Euro Gamer Interview Nakamura on Forces, Mania and the Future of Sonic

[Dr. Detective]

Okay so I actually read through the entire thing on the site and I'm going to change my tune a little bit here.

Because what the man is actually saying really isn't bad. There's definitely problems with the methods employed here but ultimately the sentiment of wanting to find a balance between the fanbase that you divided with your really weird decision making in the past is a commendable one.

The problem of wanting to reintroduce Classic Sonic to Modern fans comes with some varying issues though. For one, Generations may have been years ago at this point but it still happened. It's not so old that sweeping it under the rug and re-doing it again for Forces for that goal makes any real sense. Two, I know that Forces was in development way before Mania was but that doesn't really excuse the idea that continuously mish-mashing the two styles together is the thing that'll end up winning the day. It worked with Generations because, well for one, the level design compensated for it, but two, it was a very cool idea for the 20th Anniversary. However, even in Generations, the idea that it was okay to force Modern Sonic to still have 2D sections within his supposedly 3D stages was ludacris. 

The fact that it's still happening at all is weird but now with this game you thought it'd be a good idea to just bring him back like that? You guys were lucky you got Mania off the ground when you did if this is the case. Maybe it'll make you see the value in not awkwardly splicing shit together in the hopes that forcing everyone to shift between two play-styles will somehow make them love it. 

The 2.5D idea was cute back when it was introduced but only really because (for some reason) people found novelty in seeing 2D sections reappear in 3D Sonic titles. I was going to say "Recent" Sonic titles but that's absolutely not true. Sonic was still pumping out 2D games on handhelds at the time. 2D never went anywhere. Nowadays, I can't really excuse it anymore.

If you want a 2D game, make a 2D game. If you want a 3D one, make a 3D one.

There's ideas and level design decisions that you can take from the 2D games and apply it to the 3D ones of course. You say that's what you wish to do? That's great! Absolutely, do that! 

Please, just don't take that to mean "We need more 2D in the 3D games cause then we'll get more praise that way!" No. No you won't. Just look at all the Forces threads on here if you're unsure of that. No one who dislikes Forces is throwing it a bone because of the 2D, if anything it's a contributing factor for why it's so bloated and weird for them. 

Get inspired by the level design and how to transfer that into a 3D space. I like the boost but maybe it'd be better if you design a Sonic that doesn't need to blast through your level and  functions better when he's going in a straight line. Perhaps take a clue from how the Classics (and Mania) handled the other characters so that they can come back without the weird as hell excuse of "Shadow's here because Iizuka told the Adventure fans to fuck off" or whatever. Just let them function normally.

When it comes to gameplay, keep things relatively simple. This kitchen sink mentality you have with how Sonic should function is gonna get you killed. Programmers worrying about making Modern Sonic 3D but also 2D WITHIN the 3D but also FULL 2D Classic Sonic with Avatar gadgets and shit... and before it was parkour and ... a werehog... just...

They've got the right idea but this is Sonic Team so they're gonna take it to mean something else entirely. 

[Gabz Girl]

All I care about in that interview is Samba de Amigo on Switch. Sega...

Well that and one thing that stood out is Nakamura saying Sonic Mania was well received because of 2D. HAHAHAHA seriously? No, it was well received because it’s a great game you nincompoops!

God I hope this doesn’t mean they’re sticking to their 3D/2D plan for future Sonic games and not full blown 3D. I still think having Classic Sonic shoe horned into Sonic Forces is unnecessary and I don’t want to see him in a 3D game ever again. 

Ever.

[Sonikko]

>Sonic Mania got great reception because it was 2D

Ok guys, they didn't understand a thing confirmed.

It's so nice to know that Iizuka has his hands in Mania so deep. That gives me hope for the future.

[Multikaris]

I think they’ll try their hands at their own in-house Mania next, probably alongside a less 2D game. And probably fail at it very much so. 

[Sonikko]

3 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

I think they’ll try their hands at their own in-house Mania next, probably alongside a less 2D game. And probably fail at it very much so. 

B-but Forces is their in-house Mania... Remixed stages + new stages... Pls stahp

[Multikaris]

33 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

B-but Forces is their in-house Mania... Remixed stages + new stages... Pls stahp

No, the “”remixed” stages” are treated as actual fucking LOCATIONS in Forces, and there is so far only three of them. 

[Blue Wisp]

19 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

No, the “”remixed” stages” are treated as actual fucking LOCATIONS in Forces, and there is so far only three of them. 

