Sonic Forces - Japanese Introduction Trailer

[Razule]

Tbh one reason I like the alternate dimension thing is that, and this is really dumb: no longer will I have to reason how his eyes changed color or why Eggman had a growth spurt in middle-age, or why Knuckles moved the Master Emerald, or any other crap

Sure there could be reasons, but hey! They don't matter anymore

[The Deleter]

18 hours ago, Joseph Henry said:

Uh that doesn't mean anything, he could be scared AND hesitant

also who faces a demon to say look, let's be friends, here a fist bump

It has to be a sign of friendship or something, so the Avatar is trying to jog Infinite's memory that way

Because it's not a fist bump my m8, it's a fighting stance :V

8 hours ago, Ultimate Victory 64 said:

He is so damn edgy. I love it

There's also this new bit. Probably followed up by the "Pain and fear" line afterwards. You really still think they know each other? My dude, ya best have said your goodbyes to your avi while you can at this rate : P

(this is such a rollercoaster, lol)

 

Also, I looked through the trailer again and uh...

Hmm

[Almar]

48 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Because some people, including I think sega themselves don't want either sonic associating with eachother outside of specific opportunities they specifically allow. Its also the explanation for why they arbitrarily decided those games take place in " separate world" which... sort of actually ruins a sonic adventure 2 theory that shadow was based the super sonic mural because now that shit didn't happen in universe it was another sonic world... so... , i'm rambling.

None of the backstory seen in the Sonic Adventure games works at all with the Two Worlds junk even ignoring the mural.

>Yes, a bunch of Ancient South America Echidnas were capable of interdimensional/interplanetary travel.

>Yes, some random scientist from an otherwise human filled Earth made his Ultimate Lifeform a hedgehog and somehow knew about the Chaos Emeralds with the Echidna Civilization enough to model where the Biolizard was sealed away in after the Master Emerald's altar

I mean, Sonic X did it earlier and it fell apart there too. The show never answered the question of how Gerald knew about anything in Sonic's world or even the obvious one of how Eggman could have ended up there without ever noticing he's an alien.

Similarly, Modern Sonic games before Generations reference the Classic ones enough that it it's sure that the whole Two Dimensions thing is just what Iizuka pulled out of nowhere for his territorial actions. I already brought up the Sonic CD flashback so I'll bring up Metal Sonic being already established as an major enemy of Sonic's in Heroes, Sonic calling out Knuckles for Eggman tricking him again, the Echidna Civilization being obviously the same dead one mentioned in Sonic 3 & Knuckles' backstory...

[Celestia]

1 hour ago, Crazy_Diamond said:

I wouldn't be so sure of that. The final zones of Mania are chock full of indications that the Ruby can manipulate time. For instance, in Titanic Monarch Zone after you jump into the portal to face Eggman, the timer resets back to zero and is completely stopped. The timer does not move again until Eggman activates the Phantom Ruby in a flash of light. Also, during Egg Reverie Zone, the timer is constantly displaying random numbers without rhyme or reason. I think that the Phantom Ruby can affect time as well as space. Which makes sense, as in reality space and time are not two different things but rather one and the same. But I digress.

Ah, I forgot about that. I remember just waving it off as reality being screwed with, but yeah.

59 minutes ago, Razule said:

Both Eggman and Tails' reactions we've seen indicate they're immediately aware Classic Sonic is from another dimension.

Most likely you're right, but trailers can be (intentionally or not) misleading sometimes. Tails' line is probably from that scene, but not necessarily the first thing he says when he sees Sonic.

59 minutes ago, Razule said:

So, he's outright the same Classic Sonic from Generations. Iizuka's also said things like Mighty are exclusive to the "classic world of characters", so I think it's safe to say with all the information presented they consider them separate now.

