Sonic Forces: Infinite Unmasked (SPOILERS/Speculation)

[Shadowlax]

32 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

I can't agree with this though. The Sonic fanbase gets crap either because of poor quality games or just disdain for Sonic's cute character with attitude premise. If all the games looked as cartoony as Lost World you'd be hearing folks say Sonic is just for babies or something. You don't reason with a bully that wants to laugh at something you like, you realize how pathetic someone has to be to spend their time making fun of others and you live and let live. Every new Sonic game will have new folks asking why the franchise hasn't died yet, Mania included. Every character besides Sonic is said to be garbage, until you just have people saying Sonic himself is garbage, Classic included.

I'm sorry you're embarrassed that this is part of Sonic's identity. But plenty of people are excited about this because what Sonic is means different things for different people. Everyone in this fanbase deserves a turn to celebrate.

I agree with this

The only problem I have with infinite is that along with what... the actual quality of the gameplay looks he looks like he's built to not last. A no body who gets his power from a gem, and probably looses that to fight the gem in the end. I kinda want sonic team to create a villain, that can also be around and not just eggman that's actually like... .cool. This game isn't that game.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Infinite being a villain isn't actually relevant at all, I don't know why you've latched onto that so hard. And again, it's one reason among several, it's not the only reason, it's not even the biggest reason. But if you're capable of understanding that sometimes writing can be bad, and that people don't like bad things, then you should be able to understand why terrible characters make people look down on the series.

Because your so-called "terrible characters" are so far-removed and so far down the list that saying "this is why people hate Sonic" is like saying people hate suicides because of the paperwork when setting up the funeral.

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Whatever bitterness you have about, I'm assuming Mario, has no actual bearing here.

Oh, really? Then please tell me why, if having such amazing characterization all the time is so important, a series with literally none ever makes more money than Sonic? Than tons of other series with tons of great characters?

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Because "the real thing" is just a bad character in a bad story. Beating him isn't framed as punishment/justice for him being a bad character, it's just the hero beating a boring, poorly written villain. There's no catharsis in that.

In what way? How is the idea of removing a source of something you dislike so alien to you? Hell, how do you even know this? We've even got official examples of this game and villain being marketed as edgy. Obviously at least some people internally aren't taking this stuff seriously, I'm sure as hell not, so why are you? Contrarianism?

9 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I agree with this

The only problem I have with infinite is that along with what... the actual quality of the gameplay looks he looks like he's built to not last. A no body who gets his power from a gem, and probably looses that to fight the gem in the end. I kinda want sonic team to create a villain, that can also be around and not just eggman that's actually like... .cool. This game isn't that game.

None...none of that is gameplay-related.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Shaddy the guy said:

 

None...none of that is gameplay-related.

Its not, but what I mean is, the gameplay looks not great, and the villain looks not great. So he might go into the " he's dead jimbo " even harder than mephilies

[Shaddy Zaphod]

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Its not, but what I mean is, the gameplay looks not great, and the villain looks not great. So he might go into the " he's dead jimbo " even harder than mephilies

Well definitely not as bad as Mephiles, because literally no Sonic game has or ever will approach 06's quality, but the gameplay design wouldn't determine the character's power source within the game they're introduced. If this game is received poorly, they probably won't bring Infinite back, because PURGE ANYTHING ASSOCIATED WITH GAMES WE DON'T LIKE, but if it's received well, it depends on the character's own popularity. After all if SA2 did well but people didn't love Shadow, they probably wouldn't bring him back.

 

I do think the series needs more recurring villains that aren't the ridiculously terrible Eggman Nega. Seriously, complain about him before Infinite. He doesn't even have cheese-factor.

[Shadowlax]

3 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Well definitely not as bad as Mephiles, because literally no Sonic game has or ever will approach 06's quality, but the gameplay design wouldn't determine the character's power source within the game they're introduced. If this game is received poorly, they probably won't bring Infinite back, because PURGE ANYTHING ASSOCIATED WITH GAMES WE DON'T LIKE, but if it's received well, it depends on the character's own popularity. After all if SA2 did well but people didn't love Shadow, they probably wouldn't bring him back.

 

I do think the series needs more recurring villains that aren't the ridiculously terrible Eggman Nega. Seriously, complain about him before Infinite. He doesn't even have cheese-factor.

