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Will you continue to support Modern Sonic if Forces is poorly recieved?


nilesdobbs

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I don't care if other people like Forces. I only care if I like it.

And if I like it, then I'll happily keep supporting it. If I don't, then I'll wait to see what the next Modern game is because I decide whether I want it or not.

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If something looks genuinely appealing to me I'll buy it. Don't care if it's a classc game or modern or whatever. I want the Sonic franchise to do well and will happily put my money down on something I feel deserves it.

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I never have nor will let critical reception or fan feedback influence my support of modern Sonic or the series at large. I could not care less who likes what game. The only opinion that matters is my own, and I don't need anyone's approval to validate my enjoyment or non-enjoyment of a particular game. Case in point, I couldn't stand Sonic Colors. I think it's one of the worst Sonic games ever spawned, yet it pulled off a decent Metacritic score and I've seen enough people singing its praises as if it's some kind of standard for 3D Sonic to fill more than a few barf bags. Colors was enough to make me disinterested in the franchise for years. I purchased Generations with very little expectations, and after that point, basically stopped caring about the series and bought nothing. That had zilch to do with fan or critical reception. On the contrary, as much as Sonic 06 allegedly damaged the series' almighty reputation, I thought it was OK. Flawed in so many fundamental ways, but I got good enough enjoyment out of it to clear it in its entirety.... twice. I'm not going to recommend it to anybody because of its issues, but I'm also not going to apologize for liking it, nor do I care what cool cat hipster or big wig gaming "critic" thinks of me for liking it. No one should. Life is way too short for that. 

Bottom line, I will support the series if it turns out quality products and ignites some interest in me. I'm excited to be a Sonic fan for the first time in 7 years thanks to games like Mania and yes, even Forces. I have plenty of concerns and misgivings about Forces, but I am still cautiously optimistic about it because it looks fun, even if not spectacular. If it turns out badly, then I'll likely go back to waiting on bargain bin purchases or cheap used copies like I have for other games I was unsure of, but for $40, I think it's worth the gamble. 

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10 hours ago, nilesdobbs said:

If Sonic Forces does end up being received poorly, will you continue supporting Modern Sonic afterwards? I'm not referring to anything involving Mania or Whitehead. Just Modern Sonic.

I mean, If I end up liking Sonic Forces, then whether or not it's poorly recieved is kinda irrelevant to me. 

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If I cared about how well received a game was, I wouldn't be in this fanbase. Heck, caring about the critics is what kept me out of this fanbase through Colors and Generations (they did not like those games). Eventually I stop putting so much stock in the opinions of others, and started looking for games that I would like. And the rest is (incredibly over-simplified) history.

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Sure. I always give a chance for modern sonic games, including aberrations like Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06. 100s or 0s on Metacritic never meant anything to me and I won't be leaving this franchise just because Forces looks far from being my perfect Sonic. Even in the dark times, Sonic Team still surprised me with fun games like Unleashed, Colors and Generations.

 

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I couldn't care less what the critics say about Sonic Forces. Many Sonic games have gotten very poor reviews from "critics" in the past who have clearly demonstrated their lack of ability to do their job. One example would be a reviewer who trashed Sonic Unleashed, but then we found out he barely even touched the game.

Many people don't seem to understand that game critics are not some kind of impartial authority that genuinely tries to honestly and accurately rate games based on objective measure of the game's quality. Just like any other business, corporations that publish game reviews are looking to make money. As a result, they're going to do everything they can to maximize those dollar bills. In other words, game reviews have little or nothing to do with a game's quality. Rather, they're going to go with what they think the majority of people will want to hear. If they subscribe to this false notion that Sonic is a bad series, and if they believe the majority of people in their targeted demographics hold that same opinion, then that is the opinion they are going to reflect in their reviews to try to make themselves look better. An easy and cheap way to superficially raise your business's credibility is to try to make yourself look better by comparison: X company says Y game sucks, most of the people with money to spend agree with company X's opinion, therefore company X raises their credibility among said group of people which just further spreads via word of mouth, especially in this age of the internet.

I'm not at all saying that all reviewers are this way, or that reviews are always wrong. Rather, this is simply the general model behind companies that participate in this. However, like any company, each individual person can and will make their own decisions to some extent, so I'm sure there are plenty of game reviewers who genuinely try to do an honest and good job. And, there definitely are cases when many people think a game sucks and they're right, because it just sucks. I personally don't think any Sonic game sucks, but that's just me. I am simply saying that reviews are not any kind of impartial or objective source of information about the quality of a game. Every critic has their biases, whether conscious or unconscious, not to mention how most companies will be more than eager to adjust a review score if the price is right. That would explain why so many garbage games get high review scores.