I think to some extent they've considered them separate for a while now (I remember how even post-Generations, Archie Sonic was sometimes restricted from using the classic designs in flashbacks and the like, long before all this went down), though them being explicitly different canons seems new-ish. Admittedly I got that impression even back when I played the Adventure games; pre-Gens, it felt like a soft reboot to me even though in retrospect it probably wasn't intended as such. Generations is when things got really confusing and tbh they definitely should've just left it as a not-meant-to-be-taken-literally kind of thing.

I'm still curious to see how it turns out and again, I don't mind the idea in theory, I just kind of doubt if it was worth doing it like this. Like...to be blunt, I'm 99% sure they're not doing this to "explain" the different designs, or anything like that. And it doesn't matter that it contradicts a lot of stuff either because obviously that's less important than not making Sonicelitist69420 angry that Classic Sonic exists in the same timeline as Shadow or whatever. The only reason for this is so Classic and Modern are considered separate enough that people are even less inclined to associate the former with the latter's baggage.

[Shadowlax]

34 minutes ago, Almar said:

None of the backstory seen in the Sonic Adventure games works at all with the Two Worlds junk even ignoring the mural.

>Yes, a bunch of Ancient South America Echidnas were capable of interdimensional/interplanetary travel.

>Yes, some random scientist from an otherwise human filled Earth made his Ultimate Lifeform a hedgehog and somehow knew about the Chaos Emeralds with the Echidna Civilization enough to model where the Biolizard was sealed away in after the Master Emerald's altar

 

The first one, if they are dealing with chaos emeralds or the master emerald items that can warp time and space that's fine

As for the 2nd one, thing is. Well we don't know if Gerald came across shadow, or he completely made him, or black doom mostly made him. There's a lot of shit that's completely a mystery that they completely retcon into making sense. It actually makes more sense if you consider Sonic and the Black Knights a thing that happened, and by a thing that happened, I mean sonic traveled back in time for a period. If that's indeed a thing ( i doubt this myself but here me out here )  and there was some guy that looked like shadow, black doom explained the reason shadow looks the way he does is the black arms. There are people with black arms Blood in them, from that long ago , which means black arms had been to the planet before. Which then explains why black doom already knew about the chaos emeralds and why gun was so adamant of the black arms not getting involved,  and maybe shadow is descended from some old ass black arms, and I dunno... he was found or donated as a child or something. I dunno

Its a little roundabout but there's enough holes in shadow's back story ( and SA2's narrative in general ) that you can just retcon that into him being a hedgehog being a fortunate coinikidink

42 minutes ago, Celestia said:

And it doesn't matter that it contradicts a lot of stuff either because obviously that's less important than not making Sonicelitist69420 angry that Classic Sonic exists in the same timeline as Shadow or whatever. The only reason for this is so Classic and Modern are considered separate enough that people are even less inclined to associate the former with the latter's baggage.

I think those hypothetical people, and that hypothetical reason are more aligned than you give it credit for. In the sense that sonic elitist steve is upset classic sonic existed in the same timeline as shadow, because he doesn't like anything past a point, he doesn't want to associate it with all that bad stuff. Thus the split, and vice versa 

46 minutes ago, Almar said:

 

Similarly, Modern Sonic games before Generations reference the Classic ones enough that it it's sure that the whole Two Dimensions thing is just what Iizuka pulled out of nowhere for his territorial actions. I already brought up the Sonic CD flashback so I'll bring up Metal Sonic being already established as an major enemy of Sonic's in Heroes, Sonic calling out Knuckles for Eggman tricking him again, the Echidna Civilization being obviously the same dead one mentioned in Sonic 3 & Knuckles' backstory...

What do you mean by " for his territorial actions"?

[Razule]

1 hour ago, Almar said:

 

Similarly, Modern Sonic games before Generations reference the Classic ones enough that it it's sure that the whole Two Dimensions thing is just what Iizuka pulled out of nowhere for his territorial actions. I already brought up the Sonic CD flashback so I'll bring up Metal Sonic being already established as an major enemy of Sonic's in Heroes, Sonic calling out Knuckles for Eggman tricking him again, the Echidna Civilization being obviously the same dead one mentioned in Sonic 3 & Knuckles' backstory...