I don't think he could even come back, unless he's nerfed if his powers are what I think they are some form of curruption/copy making, you can't have some guy who can do that just running around. That said though I think they will just make the Gem the bad thing, because cliche. 

They would have to nerf him hard, but if you nerf him, you make his powers... kinda worthless. Like he's built to die, like he's built for the gem to be the bad thing and for various other characters to pick up the gem and if sega chooses to bring that idea back.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think he could even come back, unless he's nerfed if his powers are what I think they are some form of curruption/copy making, you can't have some guy who can do that just running around. That said though I think they will just make the Gem the bad thing, because cliche. 

Okay, but you were saying that that theory, and his likelihood of not returning, is a product of the game design, which doesn't make any sense.

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

They would have to nerf him hard, but if you nerf him, you make his powers... kinda worthless. Like he's built to die, like he's built for the gem to be the bad thing and for various other characters to pick up the gem and if sega chooses to bring that idea back.

Ok, but we don't even know if any of this stuff is true, and regardless they probably aren't bringing any of this stuff back.

EDIT:

In other news, this image is making the rounds on Reddit.

What are you doing, Adam.

[DiamondX]

39 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

 

EDIT:

In other news, this image is making the rounds on Reddit.

What are you doing, Adam.

No, no, nononononono.

No!

[KHCast]

1 hour ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Oh, really? Then please tell me why, if having such amazing characterization all the time is so important, a series with literally none ever makes more money than Sonic? Than tons of other series with tons of great characters?

I mean, everyone brings up how shallow and shit most Mario stories are, but they have other good qualities to their games, and have provided a consistent amount of enjoyment with little to complain or bring up flaw wise. Having shitty characterization or a bad plot is more forgivable in a situation like that. Sonic, is not that. So the problems are more glaring and obvious when you're pointing out problems in the series. I don't see why we're trying this tired comparisons anymore when there are clear reasons for why Mario is doing better than Sonic

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Mario is more consistently good than Sonic, I'm just saying that acting like the plot or characterization is, in any way, why most people who hate the series do, when Mario has always gotten away with nothing, is just silly. At the very least, it's low-priority on what needs fixing with the series, above actually getting a consistent gameplay style that works the way it's supposed to.

[Dr. Mechano]

What bothers me about Infinite is that he seems to be a completely humorless bore.

You want me to care about the villain at all? You have to make him at least a little likable, especially if you're trying to pull some sympathetic backstory with him.

Eggman, in most incarnations, isn't really a terribly deep or sympathetic character - and yet I still find him a million times more relatable than this guy because he's at least capable of making me smile. 

I'm not saying Infinite needs to be a clown, but I am saying that being a 100% dark, serious, edgy character without any levity or traits to make him feel human or relatable is boring. 

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

1 hour ago, Shaddy the guy said:

 

EDIT:

In other news, this image is making the rounds on Reddit.

What are you doing, Adam.

Oh.

ooohhhh boy.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Oh, really? Then please tell me why, if having such amazing characterization all the time is so important, a series with literally none ever makes more money than Sonic? Than tons of other series with tons of great characters?

I take exception to this.

Mario has characterization, but it's not a top priority - in the platformers at least. (Though even there, it's not absent. Sunshine, Galaxy, and especially Odyssey are brimming with personality.)

The Mario RPGs (sans Sticker Star and Color Splash, because those games are garbage) are, in my humble opinion, far better at storytelling and characterization than any 3D Sonic game. In addition to having a firmer grasp of comedy, they have a firmer grasp of drama too, which I'll list examples of under a spoiler tag below:

 

Spoiler

- Luigi's love for Mario forcing his terrified limbs to move in Superstar Saga, when Mario is poisoned and only Luigi can brave the deadly monster-infested ruins to find an antidote.

- Bobbery, a depressed widower sailor, tearfully reading his wife's final letter to him in Thousand Year Door

- Bowser putting his own life on the line to save Peach's in Super Paper Mario.

 

Y'know, just to name a few.

 

Characterization may not be Mario's top priority, but I daresay it's still better at it than Sonic is when it actually bothers with it.

 

Which brings us back to Infinite; A lot of the villains in these Mario RPGs are of the very serious, global (even universal) threat variety. But they manage to have well-defined, likable personalities. Characters like Count Bleck, Dimentio, Fawful, Sir Grodus, etc. These characters were imposing threats, but they weren't bland one-note characters whose entire personalities were how powerful and evil they were. They felt like people! And my issue with Infinite is that he just doesn't at all.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Disagree entirely. I don't get any personality from Mario or anyone else in the main series, excluding Rosalina...'s backstory (the character herself doesn't really even emote).

