Sonic Forces - Japanese Introduction Trailer

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I mean if we're going by JP translations, I don't think Generations ever actually mentions Classic being Modern's past self, so it's really more of a localization fuckup.

[Multikaris]

7 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

I mean if we're going by JP translations, I don't think Generations ever actually mentions Classic being Modern's past self, so it's really more of a localization fuckup.

Agreed. It was all a localization error.

 

[Sean]

Even if classic Sonic is now intended to be a separate character from modern Sonic, it's pretty obvious that they didn't think that deeply about it when they were actually making Generations. Translation error or not, it's pretty easy to see classic in Gens as "past Sonic" (both in-universe and in a meta sense) especially when you're dealing with an enemy that specializes in time-related screwiness.

All evidence in the game points to classic being Sonic from the past. Sega just decided to retcon that for absolutely no fucking good reason.

[Razule]

22 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Agreed. It was all a localization error.

 

We don't necessarily know that. Even Japanese stuff called Classic Sonic "past Sonic". Including Generations' Japanese dub which is mostly the same as the English one. Yeah, it could've been a Pontaff error that somehow, despite Sonic Team's known insistency on things being consistent to their brand image, but.. that sounds really unlikely. And there is no source backing that claim up.

The Time Eater is literally called the "Time Eater". Because it ate time. Because the game was about time travel. Because Classic Sonic was from another time, the past, one could even say. Because he was Sonic from the past. But now he isn't, and he never was.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

7 minutes ago, Sean said:

All evidence in the game points to classic being Sonic from the past. Sega just decided to retcon that for absolutely no fucking good reason.

But its separate universe status means that Classic Sonic can continue to have games without being crammed between Knuckles and SA1. I definitely prefer the alternate universes thing. 

[Sean]

But why do classic-styled games like Mania absolutely have to be set before Sonic Adventure? Sonic's redesign has no canonical explanation, and even then, it's not like Sega specifically stated "x amount of time has passed between S3K and SA1" to prevent an infinite number of games being intentionally set between the two, since the characters don't age.

[StaticMania]

It doesn't matter when the games take place if they're using Classic Sonic...

 

It doesn't matter which design they decide to use for a classic style game...

 

It's all so unnecessary. Could just alternate between designs when needed...

[Razule]

1 minute ago, Sean said:

But why do classic-styled games like Mania absolutely have to be set before Sonic Adventure? Sonic's redesign has no canonical explanation, and even then, it's not like Sega specifically stated "x amount of time has passed between S3K and SA1" to prevent an infinite number of games being intentionally set between the two, since the characters don't age.

Exactly.. it could have been so simple, but they just had to make it weird. But I guess that ties into their need to over-explain things, while making it more complicated. 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

5 minutes ago, Sean said:

But why do classic-styled games like Mania absolutely have to be set before Sonic Adventure? Sonic's redesign has no canonical explanation, and even then, it's not like Sega specifically stated "x amount of time has passed between S3K and SA1" to prevent an infinite number of games being intentionally set between the two, since the characters don't age.

I think the first part of this post, about the redesign not actually meaning anything, is more persuasive than the second. Unfortunately, the alternate dimension thing has already happened, so for them to release Mania 2 and go "oh wait, this is Modern Sonic but he happens to look different!" would just unleash a new layer of clusterfuckery. 

As for the argument that it takes place in the past... I dunno, I just don't like the notion that I'm playing as Sonic's younger, mute self. He seems somehow weaker and less capable. I'd rather be playing as a Sonic who doesn't stand in that shadow. 

[Sean]

I think in the case of this series there's a difference between classic being "Sonic from the past" and being "Sonic but younger." I don't think classic Sonic is meant to be a young Sonic at all because characters don't age. He is simply a version of Sonic that we, the audience, have seen in past games and is a direct visual acknowledgement of Sonic's earlier history.

[Razule]

11 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

It doesn't matter when the games take place if they're using Classic Sonic...

 

It doesn't matter which design they decide to use for a classic style game...

 

It's all so unnecessary. Could just alternate between designs when needed...

Yes, but now they've gone and tied narrative importance to it. The thing about Sonic, in comparison to Mario, for example is that people are accustomed to a.. continuity of some sorts. Now fans expect for every thing to be consistent and make sense and be explained. It's apparently difficult for Sega to let that go at this point. They've tried, but they won't, or can't. People would complain.