Yes, but even outside of the alternate dimension thing, the classics might not have been entirely considered canon.

According to ArchangelUK, a SEGA of Europe member, at the time, the only events that should be considered canon to the game series canon currently is the games post-Adventure. Of course, a lot of what he said is outdated now, but it shows that even back then, shortly before Generations, the idea that classics aren't entirely canon to the Modern Sonic games existed, but that similar events still happened in some form.

The two dimension thing is probably relatively new, yes, but they may have considered them separate entities far earlier. All alternate dimensions does is give an in-universe explanation for the separation.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

It's clear by now that there's a need from Classic Sonic fans to have the Classic Sonic era detached from modern Sonic to "preserve it's purity" or whatever.
(And I assume that's what was meant with "territorial actions".)
Man, the rage I saw some fans have with Sonic Mania ending with perfect pure Classic Sonic becoming associated with filthy conteminated Modern Sonic.
And I sympathise a little with their feelings, sometimes I wish Colors era Sonic was disconnected from the Adventure era too, like Tim Burton Batman from the 60's one.
But there's no point, these "soft reboots" were never designed like one. There's too much of the diffrent era's bleeding into each other to find a nice clean cut.


Best option is not to care. But we're hardcore nerd fans, so that's not an option.
My preferred alternative option is just to assume that all the era's had the exact same adventures take place in them, just in their own style.
So sure, Sonic Adventure 1 was being written like a direct sequel to Sonic 3 and Knuckles and CD in several regards.
Angel island looks diffrent, altough still having some of the same zones (Ice cap) but the master emerald in a completely diffrent place (The shrine being outside instead of inside). So it's just a parralel universe angel island? And Amy's not directly remembering Sonic CD  but a comparible adventure that we never saw. She wore her modern clothes and the envirement didn't resemble a Sonic CD location. So presumingly she's remembering a diffrent adventure where she was kidnapped, an unseen parralel universe version of Sonic CD.


Just like how Sonic Boom loves to throw in Shadow in there with no explanation, leaving us to assume some sort of Sonic adventure 2 esque adventure took place in Sonic Boom as well (Would love to see that for the hilarious tonal conflict that would cause. Heck, it's even funnier to imagine a Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) type adventure taking place in the Sonic Boom universe. Featuring Mayor Fink as the GUN Commander. Darn it Sonic, stop giving me so much inspiration for parodies.)


Dr. Gerald Robotnik being inspired by hedgehogs and echidna's still works with an only Modern Sonic perspective because, well, Sonic and Knuckles DO exist in the Adventure world, it's not human only. Even if the Adventure games do a terrible job in showing how common it is for anthro's to exist there. It almost comes across only Sonic and friends are specific lab experiments walking around in an entirely human world. Altough considering humans talk casually about them in Adventure 1, I have to assume anthro's are a regular recurring occurance. Otherwise even Big the Cat would be treated like some sort of celebrity.


As for Sonic and the black knight, Sonic didn't travel in time there, he traveled inside a book. And the game vaguely implies Sonic was just dreaming (or even making it up as an excuse to miss Amy's date). So I don't think Black Knight and Secret Rings are helpful in uncovering this puzzle.
In fact, there isn't really a puzzle to be solved here. All these plotholes are caused by incompotence, diffrent writers, diffrent style changes, things outside of the scope of the story itself. It's impossible to find a magical explanation where all the puzzle pieces fall into place, it's a mess and it'll just get worse with each new game. Just assume everything is explained in an offscreen adventure that took place. Of which we only witnissed a parralel dimension of it.


