Sonic Forces - Space Port Gameplay

[superman43]

Do you know what is the biggest difference between Mania and Forces ? Besides level design, gameplay and all other stuff...

 

Mania: Minimalistic marketing, shown exactly what was needed (2 new zones, from 5, but still... renewed zones... 1st and 2nd in game order + music from the 6th one (mid-game climax stage))

Forces: Huge but awful marketing, first shown remixed zone was ! Classic Sonic´s Green Hill (a little bit bad choice) ! And it did worse than Mania or Gens beforehand. That´s what was first thing done wrong. Avatar gameplay... well, platforming with need to be careful about background. 

We don´t have any idea about the level order, but that can be deemed negative as well as positive.

Bosses... not really entertaining... Eggman using old tricks, Infinite waiting for hits and making blurry vision. Neat.

Yeah, I just cannot see what is actually good. Space Port ? Nah. 70% automation. Thank god for low-end laptop. 

EDIT: Or Casino Forest ? It´s too easy with no enemies and few spikeballs as in Sonic CD´s Collision Chaos. And the Sonic 4-alike music for Classic Sonic doesn´t help. If Sonic Team told Jun not to use Sonic 4 drums it would be a mega song, at par with Mania. Now it´s just meh.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

20 hours ago, LongcrierCat said:

You know what I don't appreciate right now here in the reactions to Sonic Forces? The use of hyperbole that's been going around from people who don't like the game. 

Okay, look. I know it doesn't look that great but that's still an opinion. Are there people overblowing the game as being good? Sure. But there's still something of a level of interaction regardless of how little there is. But I'm also feeling like we haven't yet nailed down what it is about this game and its genre that would clarify why the game is being designed this way. This is a cinematic platformer.

_{(You know. Like Another World/Heart of the Alien.)}

 

What this means is that it's focused more on telling the story it's about. There's some interaction still but it's primarily focused on telling the story. 

So what does this mean? Sonic Forces is mostly about its story while the gameplay is the vehicle to tell the story. The game hinges on the story and the cinematics that drive it. And while this is linear even by Sonic game standards it's not wrong by cinematic platformer standards. 

It may not be your cup of tea, but I'm not going to fault the people who enjoy it because it certainly has its place. What place it has in Sonic can be debated but videogames have been in between the cinematic and the interactive for some time. This was bound to happen. 

I mean yes. I'd love a more interactive Sonic game, don't get me wrong. But linearity in games has never been as huge a problem as it has been lately perceived among players. Crash Bandicoot made a killing off of being a linear 3D platformer with minor detours through Bonus Areas and hidden areas that would show up on subsequent playthroughs via earning crystals. That and in retrospect Crash Bandicoot is a pretty blatant Sonic Knockoff (Animal fights roboticist/scientist for crystals? The third game is even about time travel and that's far from subtly being Sonic CD) but it sure was a really good one I'll say. It sure was a lot more fun than Bubsy until Sonic Adventure came around. It was a 2D game shaped in a 3D mold. 

And you know? Critics still really love Crash Bandicoot with the N-Sane Trilogy release. 

So I want to know. What if you're wrong? What if the critics actually like Sonic Forces and it does well? What happens if this game proves to be a success instead of a failure? There will be no lessons to learn if they succeed. Failure is the best teacher after all. I'm not saying this will happen. I'm saying if it does happen and it very well could. Because as much as gamers have a fetish for challenge and difficulty you know what performs better?

Accessibility. 

And this game sure looks accessible. And its because of technical gameplay simplicity. It may not be hard but it's accessible and that matters more over challenge. 

Though. Those software problems of load times and poor graphics sure will hurt the Switch version of the game. Point still stands. 

It''s easy to argue about design. I don't think of this game as high art but I do think it shows competence at appealing to a lot of the want for a storied Sonic game. Well you have it now. I look forward to the story but I think that's going to be it for me since I kind of lost the Sonic Comics and have to wait until April (or tomorrow for our next installment of the Sonic Forces Prequel). 

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Tl;dr: The game is cinematic. The specifics of this sub genre justify its design and the complaints are possibly overblown. It will be mediocre at worst. And if that sounds like Sonic Team won't fail this time and have to reevaluate their design to you then you're free to worry and make an open proposal about Sonic and how it could be instead of arguing with each other. 