I believe you got ker-prank'd. 

[Remy]

@Jovahexeon Cala Maria Derailing the topic just to call out Jango for something the staff have already spoken about is not acceptable. SSMB isn't here so you can derail threads to score likes catching out members by digging up stuff they said in the past. Not stirring drama and flaming other members is one of the few rules we actually have here so please stand by it.

You've been spoken to about this before, stop.

@Jango I understand what you're trying to say but you've contributing to the derail here too. Drop the stuff from the other week. It's done.

[Flame Lance]

This guy though... trying to make it sound as if Mania was only well-received because it was 2D. I must have imagined the backlash against Sonic 4 or the fact that most people do not want classic Sonic in Forces, nor 2D sections in Modern games.

Oh, and Shadow is there to appeal the Adventure fans! Yes, because THAT is what people really liked and admired those games for. Not the quality Sonic stage gameplay, the multiple characters and stories, the Chao system or anything else that fans have asked for and requested for years. Just throw in Shadow and us Adventure fans will shut up. Heck no to that noise. Shadow being playable is the least they could do.

It sounds like based on what he's saying, they might actually take notes from Mania and try to incorporate what worked into 3D gameplay, but I don't trust that. It's going to be more half-baked "classic" gameplay, sola Sonica forever, and boost hallways with 2D segments. *Yawn* And if they're trying to bring the divided fanbase together, they are failing miserably. Forces has been as polarizing and divisive as just about any other game because the gameplay looks like such a huge downgrade from past games, for one thing. I do hope for the best though that we see amazing 3D Sonic again some day. The blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while...

[Milo]

The comments about looking into Mania and using it as a base for a 3D Sonic game are all ringing pretty damn hollow to me.

Actions speak louder than words, and these words are coming from a studio who haven't been interested in, incorporated, and/or reproduced classic Sonic gameplay or consumer feedback into their games in any meaningful manner. A 3D Sonic game inspired by Mania/the classics would also be an antithesis to their entire approach of what constitutes (3D) Sonic game design as it is anyway. Sonic Team would had to literally educate themselves to not be Sonic Team or hire a new set of designers and directors at best, or be overhauled into an entirely different studio at worst, before being even capable of carrying out the task they're floating around.

Almost any other team out there has that done; people who actually have made a proper new classic Sonic game (Taxman/Stealth/PWG) included. And while Mania might be a 2D game and their only (official) work to date--it still hits, or comes very close to, the bullseye of a good Sonic game and a good Genesis Sonic game than any of Sonic Team's 10+ years of work at the end of the day. Pair them up with a studio/division who are seasoned in 3D games and interested in Genesis Sonic, and I'm sure the resulting collaborative effort, even at its worst-case scenario, would be a Mario Sunshine scenario--a game that needed more time in the oven and misses some beats, but is still a great game that provides the potential of being outclassed by a stellar sequel.

[Clewis]

Quote

From the team's perspective, we're still going to be making 3D games for the audience that likes that style of Sonic - when we see the reactions that Mania got, the entire team sat down and thought it was really interesting, and we should break down what people liked about Mania, and in the future - when we build our 3D games - see what essence we can take from Sonic Mania and put into a 3D world, to give people what they're looking for and that they've found in Sonic Mania.

Whatever "essence" Nakamura's team takes from Mania is just going to be more superficial crap. Nothing fundamentally substantial, just more of what we've gotten since 2011.

You know what I think would be more productive? If there was some sort of active communication channel between Taxman's team and Sonic Team regarding the kind of design philosophies that went into making Mania not just a great Sonic game, but a great game in general. I get that Iizuka acted as a sort of go-between during each project's development, but I don't really see him being all that helpful in communicating how Taxman and co. managed to deliver a proper classic-based experience on their first try compared to any of Sonic Team's recent attempts starting with Sonic 4.

I mean, after games like Lost World and Forces especially, I think some of the higher ups at Sonic Team could really use some pointers regarding game design in general. Stuff like level design, enemy placement, or how Sonic controls in a 3D space really shouldn't be issues this late in the game. Either take some helpful advice from the guys who managed to create the most critically acclaimed Sonic game in years, or stop putting people like Kishimoto in charge of Sonic projects and bring back some of the guys from Generations that, iirc, were put to work on the Mario & Sonic games (Why??).