What baffles me the most about Iizuka's stupid attempts in splitting everything up is his exclusive use of Classic Sonic style levels in Modern Sonic stories.
If you want Sonic 1-2-3& Knuckles to be their own pure, special, unconteminated disconnected perfect universe so badly, then stop shoving Green Hill Zone, Chemical plant zone and Sky sanctuary everywhere. I mean, it's certainly possible both worlds (And even Boom's) have the exact same locations.
But you're doing a terrible job communicating to us what's going on when the Classic zones get all this focus in a Modern Sonic game. He's supposed to be communicating a clear and distinct seperation between the two worlds.
MEMBER CLASSIC SONIC??? should not be your primary design philosophy in constructing a universe that's specifically NOT Classic Sonic's.

Well, unless Sonic Forces will have Classic Sonic specifically mention how Modern Sonic's version of his zones are truly diffrent from his...But considering Classic Sonic is mute AND that most people would interpret statements like that to be referring to Dr. Eggman's destruction more so then a confirmation of a parralel universe, I'm not holding my breath.

TL:DR, an offscreen wizard adventure did it.

[DiamondX]

I'm still confused about Classic Sonic.

The way I saw it was that Generations Sonic was literally past Sonic, but after he returned to his time, the fact that he met Modern Sonic made the timeline split in 2 parts:

-The original timeline (Sonic 1 > Sonic 2 > Sonic CD > Sonic 3&K > Adventure > ... > Lost World > Forces)

-The new timeline (Sonic 1 > Sonic 2 > Sonic 3&K > Mania > ???)

 

But now apparently Sonic 1 up to 3&K are only in the new timeline?

[Dannymax440]

Maybe Classic will use over-the-top expressions that Tails or anyone else will interpret it.

[DoubleXXCross]

5 hours ago, Shaddy the guy said:

I mean if we're going by JP translations, I don't think Generations ever actually mentions Classic being Modern's past self, so it's really more of a localization fuckup.

You do realise that in the case of Gen that'd make it an error on the part of the Japanese script localisation. But Time Eater is still Time Eater, the past is still the past, and Sonic still tells Classic to enjoy his future because it's gonna be great. Generations English only goes for "another Sonic" but there's enough surrounding it to imply. The only thing missing is they can't make a joke about the name Robotnik because the joke would be the wrong way around.

In contrast, with Forces they're making sure at every step of the way to say "from another dimension", which sounds like a case of over-correction to try and redirect people's instinct to say that Mania!Sonic is the same Classic as in Generations. They wouldn't need to do that if the first time around were so ambiguous.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

It's clear by now that there's a need from Classic Sonic fans to have the Classic Sonic era detached from modern Sonic to "preserve it's purity" or whatever.
(And I assume that's what was meant with "territorial actions".)
Man, the rage I saw some fans have with Sonic Mania ending with perfect pure Classic Sonic becoming associated with filthy conteminated Modern Sonic.
And I sympathise a little with their feelings, sometimes I wish Colors era Sonic was disconnected from the Adventure era too, like Tim Burton Batman from the 60's one.
But there's no point, these "soft reboots" were never designed like one. There's too much of the diffrent era's bleeding into each other to find a nice clean cut.

 

You would be surprised brand separation, helps a lot actually. It allows you to get the kids who want anything to do with the brand, but then you get the people who want specific shit. Like people who don't acknowledge any transformers past the 80's or people who due to the success of this generation wont acknowledge anything pas G4 ponies. Brand separation lets them buy the thing they want to buy  , and specialty nostalgia products make money dollars. 

Quote

Best option is not to care. But we're hardcore nerd fans, so that's not an option.
My preferred alternative option is just to assume that all the era's had the exact same adventures take place in them, just in their own style.

My preferred option is to is to separate what can into its own whatever

Quote

So sure, Sonic Adventure 1 was being written like a direct sequel to Sonic 3 and Knuckles and CD in several regards.
Angel island looks diffrent, altough still having some of the same zones (Ice cap) but the master emerald in a completely diffrent place (The shrine being outside instead of inside). So it's just a parralel universe angel island? And Amy's not directly remembering Sonic CD  but a comparible adventure that we never saw. She wore her modern clothes and the envirement didn't resemble a Sonic CD location. So presumingly she's remembering a diffrent adventure where she was kidnapped, an unseen parralel universe version of Sonic CD.