Even though I'm definitely a so-called "Classic fan", this is a pretty good post and I agree. 

And I agree simply because, as I've stated elsewhere, I think Sonic Team is testing the waters for a different philosophy going forward. Once the game releases and we get sales numbers and reception news, we'll know soon where SEGA will take the franchise next. But it is entirely possible that this game will attract a new generation of gamers who favor light gameplay and heavy cinematic elements. The Classic style will always exist even if on a small scale but if Forces proves to be popular, I'd bet on its like being the primary vehicle for Sonic going forward. Which, of course would disappoint me quite a bit, and my dreams for a "Sonic 3 inspired 3D game". But that would simply mean that it is finally time for fans like me to move on, and patron a franchise that caters to our tastes, even if a different genre. It would stink, given how many years I've been a diehard fan but it would be the truth. A successful game in the fashion of Forces mean that Sonic Team does not have to specifically cater to traditional Sonic fans any longer, which would be a big relief for them since they're clearly not the Yuji Naka/Hirokazu Yasuhara/Naoto Ohshima led Sonic Team of the 90s and do not understand the gameplay appeal of traditional Sonic games anyway.

The market is king and will decide the future for Sonic. Not the diehards. We keep the series alive but the general audience makes it grow.

 

(If that post seemed at all depressing, just remember that Sonic Mania has already done very well in sales and reception, so traditional Sonic games are not likely to disappear anytime soon even if Forces is a surprise hit. )

[Dreadknux]

I don’t really understand this whole ‘cinematic’ and ‘story’ conversation. Sonic Forces’ story doesn’t seem to be all that great. It looks like a re-run of Sonic Generations with a Mephiles thrown in. I don’t think the inclusion of Avatar makes the plot feel any more or less interesting, if I’m being honest.

Sonic Adventure 2 had a cinematic story, and that:

A. Made sense, even if it was following a million and one Hollywood movie tropes

B. Didn’t come at the expense of the game’s overall level design quality and action itself (regardless of what you think of Knuckles and Rouge’s bunk treasure hunting stages; quality was there but the basic idea was just a misfire)

C. Wasn’t a cinematic platformer.

Sonic Forces is not a cinematic platformer, it’s a Sonic the Hedgehog game, and it has been marketed no differently from any other Sonic game so there is no reason to think that this is intended to be designed as some kind of weird spin-off. It’s also a huge reach to suggest that this game is being designed for people who are into adventure games like Another World. There is no suggestion that SEGA or Sonic Team is building a game for an audience that sits outside of its core base like that.

I think we’re all falling into the trap of trying to find excuses for this game, whether we like the look of it or not, in an attempt to avoid hurting the feelings of people who might be excited about it.

That was lowkey what the Sonic Cycle was really about; not the bickering per se, but the people trying to meet in the middle, making reasons why sub-par projects (ie. Sonic 06, Black Knight) might actually be good in some way (but still distancing themselves away from the game on a personal level). It creates a false sense of balance that sets up half the fan base for disappointment when a bad game finally releases, and sets up the other half of the fan base to gloat about it.

I’m not suggesting we should rail on the guys who are genuinely excited about this game - to each their own - but to go after those who aren’t impressed with it does nobody any favours.

[Dee Dude]

A "re-run of Generations"? Because Classic happens to appear?

No offense but did you even watch any of the trailers? It's story is literally anything but Gens.

There's war, action, adventure and high stakes, hell, even the side cast is relevant in the story.

I don't see any cutscenes with Sonic and Tails and their counterparts are doing nothing but standing and making banter lol.

[Blue Blood]

6 minutes ago, Creep Dude said:

A "re-run of Generations"? Because Classic happens to appear?

No offense but did you even watch any of the trailers? It's story is literally anything but Gens.

There's war, action, adventure and high stakes, hell, even the side cast is relevant in the story.

I don't see any cutscenes with Sonic and Tails and their counterparts are doing nothing but standing and making banter lol.

It's Generations with Mephiles, and this time Sonic needs YOUR help too! No offense,  but did you even watch any of the trailers?

You can't turn a blind eye to the similarities work Generations. It's repeating the big gimmicks/hooks of Generations with old levels and Classic Sonic.

[Dee Dude]

Just now, Blue Blood said:

It's Generations with Mephiles, and this time Sonic needs YOUR help too! No offense,  but did you even watch any of the trailers?