3 minutes ago, Sean said:

I think in the case of this series there's a difference between classic being "Sonic from the past" and being "Sonic but younger." I don't think classic Sonic is meant to be a young Sonic at all because characters don't age. He is simply a version of Sonic that we, the audience, have seen in past games and is a direct visual acknowledgement of Sonic's earlier history.

Yeah, but because Classic Sonic has a generally younger look and innocent feel to him, especially in Generations, people assume he's much younger. Hell, there are people who think Modern Sonic is literally the same age as the franchise because he had a birthday in Generations.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

2 minutes ago, Sean said:

I think in the case of this series, there's a difference between classic being "Sonic from the past" and being "Sonic but younger." I don't think classic Sonic is meant to be a younger version of Sonic at all because characters don't age. He's simply a version of Sonic that we, the audience, have seen in past games and is a direct visual acknowledgement of Sonic's earlier history.

But then future classic style games are still hamstrung by Classic Sonic's comparatively limited abilities. 50 meter Godzilla is just as awesome as 100 meter Godzilla, but you put them in the same world together and it just wouldn't work. You suddenly don't tier 50 meter Godzilla's power the same way you would otherwise. 

Classic games being in the past would make it so future titles would have to yield to things that will eventually happen, such as Chaos being unleashed. Imagine if we got an alternate, Classic-style retelling of that?

Wait! Holy shit, headcanon idea! Let's say Mania's Phantom Ruby fiasco actually created the alternate timeline and dimension. That way, the classic games are still a part of Modern Sonic's past, but Classic Sonic gets to go forward with his own wild stories. 

[Sean]

I don't think Sonic's abilities should prove to be an issue, either. Sonic's abilities change depending on the game and what the developers feel like implementing for the sake of the gameplay. The most recent example is Sonic having a completely different set of moves in SLW and not even possessing the boost in any capacity in his normal state.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

1 minute ago, Sean said:

I don't think Sonic's abilities should prove to be an issue, either. Sonic's abilities change depending on the game and what the developers feel like implementing for the sake of the gameplay. The most recent example is Sonic having a completely different set of moves in SLW and not even possessing the boost in any capacity in his normal state.

Ok but what about my super awesome theory though? I demand praise. 

[Sean]

Well if you really want my opinion on it I'm not a fan. I just want there to be one world, one continuity. And this would have been the case had Sega not declared otherwise in Forces.

[Razule]

Just now, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Ok but what about my super awesome theory though? I demand praise. 

It's not exactly new.. people suggest it everytime this is brought up. All the time. Everywhere. In all dimensions. It does make sense though, it'd be a far better solution that what Sega went with.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

1 minute ago, Razule said:

It's not exactly new.. people suggest it everytime this is brought up. All the time. Everywhere. In all dimensions. It does make sense though, it'd be a far better solution that what Sega went with.

Huh, I'd never seen it before. Really it only rectifies one part of the issue, although me being someone who prefers the alternate dimension thing, it's close to perfect.

[Ultimate Victory 64]

I wonder if Sonic is going to motivate Tails to use the Force so he can be able to destroy the Death Egg

[Celestia]

My current theory for how this could play out is that Tails and/or Eggman assumes this was the younger Sonic they've seen before, but he has no idea what they're talking about and this is used to make it more clear that Infinite(/the Ruby)'s powers are more about space than time, or something along those lines. (The only evidence of the Ruby being capable of manipulating time is how you arrive in Stardust Speedway Past in Mania, and that could be chalked up to time anomalies being normal on Miracle Planet.)

On the other hand, as vague as that auto-translated tweet is, I think it's been straight up said elsewhere that Classic is a 100% a separate dimension now? I'm not sure actually but people wouldn't be taking it as the official stance on the matter if that wasn't the case, right?

But yeah, I won't be too surprised if it's a retcon or localization weirdness back in Generations or w/e. It's weird but...I'm personally neutral on it. It's not like the two worlds thing which doesn't make ANY sense to me both in and out of universe.

[Razule]

13 minutes ago, Ultimate Victory 64 said:

I wonder if Sonic is going to motivate Tails to use the Force so he can be able to destroy the Death Egg

It all makes sense.. this proves Infinite really is an alternate Tails! Sonic boards the Death Egg to confront Infinite, gets killed and becomes a ghost to guide the Avatar.