That doesn't quite work, because well. I can't see sonic 06, or ShtH or Sa2 happening in classic sonic, its not that you can't do it. Its just that those things are so thematically different that I can't see that working. I think that's why they separate that, because you have to think the sonic from sonic 1 ends up as the sonic from sonic 06 and for many that's kinda weird and carries baggage. I can understand it being different realities because the tone of the adventures in some of the shit is widly different. 

Also I don't know, i've never been fond of the idea of classic shadow. Its like Baby boba fett in the starwars prequels, just... no. He was born out of an egg a full grown hedgehog into edgy land. Let that other stuff be its own thing

Quote

Just like how Sonic Boom loves to throw in Shadow in there with no explanation, leaving us to assume some sort of Sonic adventure 2 esque adventure took place in Sonic Boom as well (Would love to see that for the hilarious tonal conflict that would cause. Heck, it's even funnier to imagine a Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) type adventure taking place in the Sonic Boom universe. Featuring Mayor Fink as the GUN Commander. Darn it Sonic, stop giving me so much inspiration for parodies.)

I feel like that explanation doesn't quite for that , sonic adventure 2 makes shadow the way he is now. And the way shadow is now, is much much different than what boom shadow is, it would require an explanation as to what boom shadow is. And with things like one of the boom writers stating that they weren't allowed to use characters like rouge and how silly eggman is. Sonic adventure 2 as it was couldn't have happened in that universe. 

I think the simple explanation is, someone had an explanation. Then the games failed, and then the writers for the show didn't come up with one, so the result is a shitty version of shadow. And it wont matter much if boom is canceled after season 2. 

Quote

Dr. Gerald Robotnik being inspired by hedgehogs and echidna's still works with an only Modern Sonic perspective because, well, Sonic and Knuckles DO exist in the Adventure world, it's not human only. Even if the Adventure games do a terrible job in showing how common it is for anthro's to exist there. It almost comes across only Sonic and friends are specific lab experiments walking around in an entirely human world. Altough considering humans talk casually about them in Adventure 1, I have to assume anthro's are a regular recurring occurance. Otherwise even Big the Cat would be treated like some sort of celebrity.
 

I came up with my own possible explanation for this 

Quote

As for Sonic and the black knight, Sonic didn't travel in time there, he traveled inside a book. And the game vaguely implies Sonic was just dreaming (or even making it up as an excuse to miss Amy's date). So I don't think Black Knight and Secret Rings are helpful in uncovering this puzzle.
In fact, there isn't really a puzzle to be solved here. All these plotholes are caused by incompotence, diffrent writers, diffrent style changes, things outside of the scope of the story itself. It's impossible to find a magical explanation where all the puzzle pieces fall into place, it's a mess and it'll just get worse with each new game. Just assume everything is explained in an offscreen adventure that took place. Of which we only witnissed a parralel dimension of it.
 

I also took the chilidog induced fever dream route for those games

Quote

What baffles me the most about Iizuka's stupid attempts in splitting everything up is his exclusive use of Classic Sonic style levels in Modern Sonic stories.
If you want Sonic 1-2-3& Knuckles to be their own pure, special, unconteminated disconnected perfect universe so badly, then stop shoving Green Hill Zone, Chemical plant zone and Sky sanctuary everywhere. I mean, it's certainly possible both worlds (And even Boom's) have the exact same locations.
But you're doing a terrible job communicating to us what's going on when the Classic zones get all this focus in a Modern Sonic game. He's supposed to be communicating a clear and distinct seperation between the two worlds.
MEMBER CLASSIC SONIC??? should not be your primary design philosophy in constructing a universe that's specifically NOT Classic Sonic's.W

 

