or build levels specifically designed with those abilities in mind without changing the gameplay focus completely? You don't burn the blueprints for a house and start from scratch if you find some flaws with the internal structure.

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People buy Sonic games for Sonic gameplay

Vague description on what can be put into Sonic games.

Does Knuckles from Adventure not warrant apart of Sonic gameplay? Does Shadow count or are we still calling that a Sonic game? Are you purely speaking that Sonic games should only regulate to Sonic himself and/or have characters that are similar to his style? If so, what is Colors? People have been saying it was a true return to form despite it going against his design. I play Sonic games for many different things. I was glad the werehog was implemented because it broke up the pace of the game while adding different elements of depth in the mix. I made a previous statement that if the gameplay does too much to affect the core Sonic style, it should not be made and should be put in at a later date once you establish the main game. 

Sonic having alternative aspects to his games can create interesting dynamics and unique display of platformer "genre" complexities. The "best ones" seem to be the kind that matches his style.

 

But I think the ones that deviate from the path, if fleshed out, are also acceptable.

This is my own definition of what a Sonic game can entail. Reducing him to just his gameplay seems to reduce his actual character(streamlining him with the typical platformer mindset). Because unlike Mario, Sonic fights for and supports his friends.

Quote

 

Nobody gives Luigi/Peach/Toad/Rosalina any flack in Super Mario 3D World or Coco in Crash N-Sane Trilogy any flack for how they play

 

They all play the same with some differences. Doesn't add an incredible amount but doesn't take it away either. It's obvious why there is no complaint because there is consistency. SEGA has always be inconsistent(both good and a bad thing) with most if not all of their products when talking about Sonic in different ways.

Quote

Super Mario Galaxy and its sequel wouldn't have anywhere near the acclaimed status it did if huge chunks of the game were dedicated to levels that are rare brief diversions at best

Sonic Adventure 1 and especially Sonic Adventure 2 were the most acclaimed 3D sonic games and Sonic games period. Only later did this status start fade.

Quote

The 2D Sonic games never went crazy with mutilating the gameplay focus;

There wasn't a focus on it. Tails and knuckles were at best; Nice little add-ons. The whole point was to focus on Sonic's gameplay. Tails and Knuckles were an after thought.

I'm not disagreeing you shouldn't have Sonic being fleshed out first. Should be the main priority.

[Milo]

3 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Vague description on what can be put into Sonic games.

Does Knuckles from Adventure not warrant apart of Sonic gameplay? Does Shadow count or are we still calling that a Sonic game? Are you purely speaking that Sonic games should only regulate to Sonic himself and/or have characters that are similar to his style? If so, what is Colors? People have been saying it was a true return to form despite it going against his design. I play Sonic games for many different things. I was glad the werehog was implemented because it broke up the pace of the game while adding different elements of depth in the mix. I made a previous statement that if the gameplay does too much to affect the core Sonic style, it should not be made and should be put in at a later date once you establish the main game. 

I think it's pretty obvious there are some clear basic principles people will usually cite when they talk about Sonic gameplay. Nobody's going to really list "shooting enemies" or "hunting emeralds" or "Chao gardens" immediately off the bat if someone asked them to name the first trait of Sonic gameplay off the top of their head, and anyone that does is likely part of a very niche group. Even if some specifics need to be brought up for what kind of Sonic gameplay we're talking, there are pretty clearly three types of gameplay (Genesis, Adventure, Boost) that are the most popular among reviewers and fans. The fanbase has diverse opinions, but basic principles of what constitutes Sonic gameplay aren't some imaginary aura that is impossible to lay down a consensus on.

3 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Sonic Adventure 1 and especially Sonic Adventure 2 were the most acclaimed 3D sonic games and Sonic games period. Only later did this status start fade.

Even at the time of release, people heavily criticized Big's fishing gameplay in Adventure 1 and the mech shooting and emerald hunting in Adventure 2 also received complaints. The enhanced GC port for Adventure 2 tellingly got noticeably worse reviews compared to the original DC release despite being released a few months later, and the enhanced GC port for Adventure 1 reviewed even worse reviews compared to the DC original, despite Adventure 1 being just four/five years old.

[PandaChao]

On 10/16/2017 at 10:38 PM, soniclegender said:

Am I the only one here who really likes 3D/2.5D Sonic? I know the games have problems, but I hope I'm not the only one who finds them really enjoyable.

I never had a problem with the 3D/2.5 gameplay. It has been decent for the most part, however with a few exceptions.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

I've always been an ardent defender of 2.5D, but lately it's just been used as a way to shove in all the platforming and never attempt any substantial platforming in 3D. It's a crutch, and at this point I think we'd be much more likely to see actual platforming in a 3D space if someone high up at Sonic Team outright declared, "There will be no 2.5D in the next Sonic game." It's what I think needs to happen, regardless of who's developing it. 

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

1 hour ago, Yeow said:

I think it's pretty obvious there are some clear basic principles people will usually cite when they talk about Sonic gameplay. Nobody's going to really list "shooting enemies" or "hunting emeralds" or "Chao gardens" immediately off the bat if someone asked them to name the first trait of Sonic gameplay off the top of their head, and anyone that does is likely part of a very niche group. Even if some specifics need to be brought up for what kind of Sonic gameplay we're talking, there are pretty clearly three types of gameplay (Genesis, Adventure, Boost) that are the most popular among reviewers and fans. The fanbase has diverse opinions, but basic principles of what constitutes Sonic gameplay aren't some imaginary aura that is impossible to lay down a consensus on.

Even at the time of release, people heavily criticized Big's fishing gameplay in Adventure 1 and the mech shooting and emerald hunting in Adventure 2 also received complaints. The enhanced GC port for Adventure 2 tellingly got noticeably worse reviews compared to the original DC release despite being released a few months later, and the enhanced GC port for Adventure 1 reviewed even worse reviews compared to the DC original, despite Adventure 1 being just four/five years old.

 

1 hour ago, Yeow said:

I think it's pretty obvious there are some clear basic principles people will usually cite when they talk about Sonic gameplay. Nobody's going to really list "shooting enemies" or "hunting emeralds" or "Chao gardens" immediately off the bat if someone asked them to name the first trait of Sonic gameplay off the top of their head, and anyone that does is likely part of a very niche group. Even if some specifics need to be brought up for what kind of Sonic gameplay we're talking, there are pretty clearly three types of gameplay (Genesis, Adventure, Boost) that are the most popular among reviewers and fans. The fanbase has diverse opinions, but basic principles of what constitutes Sonic gameplay aren't some imaginary aura that is impossible to lay down a consensus on.

Even at the time of release, people heavily criticized Big's fishing gameplay in Adventure 1 and the mech shooting and emerald hunting in Adventure 2 also received complaints. The enhanced GC port for Adventure 2 tellingly got noticeably worse reviews compared to the original DC release despite being released a few months later, and the enhanced GC port for Adventure 1 reviewed even worse reviews compared to the DC original, despite Adventure 1 being just four/five years old.

The mainstream I know criticized that a lot with Big, even the fans. Though since I wasn't old enough during the late 90's I had to go based off of the Internet and mostly fan perspective.

What I understood was that SA1 and SA2 were still received well regardless(not including the ports. I oddly don't know why the second game was worse when it was re-released. Was it because it was more buggy like how SA1 DX?) 

[knuckles20]

 

11 hours ago, Framerate said:

Would you guys want a open world sonic game with boost gameplay were you can play as sonic, tails, knuckles, amy and the custom character. And the return with choa garden. Would you want that in a sonic game?

If it's actual 3D and doesn't rely on classic pandering sign me up.