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Sonic Forces Digital Comic (Moment of Truth, Stress Test, Looming Shadow, Rise of Infinite)

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19 minutes ago, Clewis said:

If Silver leaves for the future, and then some time after an event occurs that causes the apocalypse, Silver's future would already be in an apocalyptic state when he arrives. Silver and Sonic's respective time periods are a part of the same timeline.

That's what makes Silver constantly using time travel to influence the future so amusing. He never manages to truly fix anything about the future, because his actions in Sonic's present always end up causing Eggman/Nega/whoever to cause another apocalyptic event while he's gone. Then he essentially has to do a u-turn to fix another mess. Repeat ad infinitum because Sonic Team doesn't house very good writers.

Nah, I think Dr. Detective Mike is right, Silver said his future was peaceful in Colors DS. Maybe he's just aware of time warps or something.

6 minutes ago, KHCast said:

I loved everything about this holy shit. Really hope this kinda stuff is in the game.

Maybe if it was written by Ian Flynn.. but..

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14 minutes ago, Razule said:

Nah, I think Dr. Detective Mike is right, Silver said his future was peaceful in Colors DS.

I already said Sonic Team doesn't house very good writers, which is largely why they should stop trying to dabble in time travel-related narratives. Silver's future being all nice and pristine one day, and then completely apocalyptic the next because something happened in the past doesn't make any sense. His time period and Sonic's aren't separate entities than run alongside each other, they're both separate parts of the same timeline, otherwise why would Silver keep traveling back in time in an attempt to influence things?

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4 minutes ago, Joseph Henry said:

I think Ian will be involved in the game somehow.

Maybe as a script doctor or he is writing along with Nakamura.

A script doctor for the English trnaslation of the script, but aside from polish, it's not like he could add much.

1 minute ago, Clewis said:

I already said Sonic Team doesn't house very good writers, which is largely why they should stop trying to dabble in time travel-related narratives. Silver's future being all nice and pristine one day, and then completely apocalyptic the next because something happened in the past doesn't make any sense. His time period and Sonic's aren't separate entities than run alongside each other, they both separate parts of the same timeline, otherwise why would Silver keep traveling back in time in an attempt to influence things?

Well.. as you said, bad writing. 

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3 minutes ago, Clewis said:

I already said Sonic Team doesn't house very good writers, which is largely why they should stop trying to dabble in time travel-related narratives. Silver's future being all nice and pristine one day, and then completely apocalyptic the next because something happened in the past doesn't make any sense. His time period and Sonic's aren't separate entities than run alongside each other, they both separate parts of the same timeline, otherwise why would Silver keep traveling back in time in an attempt to influence things?

To be fair, time travel in and of itself is completely illogical, so no matter what the story is or how careful the writers are, there are bound to be some plot holes. It's just a matter of whether it fits in with the rules of the series' narrative and how much the audience is willing to suspend their disbelief.

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2 hours ago, Super Mechanio said:

I liked the part with Eggman. He was drawn well, even though he didn't really get any good lines in aside from exposition this time.

Knuckles' method of "calming Chaos down" by repeatedly punching him was kinda great too, not gonna lie.

Amazing how much better this chapter is now that it doesn't feature that whiney, self-loathing Avatar.

It wasn't an Avatar, it's the Soldier, the one talking through the radio in some stages. Even though I liked the first comic, mostly for the Chaotix, I gotta agree, he was too whiney, if we see him again I hope he has more confidence and character development from the comic. This part was great too.

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1 minute ago, Clewis said:

I already said Sonic Team doesn't house very good writers, which is largely why they should stop trying to dabble in time travel-related narratives. Silver's future being all nice and pristine one day, and then completely apocalyptic the next because something happened in the past doesn't make any sense. His time period and Sonic's aren't separate entities than run alongside each other, they both separate parts of the same timeline, otherwise why would Silver keep traveling back in time in an attempt to influence things?

It does make sense if you consider the ability to alter time. If you perform actions in the present normally, then obviously the future wouldn't change, because it is progressing normally towards it's intended conclusion. However, if you alter time itself, which we already know that the Phantom Ruby can do, then the course of history would change. So this would obviously affect the future and cause it to become different than it was before. The real puzzling question would be why Silver is even aware of the previous history if time was rewritten. Shouldn't his memories be rewritten as well? But that's the problems you run into when you try to write about an impossible phenomenon like time travel. The best thing to do is ignore stuff like that unless the narrative is really dependent on every detail making logical sense.