Because when you don't have confidence in your game, what you do is call back to other shit when you don't really need it. Call backs when used well are fine, in MGS4 one of the best call backs in all of video games is going back to shadow moses island from MGS1.  But if current sonic team was doing those games Shadow moses would exist in every single metal gear in some shape or form, even if it didn't fit. Even if it wasn't thematically appropriate it would show up to mine nostalgia and mask lapses in quality

Quote

Well, unless Sonic Forces will have Classic Sonic specifically mention how Modern Sonic's version of his zones are truly diffrent from his...But considering Classic Sonic is mute AND that most people would interpret statements like that to be referring to Dr. Eggman's destruction more so then a confirmation of a parralel universe, I'm not holding my breath.

One is super cartooney, one is less cartoony and has more humans, and sometimes is realistic and has edgy shit in it. 

 

[superman43]

As was said before there was nothing stated about how did Classic Sonic became Modern Sonic. How much time passed since S3K and SA1. And I don´t think it´s even necessary. SA1 was not a direct sequel to S3K, and I think it was in no way a sequel. No modern game apart from Gens, but that was anniversary title referenced anything from the Classic games (yes, there is a reference to mushrooms in Frog Forest or Lost Jungle in Sonic Heroes by Knuckles, but it´s not a direct reference to Classic titles).

Yes, few of the areas seems to be close to Classics in SA1 or Advance games, but they are essentially different and that´s it. I am also more happy to keep them separate "dimensions".

[Salamander]

If the Generations English script was in any way a betrayal of the official Sonic Team interpretation of the series - despite being based on time-travel and Sonic's past! - then Pontaff actually called it right.  The idea of Modern and Classic being separate characters is ridiculous, unnecessary, and 100% a modern idea which is wholly unsupported by the Adventure series itself.  The chronological continuity of the series is a natural and intuitive interpretation which has always been entirely sufficient, and only Generations and Mania interrupt it - but the very use of different Sonic designs presents clear markers in time, not space.  The designs nicely tailor to the idea of the different Sonics as different ages, a wonderful piece of serendipity considering that the Modern designs were embellishments to better tailor the series to 3D, and nothing more.  And yet it's not like the Modern designs even prevented them from making 2D games - or did the Advance games suddenly get erased from history?

What's especially strange is that Sonic Team actually nixed a lot of the ideas which established Boom as its own universe.  Do they even know what they want?  It's bizarre to see them support an interpretation which effectively renders Modern Sonic no longer canon; not the original Sonic, but only an impostor.  Detractors of Modern couldn't hope for a better weapon.

[Shadowlax]

 

1 minute ago, FFWF said:

And yet it's not like the Modern designs even prevented them from making 2D games - or did the Advance games suddenly get erased from history?

Seems like it, I swear if SAdvanced 1-3 and battle showed up on steam, I would buy them shits in an instant. 

1 minute ago, FFWF said:

What's especially strange is that Sonic Team actually nixed a lot of the ideas which established Boom as its own universe.  Do they even know what they want? 

Dude, this is a thread by itself but I feel you. The restrictions put on the boom team some of them make sense, but then there are others like " why did you allow this out of the gate" , I don't know what they want. In combination with boom not really getting to or willing to do anything with its characters and world makes it feel like a mass of wasted potential full of husks masquerading as sonic characters 

1 minute ago, FFWF said:

It's bizarre to see them support an interpretation which effectively renders Modern Sonic no longer canon; not the original Sonic, but only an impostor.  Detractors of Modern couldn't hope for a better weapon.

That's sort of the point, some people only want classic sonic. So classic sonic can be a thing by itself.

But then why did they put classic sonic in forces... for seemingly no reason... with worse gameplay than the game they just released not too long ago.  I don't understand what they want besides separating the brand, and even then they sort of go back on it. 

[Roger_van_der_weide]

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

1) You would be surprised brand separation, helps a lot actually.