You can't turn a blind eye to the similarities work Generations. It's repeating the big gimmicks/hooks of Generations with old levels and Classic Sonic.

I was talking about the story because that's what Dreadknux was talking about...

I'm aware of the similarities gameplay wise.

[DiamondX]

The stories of Forces and Gnerations are as similar as Sonic 1's and Shadow the Hedgehog's are. As in, they are completely different.

If you want, Mania's story is more similar to Generations' than Forces'. Mania's is about traveling back in time. Forces' isn't.

[Blue Blood]

10 minutes ago, Creep Dude said:

I was talking about the story because that's what Dreadknux was talking about...

Which is why I said it's Generations with Mephiles.

[Diogenes]

While it's obviously not quite the same as Generations, I do think it's relying a lot on fanservice in a way similar to Generations. We've got most of the cast showing up, including some unexpected villains, we've got returning stages, so far including GHZ, Chemical Plant, and the Death Egg, and we've got the Avatar character as a slightly different sort of fanservice. It's got the sense of throwing in as much as possible to appeal to players rather than being a focused and forward-moving entry.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

I'm one who can definitely see the 'cinematic gameplay' angle of sonic Team with Forces. Not because I share that kind of taste (I do not) but because this game is going for a subtly different goal, compared to the early 3D Sonic games which had a clear gameplay aim, even though they were mostly terribly executed. Sonic Adventure 2 for example had cinematic cutscenes but I would never describe it as cinematic gameplay, even though it was heavily flawed and excessively automated. The Sonic stages more or less followed the same spirit of the classic games in its aim at traditional gameplay without interruption. The mech and treasure hunting were different offerings, but still were point A to B gameplay without interruption. Again, they just weren't good.

 

The reason for this subtly different goal, I believe, is because they know at this point that they cannot execute the traditional gameplay in 2D or 3D space, and so they are not prioritizing detailed level design and physics; why would they now after failing so often? They're going for a simplicity that they can handle, and seeing if it can appeal. Theye pretty much said this in interviews, especially Iizuka.

If this doesn't work for them, something will change with the team because Sonic needs to always make money. 

We'll see very soon.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

Which is why I said it's Generations with Mephiles.

I don't get it. What's the punchline?

[Dannymax440]

Failing to see the Mephiles connection since Infinite does appear to be interacting with Sonic throughout the story and not as an idiotic plot drive.

[StaticMania]

Of course he's interacting with Sonic...this instance of a villain interacting with a character shouldn't really have anything to do with their role in the story.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

I find the repeated levels tolerable this time around because they've been changed significantly and they're being treated as areas in Sonic's world rather than levels. 

[Dreadknux]

5 hours ago, Creep Dude said:

A "re-run of Generations"? Because Classic happens to appear?

No offense but did you even watch any of the trailers? It's story is literally anything but Gens.

There's war, action, adventure and high stakes, hell, even the side cast is relevant in the story.

The story, at its very core: Classic Sonic teams up with Modern Sonic to stop (two?) Dr Eggman(s?) from destroying the world. That “literally” DOES sound like something like Gens.

Don’t get distracted by side characters and extra fluff. It’s still Malibu Stacy with a new hat.

I also don’t know why it’s worth arguing about the story/plot in a Sonic game at all, really. It’s like arguing about the canon in a Super Mario game.

[Multikaris]

3 hours ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

I find the repeated levels tolerable this time around because they've been changed significantly and they're being treated as areas in Sonic's world rather than levels. 

Agreed. Heck, MANIA treats them more as fanservice than this does! And they don’t even use their original music anymore. It’s just like how it was handled in Adventure.

[Dee Dude]

3 hours ago, Dreadknux said:

The story, at its very core: Classic Sonic teams up with Modern Sonic to stop (two?) Dr Eggman(s?) from destroying the world. That “literally” DOES sound like something like Gens.

Don’t get distracted by side characters and extra fluff. It’s still Malibu Stacy with a new hat.

I also don’t know why it’s worth arguing about the story/plot in a Sonic game at all, really. It’s like arguing about the canon in a Super Mario game.

I don't get why we're arguing about this either...

I just find it baffling how we're reaching to a point where people comparing the plot to Generations.

Make fun of and compare the gameplay and levels all you want but the bringing the story into this is where I call BS.