So yes, I will absolutely continue to support modern Sonic if Forces is poorly received by the critics. Let them write whatever reviews they want -- I'm just going to enjoy the game series I love, no matter what anyone else has to say about it.

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It's not a matter of supporting Modern Sonic, but supporting Sonic Team.

I support its dismantling, as well as Iizuka's removal. And who knows about Chistian Whitehead's ascension?

But that's all wishful thoughts. We all know that SoJ will never allow a non-japanese to be in command of Sonic.

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I don’t think the Boost gameplay style is the right direction for the series at all since it basically mandates padding the game with some sort of extraneous gimmick. Some of these (Wisps/Classic Sonic) work better than others (Werehog/Avatar), but the problem remains that it’s not a gameplay style that appears to be able to carry a game on its own.

On their own, I find the Modern stages in Unleashed and Generations to be pretty fun to play through, but you could beat all of those together in under two hours. Even Colors, which is the closest to a straight Modern Sonic game, relies heavily on 2D to pad the game’s length along with Wisp-heavy missions that barely count as Acts and aren’t worth replaying on their own.

I would probably buy another Boost game (I’m on the fence about Forces though), but I think the longer this style of gameplay sticks around the worse off the franchise will be. We will continue to be saddled with half-baked gimmicks that are themselves an afterthought to the Boost stages which suffer themselves due to the need to work on the gimmick of the year.

It is way past time that SEGA and Sonic Team figure out something to do with Sonic that allows him to carry a game on his own.

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Yes, but only because it's always very interesting to see what Sonic Team has in store for the next 3D Sonic game.

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Well, yeah, because changing your mind about something because other people perceived it a different way is a very depressing thing for an individual to do. 

It's not really the same as hearing the complaints and thinking over some of the aspects about it to see if you agree or disagree. It's just conformity if you literally stop supporting something you like because you heard that other people don't like it. Might as well not even be a Sonic fan at that point.

Also, Forces getting poorly received wouldn't be the fault of "Modern Sonic". It'd be the fault of the people who designed Modern Sonic to be the way he was in Forces. That and whether or not enough people believed the way he was in Forces was a bad thing.

 

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It depends. I actually have no real clue what kind of role Modern Sonic should have now this days. The modern Sonic from the Dreamcast era was really different if you compare him to the Modern Sonic of the recent titles, which is not really that different from Boom Sonic of the Sonic Boom games, and TV show and is also those two incarnations of Sonic are very different if we compare them to Archie Sonic. Which is also over so their for it is possible we can once again get another modern version of Sonic with IDW.

I'm actually not really sure. Modern Sonic really needs to have his own identity for once.  

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Of course. 06 was a mess bit I bought 3 copies. Even if it's not rated very high this game will sell pretty well I'm sure.  One way or another I'll support them.

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20 hours ago, SCS said:

I couldn't care less what the critics say about Sonic Forces. Many Sonic games have gotten very poor reviews from "critics" in the past who have clearly demonstrated their lack of ability to do their job. One example would be a reviewer who trashed Sonic Unleashed, but then we found out he barely even touched the game.

Many people don't seem to understand that game critics are not some kind of impartial authority that genuinely tries to honestly and accurately rate games based on objective measure of the game's quality. Just like any other business, corporations that publish game reviews are looking to make money. As a result, they're going to do everything they can to maximize those dollar bills. In other words, game reviews have little or nothing to do with a game's quality. Rather, they're going to go with what they think the majority of people will want to hear. If they subscribe to this false notion that Sonic is a bad series, and if they believe the majority of people in their targeted demographics hold that same opinion, then that is the opinion they are going to reflect in their reviews to try to make themselves look better. An easy and cheap way to superficially raise your business's credibility is to try to make yourself look better by comparison: X company says Y game sucks, most of the people with money to spend agree with company X's opinion, therefore company X raises their credibility among said group of people which just further spreads via word of mouth, especially in this age of the internet.