2) That doesn't quite work, because well. I can't see sonic 06, or ShtH or Sa2 happening in classic sonic,

1) I fully agree, it certainly helped Megaman. And I would have preferred if Sonic did that. So don't get me wrong, me jumping trough hoops is not my preferred construction, just the only one that makes sense with what Sonic team has given us. I'm all for Classic Sonic, Sonic X, Sonic Legends, Sonic Zero, Sonic ZX, Sonic battle network, Sonic Starforce.

2) True. What I meant is that I only assume these off screen adventures happened when the same era refers to them, you don't have to insert every game in every era.
The classic games never referred to any of the modern games, so translating Sonic 06 to the classics won't be necesairy. Modern Sonic doesn't exist in the classic games.

Well, outside of Eggman and Sonic's designs in Sonic Neo Geo adventure and Sonic 4, altough I suppose those 2 (And Sonic Spinball/ 3d Blast/ R/ Game Gear games)'s place in the Classic universe is uncertain. Because those games dare to disrupt the perfection and pureness of the classics, so are all doomed to exist in limbo.

But eh, it's all just mental gymnastics anyway, so whatever. Do whatever's comfortable to you. But relying on Canon is a slipperly slope. Make up your own logic, because it's clear the writers won't.

[Almar]

All of the Mega Man games are set in the same universe except for the few confirmed otherwise. It's not like Inafune said out of nowhere that Classic Megaman lives in another world from X and Zero.

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

The first one, if they are dealing with chaos emeralds or the master emerald items that can warp time and space that's fine

The Mystic Ruins are within train distance of Station Square. And the Echidnas weren't using the Chaos Emeralds willy nilly hence Pachamac going through the trouble of trying to loot them until Chaos went ballistic.

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

As for the 2nd one, thing is. Well we don't know if Gerald came across shadow, or he completely made him, or black doom mostly made him. There's a lot of shit that's completely a mystery that they completely retcon into making sense. It actually makes more sense if you consider Sonic and the Black Knights a thing that happened, and by a thing that happened, I mean sonic traveled back in time for a period. If that's indeed a thing ( i doubt this myself but here me out here )  and there was some guy that looked like shadow, black doom explained the reason shadow looks the way he does is the black arms. There are people with black arms Blood in them, from that long ago , which means black arms had been to the planet before. Which then explains why black doom already knew about the chaos emeralds and why gun was so adamant of the black arms not getting involved,  and maybe shadow is descended from some old ass black arms, and I dunno... he was found or donated as a child or something. I dunno

Its a little roundabout but there's enough holes in shadow's back story ( and SA2's narrative in general ) that you can just retcon that into him being a hedgehog being a fortunate coinikidink

https://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=37417

Shadow, (or a Shadow) was homegrown on Ark using energy from research on chaos emeralds (note how the Biolizard's area is like the Master Emerald's Altar). If you're including Shadow the Hedgehog then Two Worlds falls apart even harder. The Black Arms were active on Sonic Adventure's Earth long ago where they planted a flying fortress. In this Two Worlds version of Sonic the Hedgehog they would have been walking around on some random planet that was doubtful to have the Choas Emeralds.

Also, Sonic and the Black Knight has humans and talking animals on the same world. Merlina and Arthur happen to be human.

 

[PickleBrows]

Generations itself is actually somewhat inconsistent with what the deal is with Classic Sonic. Tails literally can't tell the difference between the two at first, genuinely believing that Modern Sonic left, came back left again rather than immediately noticing the obvious difference.

Modern Sonic himself doesn't even seem to properly catch on, he notices there's something off about his reflection but can't place it. Once the two pairs meet-up they don't acknowledge their differences in appearances at all. So far the classic designs seem like a nod to the audience while in-universe the pairs just look identical.

But, if you save the likes of Knuckles and Blaze as Classic Sonic they'll outright comment that he looks different somehow, albeit never really going the whole way to say that he's clearly not the Sonic they know.