 

And if we're allowing spinoffs to take hold, I can point to Secret Rings, Black Knight and even stuff like Chronicles at being better for actual interactions, regardless of the game's actual quality. At least for the protagonists. Mario is still stiff as a board in the RPGs.

[Clewis]

22 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

In what way? How is the idea of removing a source of something you dislike so alien to you? Hell, how do you even know this? We've even got official examples of this game and villain being marketed as edgy. Obviously at least some people internally aren't taking this stuff seriously, I'm sure as hell not, so why are you? Contrarianism?

Are you honestly suggesting that taking elements of Forces at face value, and choosing to criticize them accordingly is an example of contrarianism? I'm not sure if you're aware, but Forces isn't a self-aware piece of satire, and Infinite isn't an intentionally over-the-top parody of "edgy" characters. Just because some members of SoA's marketing team have been attempting damage control (largely because they know a decent amount of the western market is just going to point and laugh at whatever content Sonic Team expects people to take seriously) doesn't change this. So just because you've decided to enjoy this game "ironically", or whatever, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with someone acknowledging from a serious standpoint how flawed or stupid a character like Infinite is currently coming across as being.

Also

47 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Nice meme.

Don't do this. It just makes you sound like an underage 4chan user.

[Crazy_Diamond]

So this is actually a very interesting theory that I think has some weight. If you look at Infinite's theme, a lot of it makes sense under the assumption that was is a warrior of some kind.

Quote

I am the last one that's standing,
Don't try to stand in my way,
Cause I've been up against better,
Just take a look at my face

What really stands out here is the first lyric. The thing I instantly thought of was that there was some grand war, and that Infinite was the only one to survive it. He had some sort of important cause he was fighting for, and he's the last one standing. The third and fourth lyrics are also very interesting. It suggest that whatever he got the scar from was more powerful than the Avatar/Sonic.

Quote

And after all this time, you're back for more
(I won't stop until they know my name)
So I'll take what's mine and start this war
(I'm coming at you like a tidal wave)

Nearly everything here is interesting. The first lyric seems to suggest familiarity with either Sonic or the Avatar. There is are very few ways to make sense of this. The first thing I thought of was that Infinite somehow remembers the events of Mania. As he has the Phantom Ruby Prototype as part of him, he somehow inherited memories of Sonic Mania from that, and so he is referring to the battle with Sonic in Mania. The second is that the Avatar and Infinite remember each other. I think this is the more likely theory. If that is the case, then this song is addressing the Avatar, not Sonic. That would also make sense, given that Fist Bump is a song sung by Sonic to the Avatar, Infinite's theme being sung from him to the Avatar is a logical step. The second lyric is pretty simple. Infinite wants his reach to extend so far that everyone knows his name, and he won't stop fighting until then. The third lyric is probably about the Phantom Ruby. He sees it as his, so he will take it (maybe even take it into himself) and start Eggman's war. Perhaps the reason he joined Eggman in the first place was for the Phantom Ruby?

Quote

When everything you know has come and gone,
(You are at your lowest, I am rising higher)
Only scars remain of who I was
(What I find in the ashes, you lose in the fire)
When there's no one left to carry on,
(This is an illusion, open up your eyes and...)
This pain (persists),
I can't (resist),
But that's what it takes to be infinite

I think the first two lines definitely makes sense under the assumption that he is speaking to the Avatar. The Avatar's home is likely destroyed and he has nothing left, and so he is fearful and at his lowest point as Infinite is rising in power. The next two lyrics seem to suggest the Infinite has given up his old life and identity in pursuit of something that he "finds in the ashes" and which causes the Avatar to "lose in the fire". Again, I think that this something is the Phantom Ruby. The next lyric again hammers the point that Infinite has some sort of duty (perhaps as a warrior) and that he is the only one that can carry it on. The illusion thing is of course related to the Phantom Ruby, but we don't know in exactly what way yet. The last three lyrics suggest that Infinite is being subject to pain, but he bears through it because that's what it takes for his power.

Quote

So look around you
And tell me what you really see
You live a lie
And that's the difference in you and me
I have the power,
Let me show you what it's all about
It's only me and you - who is gonna save you now?