I solved the game, guys

"Only scars remain of who I was"-He only has one fluffy tail left

"I've been up against better just take a look at my face"- Alternate Sonic broke his mask when he initially turned

"Before I say goodbye to you, one more last fist bump"-Sonic fist bumps the Avatar one last time before he dies

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

8 minutes ago, Celestia said:

My current theory for how this could play out is that Tails and/or Eggman assumes this was the younger Sonic they've seen before, but he has no idea what they're talking about and this is used to make it more clear that Infinite(/the Ruby)'s powers are more about space than time, or something along those lines. (The only evidence of the Ruby being capable of manipulating time is how you arrive in Stardust Speedway Past in Mania, and that could be chalked up to time anomalies being normal on Miracle Planet.)

On the other hand, as vague as that auto-translated tweet is, I think it's been straight up said elsewhere that Classic is a 100% a separate dimension now? I'm not sure actually but people wouldn't be taking it as the official stance on the matter if that wasn't the case, right?

But yeah, I won't be too surprised if it's a retcon or localization weirdness back in Generations or w/e. It's weird but...I'm personally neutral on it. It's not like the two worlds thing which doesn't make ANY sense to me both in and out of universe.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. The final zones of Mania are chock full of indications that the Ruby can manipulate time. For instance, in Titanic Monarch Zone after you jump into the portal to face Eggman, the timer resets back to zero and is completely stopped. The timer does not move again until Eggman activates the Phantom Ruby in a flash of light. Also, during Egg Reverie Zone, the timer is constantly displaying random numbers without rhyme or reason. I think that the Phantom Ruby can affect time as well as space. Which makes sense, as in reality space and time are not two different things but rather one and the same. But I digress.

[Razule]

10 minutes ago, Celestia said:

My current theory for how this could play out is that Tails and/or Eggman assumes this was the younger Sonic they've seen before, but he has no idea what they're talking about and this is used to make it more clear that Infinite

Both Eggman and Tails' reactions we've seen indicate they're immediately aware Classic Sonic is from another dimension.

14 minutes ago, Celestia said:

On the other hand, as vague as that auto-translated tweet is, I think it's been straight up said elsewhere that Classic is a 100% a separate dimension now? I'm not sure actually but people wouldn't be taking it as the official stance on the matter if that wasn't the case, right?

I found a translation of Classic Sonic's profile on the Japanese Forces website (which seems to be exactly the same as the tweet) that seemed accurate. 

"Another blue hedgehog who is active in a different dimension came to this world due to Eggman’s power. In the past, he cooperated with the Sonic of this world and saved it. This time, how is he involved?"

So, he's outright the same Classic Sonic from Generations. Iizuka's also said things like Mighty are exclusive to the "classic world of characters", so I think it's safe to say with all the information presented they consider them separate now.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Just now, Razule said:

Both Eggman and Tails' reactions we've seen indicate they're immediately aware Classic Sonic is from another dimension.

I found a translation of Classic Sonic's profile on the Japanese Forces website (which seems to be exactly the same as the tweet) that seemed accurate. 

"Another blue hedgehog who is active in a different dimension came to this world due to Eggman’s power. In the past, he cooperated with the Sonic of this world and saved it. This time, how is he involved?"

So, he's outright the same Classic Sonic from Generations. Iizuka's also said things like Mighty are exclusive to the "classic world of characters", so I think it's safe to say with all the information presented they consider them separate now.

I actually kind of like that. Modern gets Blaze, Classic gets Mighty. Kind of a nice way to differentiate the two further with new characters going forward. 

[Straw Hat]

Trailer was pretty cool. Straight Line Hill Zone looks.... straight, I guess.

But dear God, the lighting in these cutscenes is uuuuuuugly. I can't figure out these guys saying this game looks better than Unleashed.

 

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, Sean said:

But why do classic-styled games like Mania absolutely have to be set before Sonic Adventure? Sonic's redesign has no canonical explanation, and even then, it's not like Sega specifically stated "x amount of time has passed between S3K and SA1" to prevent an infinite number of games being intentionally set between the two, since the characters don't age.

Because some people, including I think sega themselves don't want either sonic associating with eachother outside of specific opportunities they specifically allow. Its also the explanation for why they arbitrarily decided those games take place in " separate world" which... sort of actually ruins a sonic adventure 2 theory that shadow was based the super sonic mural because now that shit didn't happen in universe it was another sonic world... so... , i'm rambling. 

Point is, 32 year old classic fan steve might get pissed if shadow showed up in sonic mania 2, or anything past the classic era shows up in sonic mania 2 or anything that isn't in his perception of classic sonic in sonic mania 2 so they are different worlds, at different times with different expectations. So outside of instances like generations and forces, they don't want it to intermingle. I have a hunch that depending on how this game is received, will widen and that divide. 

I'm not saying this is the correct way to think, but that's what I think they are doing