The whole thing with the design change is pretty much screwed as soon as it gets made into an in-universe thing. Regardless of how accurate making him 'past' Sonic was, it was a fairly straight-forward explanation that didn't really interfere with too much. There was simply no need for Mania to be another dimension, just have it set in the past and bring Classic into the present and you've lost nothing for Forces' story. I'm happy to roll with the retcon but they've only needlessly made it more complicated for themselves.

[Mark1]

Honestly? The whole dimension debate will likely be explained once the game is out. And we see more characters interacting with Classic Sonic after Generations 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

10 hours ago, Razule said:

Please tell me how this could possibly be the case.

Simple. Classic Sonic from Generations is Sonic's younger self.

[Almar]

It's a sad day in the Sonic Fanclub when we have members defending unneeded retcons that are contrary to the intent of the games that started Modern Sonic.

[Razule]

1 hour ago, Jovahexeon Cala Maria said:

Simple. Classic Sonic from Generations is Sonic's younger self.

And.. we just went over why that isn't the case. Classic Sonic is referred to as having helped the Sonic of this world before. The before was Generations. Same Classic.

[DiamondX]

Guys, maybe this is what happened:

5 hours ago, Limit Breaker Diamond said:

I'm still confused about Classic Sonic.

The way I saw it was that Generations Sonic was literally past Sonic, but after he returned to his time, the fact that he met Modern Sonic made the timeline split in 2 parts:

-The original timeline (Sonic 1 > Sonic 2 > Sonic CD > Sonic 3&K > Adventure > ... > Lost World > Forces)

-The new timeline (Sonic 1 > Sonic 2 > Sonic 3&K > Mania > ???)

 

But now apparently Sonic 1 up to 3&K are only in the new timeline?

 

[Razule]

13 minutes ago, Limit Breaker Diamond said:

Guys, maybe this is what happened:

 

I think the main issue is the implication that Modern Sonic simply was never Classic Sonic, and that they're separate entities.

Aside from what Iizuka has said.. Tails and Eggman know Classic Sonic. They call him alternate dimension Sonic upon meeting him. Eggman is debatable, but Tails' "It's Sonic from another world!" line definitely sounds like a reuniting. Even if it's split timelines, they knew him as Sonic's past self. Classic Sonic would still think he is Modern Sonic's past self.

Possibilities I think of for that theory to work:

-Eggman and Tails are just immediately aware of the concept of split timelines, and that Classic is now from one, and Classic is also aware so he doesn't question it. This isn't explained to the audience.

-Tails' dialogue is only part of something else.

Quote

"It's past Sonic! No wait..*explains many worlds interpretation in a way that breaks pacing but is supposed to be funny*.. it's Sonic from another world!"

-Classic Sonic gains the power of speech or mimes the many worlds interpretation to Tails upon rescuing him.

Hell, everyone will probably immediately now Classic Sonic is from another world. Classic Sonic will react with familarity with all of them, and not be confused. Not because everyone is well versed in time travel physics, but because it's simply always been like that for them, because it's just a retcon.

[Jango]

It's odd that this trailer reffers to Modern Sonic as "Sonic the Hedgehog" and Classic Sonic as just Classic Sonic, as if Classic was his first/actual name xD

And Tails uses the word "sekai" when talking about Classic, and sekai means world in japanese, not dimension, so the english addaptation already started with the wrong foot.

[Razule]

2 hours ago, Jango said:

It's odd that this trailer reffers to Modern Sonic as "Sonic the Hedgehog" and Classic Sonic as just Classic Sonic, as if Classic was his first name xD

And Tails uses the word "sekai" when talking about Classic, and sekai means world in japanese, not dimension, so the english addaptation already started with the wrong foot.

I'd guess that they consider Modern Sonic the Standard Sonic, while Classic Sonic is exclusive to the Classic brand. Like Sonic Boom Sonic is exclusive to Sonic Boom.

Is there a difference in this context? Like.. Blaze's world is called "Bureizu no sekai". Dimension's just how they chose to translate it. They're probably interchangeable.