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Sonic Forces: Infinite Unmasked (SPOILERS/Speculation)


The Deleter
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He could be from a distant past, a knight /warrior of some sort that was turned evil as a sacrifice and sealed on the Ruby.

He could fit on the Archie universe really well if that's true. And Black Knight.

Though he is also he could be from the present though, since Shadow DLC will have Infinite's origins.

 

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1 minute ago, Joseph Henry said:

He could be from a distant past, a knight /warrior of some sort that was turned evil as a sacrifice and sealed on the Ruby.

How would this even fit in with anything else in the game? Like, what purpose would there be in him being some ancient warrior?

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7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

How would this even fit in with anything else in the game? Like, what purpose would there be in him being some ancient warrior?

Phantom Ruby I guess? I don't know.

I'm just speculating, he still could be just the Avatar's friend that uses a sword for some reason.

 

(Maybe he could tie into Titanic Monarch with all medieval stuff?)

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13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I think he's basically an unironic Coldsteel the Hedgehog and that this is a real thing that is actually happening is why other fanbases laugh at us.

Gurren Lagann is one of the most critically acclaimed anime action series out there, and it embraces it's craziness like a madman

At one point it shifts from being about a serious political drama to the moon flat out attacking them

No one laughs at that, do they?
 

Not saying that won't happen here, it will for sure :V but I don't think this kind of crazy is entirely wrong for an action series to peruse, honestly...

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

How would this even fit in with anything else in the game? Like, what purpose would there be in him being some ancient warrior?

That is a point, and I still hate that they're wasting the "Eggman took over" plotline on this potentially, but it probably has just about as much relevance as Chaos from Adventure, or Gerald and Gun in SA2 if he is getting this focus. The ruby is the mediator here, so we'll have to see how that's handled at this point...

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Just now, The Deleter said:

Gurren Lagann is one of the most critically acclaimed anime action series out there, and it embraces it's craziness like a madman

There's good crazy and there's bad crazy.

Like, you can take a ridiculous idea and run with it, pushing it to more and more absurd levels, and if you know what you're doing, it can work.

But this, this isn't that. This is just, seemingly unironically, doing a thing that everyone mocks you for. It's a bundle of tired cliches without any apparent awareness.

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Do you honestly think everyone would have just been nice to us and totally tolerant if Infinite wasn't a part of this game? Anyone petty enough to hate on/fuck with Sonic fans on principle isn't the type to be swayed by the games being good or bad. It hasn't happened with every other good Sonic game since 1994, after all. Since when do we care what they think, anyway?

Even so, this would be an incredibly delayed reaction. If anyone was going to get upset about Infinite, the time would be back in June, not now. 

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3 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Do you honestly think everyone would have just been nice to us and totally tolerant if Infinite wasn't a part of this game? Anyone petty enough to hate on/fuck with Sonic fans on principle isn't the type to be swayed by the games being good or bad. It hasn't happened with every other good Sonic game since 1994, after all. Since when do we care what they think, anyway?

Even so, this would be an incredibly delayed reaction. If anyone was going to get upset about Infinite, the time would be back in June, not now. 

It's just more fodder. 

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1 minute ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Do you honestly think everyone would have just been nice to us and totally tolerant if Infinite wasn't a part of this game? Anyone petty enough to hate on/fuck with Sonic fans on principle isn't the type to be swayed by the games being good or bad. It hasn't happened with every other good Sonic game since 1994, after all.

I don't mean that Infinite alone is why the series/fanbase gets shit, but that the kind of things that led to Infinite are why it/we get shit.

And obviously there would always be people giving shit because everyone gets shit but the level of shit we get is above average and this kind of shit is the reason.

Also, unrelated: my current guess for Infinite's species is fennec fox.

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Just now, Diogenes said:

I don't mean that Infinite alone is why the series/fanbase gets shit, but that the kind of things that led to Infinite are why it/we get shit.

So? Not having Infinite isn't going to fix those things, the same way Mania being great hasn't stopped the 06 circlejerk. 

Just now, Diogenes said:

And obviously there would always be people giving shit because everyone gets shit but the level of shit we get is above average and this kind of shit is the reason.

No...no it's not. Sonic's reputation problems stem from poor game quality, not edgy villains. If Shadow the hedgehog had been a really good game in terms of design, control, pacing and structure, (and also not shat on it's title character's personality) but still had Black Doom as the villain, I guarantee it wouldn't hold much worse a place than Sonic Heroes or even SA2. Just because you associate the series' problems with villains you don't like doesn't mean they're the source.