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2 minutes ago, Forterror-Metallix said:

To be fair, time travel in and of itself is completely illogical, so no matter what the story is or how careful the writers are, there are bound to be some plot holes. It's just a matter of whether it fits in with the rules of the series' narrative and how much the audience is willing to suspend their disbelief.

In that case, within the series' rules, Silver remembering makes sense. I mean.. this is how it was in Sonic CD, right?

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1 minute ago, Marcello said:

Honestly, just make Silver a Time Cop or something similar. And I don't mean basically make him one. Actually make him one. As in, part of a group or organization. Kinda like Legends of Tomorrow.

Silver is sounding more and more like Trunks every day.

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47 minutes ago, Forterror-Metallix said:

To be fair, time travel in and of itself is completely illogical, so no matter what the story is or how careful the writers are, there are bound to be some plot holes. It's just a matter of whether it fits in with the rules of the series' narrative and how much the audience is willing to suspend their disbelief.

Even then, you can still go about it in a logical manner, which Sonic Team isn't. And I wasn't trying to point out any plotholes, just stating how silly I found it that Silver constantly travels back and forth in time while accomplishing nothing.

I suppose the rules regarding Sonic's typical narrative is that there are no rules.

45 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

It does make sense if you consider the ability to alter time. If you perform actions in the present normally, then obviously the future wouldn't change, because it is progressing normally towards it's intended conclusion. However, if you alter time itself, which we already know that the Phantom Ruby can do, then the course of history would change. So this would obviously affect the future and cause it to become different than it was before.

I don't think that's much different than what I was saying before.

Imagine you have a line connecting points A to B. If Sonic's time period is point A, and Silver's is point B, and something occurs in the exact middle of the line between each point, then everything in the latter half of the line (including point B ) is going to be negatively affected (and arguably grow worse) by said event. Going by how time travel commonly works in this series, if Silver travels instantaneously from point A to point B, then when he arrives at point B it's already going to be in an apocalyptic state because the event that caused the future's current condition already occurred before Silver's chosen return point.

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The real puzzling question would be why Silver is even aware of the previous history if time was rewritten. Shouldn't his memories be rewritten as well?

This is where we start to reach grey areas regarding how time travel works, but I would honestly assume that Silver should be more worried about being wiped from existence if he returns to the future and it's a bunch of fiery ruins. Unless there's evidence of his family line existing the exact same way after Eggman's apocalyptic rule, then Silver is essentially a living paradox at that point. He derives from a timeline that no longer exists.

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But that's the problems you run into when you try to write about an impossible phenomenon like time travel. The best thing to do is ignore stuff like that unless the narrative is really dependent on every detail making logical sense.

I'm kinda surprised to see reactions like this, honestly. I thought people cared about how narratives in Sonic games were handled? I get that time travel is a fickle subject that leads to inconsistencies, but I would assume that would push people to want Sonic Team to handle said subject with more logic and care if they're going to utilize it, instead of just hand-waving it saying "Well, time travel usually doesn't make sense, so whatever."

The easiest solution to all of this is to just keep Silver in the past. He's not good at his job of essentially being a time-traveling handyman, and it keeps Sonic Team from embarrassing themselves, narrative-wise.

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Well shiiiiit, that Comic was really good! I loved Knuckles in this, finally acting like his normal self and still guarding the Master Emerald. <3 I liked his interactions with Silver too, very funny and cool to see. 

If the game has these kind of character interactions and story moments that would be SO great! 

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The thing is, there are more fictional interpretations of time-travel than you can shake a stick at, most featuring completely different rules.  It's not uncommon for changes made in the past to take some time to "catch up" with the present, even if it makes absolutely no sense, so for Silver's future to be intermittently peaceful and warlike wouldn't be without precedent.  Similarly, so far as Silver's memories go, it's an equally common trope for time-travellers' memories to be immune to changes to the timeline, because they're no longer part of the linear flow of their timeline and have been partially decoupled from strict cause and effect.  In the end, if we're assuming a single rewriteable timeline - the only context in which making changes to the past is actually worth anything - then the Grandfather Paradox indicates that any changes to the past should instantly erase the future which caused those changes, thereby removing their cause and causing them not to have happened, causing an eternal loop, so the end result of a logical approach to time-travel is that it wouldn't happen or would destroy causality if attempted.  Little wonder that fiction invents all kinds of rules to make things more interesting!  It's perfectly reasonable for Sonic as a series not to be too strict about this kind of thing - not least when it's just an excuse for Silver to show up, rather than a major element of the story.