So this suggests a couple things. Apparently the Avatar lives a lie, but Infinite sees the truth. He says he has the power and that he'll show the Avatar what it's all about. So Infinite's power is in some way related to a "truth" that only he can see. My theory is he willingly gives up who he was before in order to obtain the Phantom Ruby's power and see its "truth" (or to fulfill his cause). I think that in order to do this, he sides with Eggman out of his own free will. He knew the Avatar before, but the two broke off their relationship a long time ago, perhaps due to a disagreement. Maybe the Avatar didn't want Infinite to be a warrior, and that was what caused them to separate. But that's just my own pet theory based on the lyrics. If what I'm saying is true, then it could be pretty interesting, but the lyrics are pretty vague so I could have gotten a ton of shit wrong.

Spoiler

Infinite put his own logo on his shoe. What a nerd lol.

 

[Dr. Mechano]

5 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Disagree entirely. I don't get any personality from Mario or anyone else in the main series, excluding Rosalina...'s backstory (the character herself doesn't really even emote).

Nah, even in the platformers, Bowser's got plenty of personality - especially in the ones that bother having dialogue, like Sunshine, where he was a total goof of a dad. (Bowser is consistently the best character though, so that's no surprise.)

 

I mean, again at the topic at hand, I'm not saying Infinite needs to be a character like Bowser or Eggman. He's obviously a different kind of villain. But I do still think some humanization or foibles to make him relatable would go a long way.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Oh, sure. I'm not trying to say Infinite is great or whatever, just that this isn't an issue specific to Forces, hell specific to Infinite, nor really the important issue with Sonic's reputation.

Honestly I'm hoping the guy's best aspects will be the way others react to him, like Eggman or Shadow. That's where the money is with this guy. Eggy keeps up his goofy shtick while this edgelord is hamming it up, could make for good comedy. Certainly better than what Lost World offered 

[Dr. Mechano]

13 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Oh, sure. I'm not trying to say Infinite is great or whatever, just that this isn't an issue specific to Forces, hell specific to Infinite, nor really the important issue with Sonic's reputation.

Honestly I'm hoping the guy's best aspects will be the way others react to him, like Eggman or Shadow. That's where the money is with this guy. Eggy keeps up his goofy shtick while this edgelord is hamming it up, could make for good comedy. Certainly better than what Lost World offered 

I mean, Lost World had Eggman punch down a wall with his bare hands, save both his enemies' lives, and still come out on top as the final boss - wise-cracking and joking all along the way. So I honestly liked the writing of Lost World... er, for the most part. Tails was terrible in that game. Uncharacteristically whiny without a particularly earned justification for it.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Yeah, I guess that's what I mostly associate Lost World with. But in general, Lost World has everyone face a nearly-apocalyptic scenario and has no sense of tension whatsoevern until like the second-to-last level so eh. Forces is definitely better selling the weight of it's conflict.

[CleverSonicUsername]

Trade that ~sick blade~ for an uzi that he cocks like a shotgun and I'm back in.

 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Another speculation thread, another debate over quality. If all someone has to say is "I like it/don't like it," then how about they just make that one post and then move on to something else?

Personally, I'm interested in seeing more about Infinite. All this unmasking confirms is that he's not a robot. Need to see more. 

See how easy that was?

[StaticMania]

It wasn't easy at all...I'm just guessing.

 

But if he's not a robot, that's neat.

[SonicLegends]

And what do you know while yes he's gripping his sword it's in that way like a fist bump.

Also to those that wondered which DBZ character he is closest to I would probably have to go with and say Janemba. XD

[Gabz Girl]

I’m so intrigued by the backstory of Infinite despite his edgy fan character persona, that I really hope they don’t screw it up.

If he has an edgy personality and/or dark, tragic past at least make him a sympathetic and sometimes even witty character. This is why I liked Shadow so much in SA2, and if they can make him like Shadow then I’d be totally cool with him. I don’t want another Monster of the Week (though tbf we haven’t had one in years!).

As for what type of animal Infinite is...I thought at first a bat because of his similarity to the Pokémon Noivern, but he has a long tail so I’m gonna say a fox! 

[SSF1991]

Man, I haven't seen this much story included in a Sonic game in a loooong time. Not since Black Knight, anyway. Good quality gameplay or not, the story for Sonic Forces is making me very curious. The fact that they're putting this much into just Infinite alone is crazy.