5 minutes ago, ShroomZed said:

Okay? Like Jesus Christ of course people would still make fun of Sonic but they'll use Infinite for a good laugh. It's not complicated. 

....And? So what? Again, why do we care what they think? If it's not Infinite it'd be something else.

 

>>>fennec is a good guess, btw.

 

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Just now, Shaddy the guy said:

So? Not having Infinite isn't going to fix those things, the same way Mania being great hasn't stopped the 06 circlejerk.

This isn't complicated man, if this series stops doing dumb shit for long enough people aren't going to give it shit all the time. Yeah there will still be some assholes hollering about '06 but this isn't about eliminating all assholes it's about them not being repeatedly proven right.

Just now, Shaddy the guy said:

No...no it's not. Sonic's reputation problems stem from poor game quality, not edgy villains.

Both actually. And other things.

Just now, Shaddy the guy said:

If Shadow the hedgehog had been a really good game in terms of design, control, pacing and structure, (and also not shat on it's title character's personality) but still had Black Doom as the villain, I guarantee it wouldn't hold much worse a place than Sonic Heroes or even SA2.

I mean that's the thing, that's the problem. That's what Infinite is, embarrassing edgy shit, the bad fan character half of us made when we were younger except actually a real thing in a real game.

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In my opinion, Forces was already fated to bring about this kind of reaction when infinite as a concept was created in the first place. I think that that was a severe misstep, especially with the premise it has, and the series would definitely be better off if he didn't exist in the first place, for sure. Just like the Werehog, black Knight, or the like. Another bad decision.

But since he does, though?

Why not go that extra mile to embrace the craziness, and try to justify it with its own brand of insane?

 

SA2 for example. It's a relatively divisive game nowadays, but people loved it back when it came out, if only due to the craziness. Jumping out a helicopter, skateboarding down San Francisco on a sheet of metal, and running away from a three-story government truck in their attempts to contain him, all with a cheesy rock song playing in the background.

What would have been a gritty reboot full of government plots and drama, is an absolute madhouse instead, and people absolutely loved it thanks to those factors alone.

 

If this was an argument to remove Infinite entirely, or change his premise in villain archetype, I'd fully agree with that. But since we already have to put up with this concept, instead of stripping it down to his most bland and boring essentials for the sake of it, why not flesh out the insanity for the sake of it instead? Why doesn't it work here? It worked for SA2 to a degree...

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7 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

I can't agree with this though. The Sonic fanbase gets crap either because of poor quality games or just disdain for Sonic's cute character with attitude premise. If all the games looked as cartoony as Lost World you'd be hearing folks say Sonic is just for babies or something. You don't reason with a bully that wants to laugh at something you like, you realize how pathetic someone has to be to spend their time making fun of others and you live and let live. Every new Sonic game will have new folks asking why the franchise hasn't died yet, Mania included. Every character besides Sonic is said to be garbage, until you just have people saying Sonic himself is garbage, Classic included.

This is what I'm getting at. Anyone who could be turned off by this sort of mentality alone wasn't going to buy Forces in the first place.

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7 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Then shouldn't there be some catharsis in destroying that when it's personified as a villain? If everything has to be so complicated, why is it only when it lets the game look worse?

I'd maybe agree with you if the game portrayed him as clearly being ridiculous and a joke, but so far all we've gotten is stuff "attempting" to show how cool he is, including cringy music video and trailers showing unironically how badass he is. 

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9 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

SA2 for example. It's a relatively divisive game nowadays, but people loved it back when it came out, if only due to the craziness. Jumping out a helicopter, skateboarding down San Francisco on a sheet of metal, and running away from a three-story government truck in their attempts to contain him, all with a cheesy rock song playing in the background.

What would have been a gritty reboot full of government plots and drama, is an absolute madhouse instead, and people absolutely loved it thanks to those factors alone.

There's a thing as being serious, and being so serious that it loops back around to being funny. And that has two versions, of which is unintentional. That would be games like Shadow the Hedgehog.

Then there's games that do it intentionally.

Like Sonic Forces.

Infinite has been done so seriously and played so straight, it's hard to take seriously. All of his lines we've heard are hard to take seriously. "The little blue saviour...", "You may call me... Infinite", "I will teach you fear... Then pain." His theme song is so serious, and similar to Linkin Park's style, it ends up being tongue-in-cheek to the edgy 2000s music. His own trailer starts with a parody of the old edgy AMVs, for goodness sake.

Everything about him is played seriously and straight. And that's in a cheesy game that even has a theme song about friendship. I think he's not supposed to be taken seriously. And I'm okay with that.