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2 hours ago, Clewis said:

If Silver leaves for the future, and then some time after an event occurs that causes the apocalypse, Silver's future would already be in an apocalyptic state when he arrives. Silver and Sonic's respective time periods are a part of the same timeline.

That's what makes Silver constantly using time travel to influence the future so amusing. He never manages to truly fix anything about the future, because his actions in Sonic's present always end up causing Eggman/Nega/whoever to cause another apocalyptic event while he's gone. Then he essentially has to do a u-turn to fix another mess. Repeat ad infinitum because Sonic Team doesn't house very good writers.

Well, I mean, if the Solaris event was prevented, that leaves Eggman with an intact world to destroy, right? Whereas if the world was ruined by Solaris, Eggman wouldn't get the Phantom Ruby. 

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1 hour ago, Marcello said:

Honestly, just make Silver a Time Cop or something similar. And I don't mean basically make him one. Actually make him one. As in, part of a group or organization. Kinda like Legends of Tomorrow.

I love this idea, and now I want to play a Silver game where he fucks up Sonic's timeline.

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1 minute ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Well, I mean, if the Solaris event was prevented, that leaves Eggman with an intact world to destroy, right? Whereas if the world was ruined by Solaris, Eggman wouldn't get the Phantom Ruby. 

Yep! And then Eggman proceeds to cause another apocalyptic future using the Phantom Ruby, prompting Silver to have to return to the past again to fix things.

That's my point. I get that there are no consistent set of rules regarding time travel's use within a narrative, and I get that you have to turn your brain off a bit to enjoy most stories that involve a concept that doesn't currently exist. All I'm saying is that Silver constantly using time travel in an attempt to fix things has reached parody levels at this point (at least for me), and I'm surprised that it hasn't become more of an in-joke for the series (game-wise), with characters becoming annoyed that he seems to show up every other week because the future just happens to suck again.

All the other points I made about time travel is mostly because I find discussion on the subject fun. :upside_down:

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1 hour ago, ShadowSJG said:

So are Zavok and Chaos illusions then?

I think zavok is a real boy because you get the achievement in game for rockin em. 

I think everyone else is illusions though. 

 

Ya'll should have gotten they have no rules for time travel once silver kept existing.

 

Silver continuing to exist is anti logic

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1 hour ago, Clewis said:

I don't think that's much different than what I was saying before.

Imagine you have a line connecting points A to B. If Sonic's time period is point A, and Silver's is point B, and something occurs in the exact middle of the line between each point, then everything in the latter half of the line (including point B ) is going to be negatively affected (and arguably grow worse) by said event. Going by how time travel commonly works in this series, if Silver travels instantaneously from point A to point B, then when he arrives at point B it's already going to be in an apocalyptic state because the event that caused the future's current condition already occurred before Silver's chosen return point.

OK, I get what you are saying. Yeah, if that were the case then the future would already be messed up. It wouldn't be peaceful and then suddenly turn into a dystopia. However, in time travel there is often a common plot device where it takes some time for changes to the past to "catch up" with the present.

bttf-hand.jpg

Back to the Future is a very good example of this. It's not really something that makes logical sense, but it serves a narrative well. If we consider this to be true, then there was a buffer period between when Silver got back and when the world turned into a dystopia. Silver likely enjoys those periods, as he even says in Colors that in the future he comes from "the sky is blue and everyone has a smile". So that's why he stays in the future.

1 hour ago, Clewis said:

This is where we start to reach grey areas regarding how time travel works, but I would honestly assume that Silver should be more worried about being wiped from existence if he returns to the future and it's a bunch of fiery ruins. Unless there's evidence of his family line existing the exact same way after Eggman's apocalyptic rule, then Silver is essentially a living paradox at that point. He derives from a timeline that no longer exists.

That's true. But again, plot points can serve to explain it. There is a common plot point in time travel stories that certain things are meant to happen and that there is no way to prevent them from happening. Usually this rule exists to prevent time travel stories form being riddled with paradoxes. If you travel back in time, even if you try to kill your parents or prevent them from meeting, you won't be able to because you being born was meant to happen. An easy way out of any paradox. We could apply this rule to Silver as well. No matter what happens to the timeline, his birth is a fact that cannot be changed. 
 

1 hour ago, Clewis said:

I'm kinda surprised to see reactions like this, honestly. I thought people cared about how narratives in Sonic games were handled? I get that time travel is a fickle subject that leads to inconsistencies, but I would assume that would push people to want Sonic Team to handle said subject with more logic and care if they're going to utilize it, instead of just hand-waving it saying "Well, time travel usually doesn't make sense, so whatever."