[CleverSonicUsername]

Oh well of course. I mean that's what people come to Sonic for, the riveting emotional storytelling and gravitas. Compromising on the gameplay to tell this story is worth it and makes me appreciate the game in a whole new light.

Edit: To be clear my stance is this: a narrative driven game is fine but it's still a game. If you're going to lean on your narrative then you better have gameplay that not only compliments it but is actually fun to engage with. Excusing poor, lazy, vapid gameplay because a cinematic pops up in the middle of it as being ~narratively driven~ is such a flimsy excuse. Sonic 3 was a more narrative driven game than the ones that came before it, often breaking up gameplay to touch on little beats, but the rest of that game was actually fun. You can do both. Sonic team is incapable of doing either, as far as I can tell.

[KHCast]

1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

Agreed. Heck, MANIA treats them more as fanservice than this does! And they don’t even use their original music anymore. It’s just like how it was handled in Adventure.

Well, Mania uses their presence in a story driven way as well, and the music gets remixed vs new songs added is fine, since the music given in Forces so far imo is bland and boring outside like two songs. Whether they give story purpose and make them feel more like locations vs levels is ultimately still pointless, they're still using the levels for nostalgia's sake first and foremost. Mania doesn't get as much crap for it since it's very clear about that and not trying to dress it up.

[Nakasu]

Both Mania and Forces are suffering from feeling like another Generations. We're going through the same stages with remixed or different music. It doesn't matter how you look at it, how much you like Forces or like Mania. They are both padding to fanservice the in the same way Generations did it. They are both throwing in random stages, old characters, remixed tunes, etc. to tap into nostalgia. Which is what they did 2 mainline sonic games before. Its disappointing in both Mania and Forces that originality seems to have taken a step back.for me it doesn't matter if its dressed up or straight up out there. We've had enough nostalgia pandering games to the point where i'm burnt out.

[Nix]

What really irks me about Forces being another nostalgia throwback over Mania being one is that they decided for some reason to tell us that it wasn't?  Mania was pretty upfront about what it was, while with Forces we were told to wait and see because it apparently wasn't a sequel to Generations.

And then Green Hill Zone was shown, the mention of Chemical Plant being in the game, Egg Dragoon, the greatest hits collection of Sonic's past villains, and Chemical Plant actually being a level in the game...

Even if it is something completely new, they're doing an absolutely horrid job at selling the idea to us.

[Xenos]

Once you step back and realize the last fully original 3D(?) title was 7 years ago, it puts a lot of things in perspective.

I wouldn't mind it as much in Forces if they actually used the weird mixture of tropes to make something interesting. The sand in Green Hill being nothing much more than window dressing is part of what I mean.

 

[Kellan]

5 hours ago, Dreadknux said:

The story, at its very core: Classic Sonic teams up with Modern Sonic to stop (two?) Dr Eggman(s?) from destroying the world. That “literally” DOES sound like something like Gens.

Don’t get distracted by side characters and extra fluff. It’s still Malibu Stacy with a new hat.

So, the stories are the same, as long as we ignore the fact that the characters, locations, and events are different? I feel like reducing the entire story down to the presence of three characters and ignoring everything else is unfair to the game. I mean, couldn’t we just say every Sonic game has the same story: Sonic fights Eggman? I mean, that’s technically correct, but it’s horribly reductive.

5 hours ago, Dreadknux said:

I also don’t know why it’s worth arguing about the story/plot in a Sonic game at all, really. It’s like arguing about the canon in a Super Mario game.

This just seems dismissive. Sonic Forces clearly has more story than the average Super Mario game, and I feel like you know that. And we’re discussing the story because you brought up the story’s perceived lack of quality as the reason why the game could not be considered cinematic.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Kellan said:

This just seems dismissive. Sonic Forces clearly has more story than the average Super Mario game, and I feel like you know that.

Having more story doesn't necessarily mean it's worth more of your time or attention.

[Kellan]

12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Having more story doesn't necessarily mean it's worth more of your time or attention.

Ok, but the person I was replying to was the one who brought up the story in the first place. I don’t think it’s fair to bring something up to make your point, and then say that the entire topic is unworthy of discussion when people start disagreeing with you. People do care about the story, myself included, and that’s why we’re discussing it right now.

Edit: Well, I guess technically they brought up story in response to someone else, who would be the one who first brought it up. I feel like my point still stands, but I want to be accurate.