[Straw Hat]

I guess the thought never crossed Nakamura's mind that the reason people liked Sonic Mania was because it was a 2D Sonic Game done right. Considering his misguided statements about Mania's appeal and them wanting to capitalize on that for future games, things don't bode well for Modern Sonic, from what I'm seeing. Things are going to be just as superficial and uninspired as they are now.

 

7 hours ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

This is the kind of pessimism that just makes me sick. I've been to forums for Jurassic Park, Star Wars, The Simpsons, The Hobbit, Godzilla, and other game series in worse condition than Sonic, and I've never seen negativity so ubiquitous. And it's not just you, and I'm not saying you cant criticize anything. But it's just so many people no matter what, even when it's the best thing we've heard from this team in years. 

Dude, we've heard pretty words like this from Sonic Team in the past. It's nothing new. Unless they actually show us that they're actually pushing this series forward, it's best to put your expectations as low as possible. Because the cold truth is that they themselves will just never learn...

[andrew2]

The most disappointing thing for me is that it really looked like Sonic Team were starting to 'get it' with Sonic Generations. That game is genuinely very well-designed. Seaside Hill in particular had amazing level design in both acts. Act 1 had a nice branching path structure and Act 2 was mostly well-designed 3D with only a couple 2D sections that flowed well with the rest of the stage. Why can't they just design the levels in Forces the same way they designed those levels just a few years ago? Clearly Sonic Team have good designers in their ranks. Did they all just get sacked or something? Same thing visually. Generations (and Unleashed) looked AMAZING back in 2011, so clearly they know how to make nice looking games. I have a feeling Forces had a much smaller budget than Gens (since they seem to be obsessed with reusing assets from that game) and that the wrong lessons were learnt from Lost World, namely that they can cut cost on visuals without people minding. Level design is the biggest confusion though. How can you go from amazing level design  to garbage level design with the same studio so quickly is beyond me. I can only hope that the later levels are better designed, but that hope is not very high. 

 

"2D games are easier to get into"

I think this may explain some of the linear level design decisions for the 3D parts as well. They are trying to emulate this attribute of 2D while completely missing the point. Cuphead is 2D, well-received, and not 'easy to get into'.

[Maxtiis]

10 hours ago, Polkadi said:

A target demographic means an audience you are aiming for, not an audience that is the only one who can play the game.

Meaning, literally anyone can play the game, it doesn't even matter. They just want kids to play it more.

Yeah tell me about it. Remember that big E that's always on the boxes of Sonic games and the store pages like Steam and PSN? Sometimes accompanied with a 10+ like with Forces? I recall that at one time that E meant the game was suitable for everyone not just children, target audience be damned.

I don't know when people began disregarding what the big bold letter on the front of games meant and just began judging suitability based on appearances, but I'm sure Western animation fans might have the answer.

[JezMM]

This was more on the first page than recently, but I think a lot of people are misreading the "easy" comments in the interview.  Not once does he say the game is easy, just that it is easy to get into and understand.  We all know this is true, the virtues of the "one button" control scheme and logical gravity and momentum play for classic Sonic have been highlighted in discussions about them time and time again.

Having said that, I definitely can't denounce the good cause for pessimism that they'll only take away "It's 2D and... he rolls?  I think!?" from it but tbh I don't know much more they could do that wrong than what they're already doing with 2D in non-classic Sonic games.

[Shadowlax]

45 minutes ago, Maxtiis said:

I don't know when people began disregarding what the big bold letter on the front of games meant and just began judging suitability based on appearances, but I'm sure Western animation fans might have the answer.

The 80's with the rise of serialized animation to spawn toys and such. There was certainly animation for children before, disney was and still is the kind of that shit, but about the 80's thats when the saturday morning cartoon and " everything is a brand" market hit hella hard. And everything had a certoon for children, or toys for children even shit that its source material didn't really accommodate for like robo cop

 

[knuckles20]

I think the main probrem is “trying to unite the fandom with one game”.

I don’t care for Mania but I don’t give it much crap because it’s straight up said to be classic nostalgia to the extreme. Therefore it’s easy for me to ignore.

If there’s already a game tailor made Classic Sonic why include him in the Modern games?

The problem with Forces is that so contracdicting it pisses people off. Sure I was initially invested with a plot that was more serious than previous games but Classic Sonic, more 2D in 3D, and create your own instead of the many characters that’s been on the sidelines for years doesn’t make me want to throw $40 on the day of release.

What’s that? The Shadow DLC is meant to appeal to Adventure fans like me? Well maybe I wouuld appreciate it more if it was part of the main game and not made into last minute additions so that critics won’t complain about having a non-Sonic character playable even though it’s been a decade with just Sonic as the only option for a decade, there are fans who are sick of this and the OC creator doesn’t fill that void.