The easiest solution to all of this is to just keep Silver in the past. He's not good at his job of essentially being a time-traveling handyman, and it keeps Sonic Team from embarrassing themselves, narrative-wise.

That's the thing though. Caring about narratives and ensuring every little thing makes logical sense is different. Back to the Future's time travel rules really make no sense when you stop to think about it. However, it all serves to create an exciting narrative. So long as you are not making a mystery story, a few inconsistencies are fine as long as the narrative itself is exciting. I wouldn't want any author to limit their creativity or dive into a ton of exposition just to make sure every single little thing is logical.

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Wasn't feeling the first comic, but I loved this one. Adam Bryce Thomas' art for the Archie comic never really excited me, but his work here is fantastic. It looks like he's trying to imitate Hesse or Skelly's style to be more expressive, and it's definitely working. Hope he can work on the IDW comic later.

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4 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

Back to the Future is a very good example of this. It's not really something that makes logical sense, but it serves a narrative well. If we consider this to be true, then there was a buffer period between when Silver got back and when the world turned into a dystopia. Silver likely enjoys those periods, as he even says in Colors that the future he comes from is better than the present. So that's why he stays in the future.

Yeah, I guess that would work if you're going off of BttF's rules. I love the BttF trilogy, but I don't find it to be a great jumping off point when talking about time travel since there are a few inconsistencies in its writing and I believe the whole "wave effect" concept was just something the creators admitted to hastily coming up with since it was the easiest way to explain a lot of moments that don't make a lot of sense otherwise.

Although if you're using BttF as an example, there's never a consistent moment in the trilogy where the world itself takes a while to actually change, it's only the characters involved with changing the past (ergo Marty, and I guess whatever object he's brought with him from a different time period) who seem to be affected by this slow "wave" concept. An example of this is in Part 2 when Doc and Marty travel from the future back to the past and find it completely different than before. They weren't able to enjoy their lives before the effects of Biff winning a large amount of money in the past has a large effect on the present, the present had already changed when they arrived. The same goes for later in the film when Marty returns to the present after attempting to fix the past, he doesn't have to sit around in a Biff-ruled world waiting for his influence to take effect, it just happened instantaneously.

Of course you can also point out "Why didn't the future change when future-Biff returned to his time period after giving his past-self the almanac?" and you would just have another reason why I don't think BttF is a great jumping off point for discussions regarding time travel.

22 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

That's true. But again, plot points can serve to explain it. There is a common plot point in time travel stories that certain things are meant to happen and that there is no way to prevent them from happening. Usually this rule exists to prevent time travel stories form being riddled with plot holes. If you travel back in time, even if you try to kill your parents or prevent them from meeting, you won't be able to because you being born was meant to happen. An easy way out of any paradox. We could apply this rule to Silver as well. No matter what happens to the timeline, his birth is a fact that cannot be changed. 

That would work, but it's largely convenient and I don't consider it very good writing.

26 minutes ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

That's the thing though. Caring about narratives and ensuring every little thing makes logical sense is different. Back to the Future's time travel rules really make no sense when you stop to think about it. However, it all serves to create an exciting narrative. So long as you are not making a mystery story, a few inconsistencies are fine as long as the narrative itself is exciting. I wouldn't want any author to limit their creativity or dive into a ton of exposition just to make sure every single little thing is logical.

I guess I'm of a different mind. I feel like if you can't do something in a narrative logically, then you probably shouldn't be doing it at all. BttF's plot is largely based around time travel, but you can tell the directors put a lot of thought into how it works from a logical, in-universe standpoint, even if the result still contains some plot-holes here and there.

Sonic Team obviously doesn't care enough to put a lot of thought into the types of elements they try to include in their narratives (instead they're worried about shit like the differences between Earth and "Sonic's World"), so it makes me wonder why they even bothered to include a character like Silver in this game in the first place. It's not like his use of time travel will have any real effect on the game's plot (even he doesn't know what caused the future to become ruined), so why is he even here?

I guess the answer is fanservice.

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I definitely like the Knuckles and Silver comic a lot better than the first. More actually happened, and it bothered having continuity in it, like acknowledging Silver is still from the future, and that Knuckles is still a guardian. I thought it was a fun comic. I hope the IDW comics are a lot like this, where it keeps the focus on the characters from the games. 

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