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2 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

In my opinion, Forces was already fated to bring about this kind of reaction when infinite as a concept was created in the first place. I think that that was a severe misstep, especially with the premise it has, and the series would definitely be better off if he didn't exist in the first place, for sure. Just like the Werehog, black Knight, or the like. Another bad decision.

But since he does, though?

Why not go that extra mile to embrace the craziness, and try to justify it with its own brand of insane?

I mean, maybe if they actually did that it could deflect some of the criticism, but...they're not doing that. At least I see no evidence of it.

Like if his sword was twice as big as he was and also a lightsaber I might believe they were going for intentional absurdity but it's just a regular shitty sword for a regular shitty fan character.

2 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

SA2 for example. It's a relatively divisive game nowadays, but people loved it back when it came out, if only due to the craziness. Jumping out a helicopter, skateboarding down San Francisco on a sheet of metal, and running away from a three-story government truck in their attempts to contain him, all with a cheesy rock song playing in the background.

What would have been a gritty reboot full of government plots and drama, is an absolute madhouse instead, and people absolutely loved it thanks to those factors alone.

Some people loved it. Other people hated it. And you say yourself it's divisive now, so even if everyone had loved it back then it's not a lasting solution.

And like, compare to ShtH. It's a game where your angsty gun-toting hedgehog protagonist can try to assassinate the president, clearly far beyond SA2 in absurdity...but it's hated for it. Its absurdity, its craziness, only gets it some amount of ironic enjoyment because it's so far beyond the pale that it's laughable.

6 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

And you really think that stems from this guy?

Okay listen for a moment: I do not, in fact, believe that Infinite is the root cause of why people don't like Sonic.

What I do believe is that Infinite is the most recent manifestation of one of the reasons that people don't like Sonic.

Are we on the same page now?

6 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

No. It's about making good games.

Part of making good games is not making terrible characters.

6 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Then shouldn't there be some catharsis in destroying that when it's personified as a villain?

If it tried to be a parody, maybe. But it's not. Not enough to actually work.

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14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Okay listen for a moment: I do not, in fact, believe that Infinite is the root cause of why people don't like Sonic.

What I do believe is that Infinite is the most recent manifestation of one of the reasons that people don't like Sonic.

Are we on the same page now?

No, because the majority of people who dislike Sonic do so because of bad games and bad games alone, not the occasional silly villain. In fact I guarantee that if every bad Sonic game with a bad story was actually fun to play, the franchise wouldn't be that much less popular than it was before Shadow and 06 came out (okay, maybe the 06 kiss would still have done damage).

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Part of making good games is not making terrible characters.

Nice meme. It'd almost be believable if the most popular video game franchise in existence was not made up of three characters with literally no personality whatsoever, acting out the same routine for thirty years.

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If it tried to be a parody, maybe. But it's not. Not enough to actually work.

How is a parody better than the real thing? It'd be way funnier to see the real Donald Trump get hit in the face with a shoe than someone dressed as Trump for a comedy routine.

 

Anyway, in regards to something other than pointless bickering, why is one side of Infinite's helmet blacked out when both his eyes function normally?

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1 minute ago, Shaddy the guy said:

No, because people dislike Sonic because of bad games and bad games alone, not the occasional silly villain. In fact I guarantee that if every bad Sonic game with a bad story was actually fun to play, the franchise wouldn't be that much less popular than it was before Shadow and 06 came out (okay, maybe the 06 kiss would still have done damage).

Infinite being a villain isn't actually relevant at all, I don't know why you've latched onto that so hard. And again, it's one reason among several, it's not the only reason, it's not even the biggest reason. But if you're capable of understanding that sometimes writing can be bad, and that people don't like bad things, then you should be able to understand why terrible characters make people look down on the series.

1 minute ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Nice meme.

What in the fuck are you talking about? How is "have good characters instead of bad ones" a meme?

Quote

It'd almost be believable if the most popular video game franchise in existence was not made up of three characters with literally no personality whatsoever, acting out the same routine for thirty years.

Whatever bitterness you have about, I'm assuming Mario, has no actual bearing here.

1 minute ago, Shaddy the guy said:

How is a parody better than the real thing?

Because "the real thing" is just a bad character in a bad story. Beating him isn't framed as punishment/justice for him being a bad character, it's just the hero beating a boring, poorly written villain. There's no catharsis in that.

13 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Anyway, in regards to something other than pointless bickering, why is one side of Infinite's helmet blacked out when both his eyes function normally?

Who says they both work normally? He could be blind in that eye.

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