I take issue with your assertion that companies will just make up opinions based on what they think people want to hear. That may happen but by and large one cannot say that is what has plagued Sonic. Critics have for the most part treated Sonic very fairly with his main releases. Unleashed, I agree they were a bit harsh, but both Colors and Gens were received well overall despite Modern Sonic long having a poor reputation. And then obviously there's Mania, which completely defied all of the memes that exist about Sonic today and was widely praised. But Sonic games have earned all of the previous flak they have gotten. Sonic games being 'bad' is not some "false notion" as you word it, or idea spread by conspiring journalists. They're 'bad' when they're bad, because they're bad.

I respect everyone who says that they will independently form their own opinions of a product by trying it out and then deciding if they like it. But its not reasonable to expect most consumers to do such a thing unless motivated by a product's appeal and excitement. This is why previews and trailers and such exist.

As far as professional reviewers go, we rely on them because it is impractical to purchase every single game that is released based on pure, independent judgement unless one has lots of disposable income or an ability to demo each game as its previewed (which generally doesn't happen outside of special access). At a basic level, this is why these people have jobs; to save you time and money and complement advertisement for game companies. You can choose whether or not to ignore based on your own personal tastes and if you find a game appealing, by all means go for it, period. But few are going drop $40-60 on a product they have never tried before unless the initial impressions are convincing, or there is some immediate eye-catching appeal, or if its a trustworthy brand.

I buy from Sonic because I love Sonic, but I lost trust in the brand a long time ago after being betrayed numerous times by games with mediocre to poor quality, especially given the standard that had been set for years of great games (in Sonic's first decade). And so many people who have known Sonic for so long feel the same way. Sonic has earned his generally mediocre reputation and is going to have to do a lot get the benefit of the doubt that strong brands generally get.

 

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2 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

But Sonic games have earned all of the previous flak they have gotten. Sonic games being 'bad' is not some "false notion" as you word it, or idea spread by conspiring journalists. They're 'bad' when they're bad, because they're bad.

Regarding this point: did you forget the whole "Sonic was never good" thing, which IGN participated in, or Sonic Mania being "the first good Sonic game ever made"? Sonic games absolutely catch some unearned flak.

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9 minutes ago, A_W said:

Regarding this point: did you forget the whole "Sonic was never good" thing, which IGN participated in, or Sonic Mania being "the first good Sonic game ever made"? Sonic games absolutely catch some unearned flak.

IGN is dumb af, don't take them seriously.

Let's not forget that Sonic 4 EP1 is sitting at 80+ on Metacritic, so I'd say reviewers have been too kind with Sonic games. Sonic got so many free-passes during the years that it's actually crazy to see the series still going strong. Any other series with the same quality output would've died off a long time ago.

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9 minutes ago, A_W said:

Regarding this point: did you forget the whole "Sonic was never good" thing, which IGN participated in, or Sonic Mania being "the first good Sonic game ever made"? Sonic games absolutely catch some unearned flak.

Those statements are not true and IGN knows it, considering they have positively reviewed Sonic games in the past. But the reason they drag Sonic's name through the mud is because Sonic's name has been dropped there for many years by SEGA and Sonic Team. SEGA has not successfully fought off the criticism by ensuring excellence ever since '06, which is a historically bad game for many reasons. The current norm for Sonic since the mid 2000s is to expect his games to be mediocre at best. SEGA needs to establish a new norm and then you won't have your IGNs and game grumpers out there trolling the franchise.

Many others have the right to wonder if and when Sonic was good, because for the majority of the franchise's history Sonic has not been very good.....One can honestly say that the only time the franchise was universally loved and respected in the past was during the classic era but that was over 20 years ago. Its easy to forget 'good' entries like Colors and Generations when they're sandwiched between catastrophic failures like '06 and Boom. There need to be a few Manias in a row before you'll finally see the tide turn.

Sonic is fair game... until SEGA takes drastic steps to ensure a high level of quality and consistency.

 

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On 17/10/2017 at 11:14 PM, Gabz Girl said:

I only buy and support a Sonic game if it’s a good one nowadays. I was unlucky with Sonic Lost World thinking it was going to be as good as Generations, but I’m not giving Sonic Team the benefit of the doubt this time. If they can’t pull themselves together and keep churning out these bland, boring looking 3D/2D platformers then fuck it, I’m not buying them.