SEGA needs to fully understand their audience and that trying to win all of us over with one game is gonna cause more problems than solutions. 

[pppp]

4 hours ago, andrew2 said:

The most disappointing thing for me is that it really looked like Sonic Team were starting to 'get it' with Sonic Generations. That game is genuinely very well-designed. Seaside Hill in particular had amazing level design in both acts. Act 1 had a nice branching path structure and Act 2 was mostly well-designed 3D with only a couple 2D sections that flowed well with the rest of the stage. Why can't they just design the levels in Forces the same way they designed those levels just a few years ago? Clearly Sonic Team have good designers in their ranks. Did they all just get sacked or something?

Apparently they've been assigned to the Mario & Sonic Olympics games. Why the hell didn't they just send the designers of this game towards that series is beyond me, since it's a waste of the Generations staff.

[Blacklightning]

13 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

I think the main probrem is “trying to unite the fandom with one game”.

In a way, I disagree. We've all said it a lot, but the Sonic fandom is fractured in large part due to the wildly different gameplay schemes he's gone through, to the point that there's really no solid idea of what Sonic should be anymore. Sonic absolutely needs something that can pull at least a large number of people back onto common ground so they can keep building and polishing it - the problem isn't in the idea, but rather the method. By just cramming several different styles into a game verbatim, ironically all they've done is codified these splits in the fandom even further, to the point that whatever's left of Sonic's identity might as well be just some misguided variation of schizophrenia in of itself.

They shouldn't be just tacking on several additional gamestyles at once so much as salvaging desirable traits from his offshoots into a single one and working from there. Everyone says they should use rolling physics in a 3D game for example, yeah? Stuff like that would be a pretty good start.

[Gabz Girl]

On 24/10/2017 at 11:17 AM, pppp said:

Apparently they've been assigned to the Mario & Sonic Olympics games. Why the hell didn't they just send the designers of this game towards that series is beyond me, since it's a waste of the Generations staff.

Omg, this BLOWS my mind.

Sonic Generations, this time around designed by different developers at Sonic Team, does an excellent job with its level design and gameplay. Their hard work is paid off with good reviews and sales. 

Fuck it, let’s not keep them for Sonic Lost World and other future Sonic games. We’ll dump ‘em on Mario & Sonic, a franchise that hasn’t been relevant since 2010. Oh and for that matter, let’s start from scratch again with our gameplay and do something completely different! I’m sure everything will be FINE!

[pppp]

3 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

Omg, this BLOWS my mind.

Sonic Generations, this time around designed by different developers at Sonic Team, does an excellent job with its level design and gameplay. Their hard work is paid off with good reviews and sales. 

Fuck it, let’s not keep them for Sonic Lost World and other future Sonic games. We’ll dump ‘em on Mario & Sonic, a franchise and that hasn’t been relevant since 2010. Oh and for that matter, let’s start from scratch again with our gameplay and do something completely different! I’m sure everything will be FINE!

• Sonic Riders (2006) — Level Designer, Game Mode Designer, Scenario Writer, Story Board Designer, Recording Coordinator
• Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) — Game Designer
• The House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return (2007) — Planner
• Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity (2008) — Game System Designer, Story Plotter, Story Board Designer
• Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games (2009) — Game Designer
• Sonic Generations (2011) — Director
• Sonic Generations (2011) (3DS Version) (2011) — Special Thanks
• Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games (2014) — Director
• Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Summer Olympic Games (3DS Version) (2016) — Director

Hiroshi Miyamoto's resume according to SEGA Retro. Basically he was the big creative force behind the first 2 Riders games. I actually thought the first Riders had really good character driven humor, so I wouldn't mind him writing a main game.

Point is, SEGA is terrible at managing their staff. In other news the Earth is round.

[Sonikko]

7 hours ago, pppp said:

• Sonic Riders (2006) — Level Designer, Game Mode Designer, Scenario Writer, Story Board Designer, Recording Coordinator
• Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) — Game Designer
• The House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return (2007) — Planner
• Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity (2008) — Game System Designer, Story Plotter, Story Board Designer
• Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games (2009) — Game Designer
• Sonic Generations (2011) — Director
• Sonic Generations (2011) (3DS Version) (2011) — Special Thanks
• Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games (2014) — Director
• Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Summer Olympic Games (3DS Version) (2016) — Director

Hiroshi Miyamoto's resume according to SEGA Retro. Basically he was the big creative force behind the first 2 Riders games. I actually thought the first Riders had really good character driven humor, so I wouldn't mind him writing a main game.

Point is, SEGA is terrible at managing their staff. In other news the Earth is round.

Well unlike Nakamura he has at least one good Sonic game in his resume. 

I'm too lazy to check, but who worked on level design in Generations? And what else did they do?

[pppp]

12 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

Well at least unlike Nakamura he has at least one good Sonic game in his resume. 

I'm too lazy to check, but who worked on level design in Generations? And what else did they do?

The lead game designer of Gens was the system designer of Lost World apparently. He was also a daytime level designer for Unleashed according to Mobygames:

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/yoshinobu-uba/credits/developerId,413266/

Also allow me to quote from an older post of Yeow:

Quote

Generations:

Director - Hiroshi Miyamoto

Lead Game Designer - Yoshinobu Uba

Game Designers - Daisuke Shimizu, Katsuyuki Shigihara, Utako Yoshino, Takamasa Usui, Takayuki Okada, Kanano Yamaguchi, Haruhiko Kashiwazaki

Lost World:

Director - Morio Kishimoto

Level Designers - Natsuha Matsubara, Takayuki Okada, Kanano Yamaguchi, Rei Hata, Yuma Matsunaga, Jyunpei Ootsu, Takahiro Ono

The credits roll of Generations doesn't specify level designers, so I'm assuming the Game designers are who did that. Also apparently the Lost World level designers are Kishimoto's personal crew since they were also the ones behind Colors level design:

Quote

Colors:

Director and Lead Game Designer - Morio Kishimoto

Lead Planner - Harumasa Nakajima

Planners - Shintaro Kai, Takeshi Yamazaki, Jyunpei Ootsu, Mitsuru Osakada, Kiyoteru Mizuhara

Lead Level Designer - Takayuki Okada

Level Designers - Natsuha Matsubara, Takahiro Ono, Katsuyuki Shigihara, Kanano Yamaguchi, Midori Iwabachi

It's pretty safe to assume that Kishimoto is using this same team for Forces as well.

My guess is that when Miyamoto moved to the Mario & Sonic series he took Uba and some others with him. Yamaguchi and Okada stuck around for Lost World, so they might still be involved in Forces.

When Forces comes out we'll have the final puzzle piece to pinpoint why the huge decline in level design from Gens to Forces.

Iizuka, please switch it around. Put Kishimoto on Mario & Sonic where he won't bother anyone and put Miyamoto as a game director(and his Gens team) and Nakamura as producer and scenario director. Writing can be a joint effort between the 2 why not.

[Sonikko]

23 minutes ago, pppp said:

The lead game designer of Gens was the system designer of Lost World apparently. He was also a daytime level designer for Unleashed according to Mobygames:

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/yoshinobu-uba/credits/developerId,413266/

Also allow me to quote from an older post of Yeow:

The credits roll of Generations doesn't specify level designers, so I'm assuming the Game designers are who did that. Also apparently the Lost World level designers are Kishimoto's personal crew since they were also the ones behind Colors level design:

It's pretty safe to assume that Kishimoto is using this same team for Forces as well.

My guess is that when Miyamoto moved to the Mario & Sonic series he took Uba and some others with him. Yamaguchi and Okada stuck around for Lost World, so they might still be involved in Forces.

When Forces comes out we'll have the final puzzle piece to pinpoint why the huge decline in level design from Gens to Forces.

Iizuka, please switch it around. Put Kishimoto on Mario & Sonic where he won't bother anyone and put Miyamoto as a game director(and his Gens team) and Nakamura as producer and scenario director. Writing can be a joint effort between the 2 why not.

Thanks.

Well to be completely honest, the level design staff is more or less consistent between the games, so I stand corrected, and the issue is not with level designers, but with direction and game designers.

Anyone would perform badly with a crappy direction.

[pppp]

1 minute ago, Sonikko said:

Thanks.

Well to be completely honest, the level design staff is more or less consistent between the games, so I stand corrected, and the issue is not with level designers, but with direction and game designers.

Anyone would perform badly with a crappy direction.

It is true however that there are quite a few game designers from Gens that never worked in Kishimoto's games. Generations having immensely better level design than Kishimoto''s games strongly suggests that the ones that departed from the main games after Gens also had an impact. Less talented team is just as harmful as crappy direction.

My bet is, it's both problems happening at once.