Yeah, most of the train wrecks you can see coming a mile off (06, Black Knight, etc), but Lost World was the one that gutted me in particular. I was totally prepared for it to be good. It had a really novel design concept (I remember watching a Japanese TV show where they interviewed Sonic Team about Lost World and they were showing off paper roll and dome concept dioramas; there was clearly some creative thinking behind it) and I liked the idea of the parkour moves, but playing it felt incredibly bland and inconsequential. I actually benched it post-World 2 for about a year and a half before going back and finishing the whole thing. It just didn’t feel right, man. :/

———

I’ll throw my hat into the ‘if it’s a good game I’ll support it’ group, but it maybe wouldn’t be so difficult for Modern Sonic in particular if Sonic Team didn’t keep trying to reinvent the wheel every single time.

Sonic Adventure was great back in the day; totally janky now, but had a good base that was sort of built upon in SA2 (at the expense of more expansive level design; definitely got more narrow). But then you had Heroes, which was like Lost World an admirable idea that fell flat on its face, then 06 (which added cheesy edginess, pointless overworlds, princesses and ideas from canned FPS projects), onto Unleashed (which again, great concept but ultimately unplayable unless you like memorising button presses like a crude Simon Says).

Colours and Generations seemed to be the modern series really finding some consistency in design and building on it to make it better (even if they added Wisps to Colours - another gimmick, although that one was a rare case of a gimmick being both a great idea and working fantastically well). But then you have Sonic Team mixing things up again with Forces.

If Forces doesn’t hit the mark, there’s a strong chance that Sonic Team will just try to rewrite the book again and think of some new thing to jazz up the next title. When what they really need to be doing is finding a groundwork that... works, and sticking with it.

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I could REALLY care less how this game could potentially be poorly received by some random person as long as I enjoy/like it that's all that matter which I will!

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If a Modern Sonic game turns out to be good then I will of course support it and give the praise it deserves.

However, over the last 12-13 years I'm getting more and more less interested in Modern Sonic games because I have  little confidence in Sonic Team's ability to make a fun and enjoyable game. From my own experience the decline has been going more or less downhill since Heroes. My favorite modern game in this period is Sonic Colors. I don't particularly enjoy replaying the other modern games (accept Sonic Adventure 1 & 2). I really wanted to like SLW for how it tried to move away from the boost formula, but ended up disappointed due to the poor controls and often bizarre level design.

So yeah, when it comes to Forces the only thing that really caters to my interests is the idea of using design elements from Sonic Colors, the story and soundtrack (and even some of the music-mainly classic Sonic's tracks sound disappointing). 

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For me, personally, the character customization is what got me interested in Forces in the first place. If *that* becomes a staple of future Sonic games, then heck yes I'll support more modern Sonic games that come out down the line. If not, and things revert back to just being about Sonic himself and the other canon characters, then no. Problably not.

But that's just me personally, as an extremely casual Sonic fan who loves character creation and customization above pretty much anything else in video games. I know it's not the way most Sonic fans think or feel about the franchise.

Who knows, though? Forces could impress me so much and be so much fun at it's core that I get hooked on the gameplay and other aspects of the game , and actually look forward to future games regardless of character creation and customization. I'm definitely open to that possibility!

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On 10/17/2017 at 11:06 AM, nilesdobbs said:

If Sonic Forces does end up being received poorly, will you continue supporting Modern Sonic afterwards? I'm not referring to anything involving Mania or Whitehead. Just Modern Sonic.

What does this even mean? If there is no Modern Sonic then you are only left with Classic Sonic which belongs with the 2D games. I want Modern Sonic and the other Modern characters to stay around. Forces doing badly does not change anything.

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On 2017. 10. 17. at 7:06 PM, nilesdobbs said:

If Sonic Forces does end up being received poorly, will you continue supporting Modern Sonic afterwards? I'm not referring to anything involving Mania or Whitehead. Just Modern Sonic.

To be honest, there is nothing 'modern' about Forces to begin with. It's 2D most of the time even with 'modern' characters that are supposed to represent 3D gameplay. The little 3D it has has been reduced to bare minimum, so much so that it's almost a strech calling it 3D at all. In my eyes trading player input for spectacle is not worth supporting. And basically that's what 'modern' boost Sonic is (or what it became if you really want to be generous).

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I'll also add this: instead of 'classic Sonic vs modern Sonic', I'd much rather call it 'physics Sonic vs spectacle Sonic'. Sounds way more descriptive to me. 'Modern' makes it sound like it's a lot more advanced, refined and sophisticated compared to 'classic', when it's kinda the opposite.

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