Euro Gamer Interview Nakamura on Forces, Mania and the Future of Sonic

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

I think this would be a good opportunity to try a classic style sonic game in full 3d with the classic characters and all. Maybe give classic eggman dialogue and add classic tails knuckles and any as playable characters. Like a 3d sonic game as if it was made for the sega Saturn.

Then use the modern characters for a rush style 2d game. That is, if they don't bungle it up.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, knuckles20 said:

Or they can actually improve the 3D and not continue on the path of “the let’s make everything all about classic era”.

It's possible to get rid of "Modern Sonic" but still make 3D games/games that are not focused on the classic era.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, knuckles20 said:

Or they can actually improve the 3D and not continue on the path of “the let’s make everything all about classic era”.

You really think scrapping Modern Sonic would solve anything? It would cause more fans to leave and raise more amniosity within the fandom.

I may not care about the classic era but I don’t have a problem with it existing with games that fits my tastes. 

Why is it such a problem that some of us want actual 3D, multiple playable characters and a plot that wasn’t made by 5 year olds for 5 year olds?

Why is it so hard to accept a sub series for Classia era and another for Adventure/Modern?

That is the only way I want Sonic to emulate Mario: Have a different sub series for fans of particular interests so we don’t keep fighting for territory all the time.

 

 

Well hey, don't listen to me. I'm really just stating my opinion, which by the way has little to do with whether or not I actually like Modern Sonic himself (I do like a few Modern Sonic games. One of them is among my favorites). Its just that Modern Sonic's reputation has been so bad, a fresh start with a different development team (at least partially) and already popular design would probably work wonders for the franchise. 

Again its just my opinion and I don't think its remotely likely to happen at all... but moving forward with Classic Sonic gameplay and aesthetic for both 2D and 3D could really reinvigorate the franchise going forward among the general gaming public; just look at how Mania was received. There's nothing stopping Sonic from achieving that in 3D and on a bigger scale with full marketing resources..... except the his current handlers.

To me its irrelevant if all Sonic fans are on the same page. They never will be because they have 2-3 different conceptions of what Sonic is. What I'm saying is, that instead of continuing down the same path with mediocre to bad games, or revisiting a former path that never really worked (Adventure, '06), reboot with a fresh team and commit to a singular identity for Sonic, one that can appeal to a wide audience regardless if all Sonic fans can agree on liking it or not. A 3D Classic-inspired Sonic can easily be that.

Again, my two cents. Ignore me because SEGA surely isn't listening to me either. Modern probably isn't going anywhere short of some disastrous result with this game or the next one. Hopefully the franchise won't be dead by then. Seriously. Sonic isn't getting unlimited chances at being a AAA series. Sales have been declining for some time now. 

[Almar]

All they need to do is just build a Sonic game from Sonic's levels in Adventure One. Who has badmouthed them?

[Gabz Girl]

11 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

But is this really going to bomb harder than 06 and Rise of Lyric? Is it that unplayable and bug ridden? Is this really going to be so disastrous that it ends the brand as it has existed for nearly two decades now? 

It’s definitely not going to be as Godawful as Sonic 06, no Sonic game will ever be that poorly designed and rushed. Being a potentially mediocre game however is still not a good thing. Sonic deserves better.

Also, Sonic 06 a bomb? Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought that game sold really well on the Xbox 360. It even got a Platinum hit box art! 

 

 

[Diogenes]

5 hours ago, Almar said:

All they need to do is just build a Sonic game from Sonic's levels in Adventure One. Who has badmouthed them?

I have, and will again. While you can fairly argue that SA's level design and mechanics are the least bad of the series' 3D games, it's still the progenitor of a lot of the series' problems, like linearity, automation/dash pad abuse, flat and hallway-like level design, and the spammable spindash negating any need to build or maintain speed. Even if these issues aren't as bad in SA as they are in the modern games, they should still be trying to do better than copying their shaky early attempts at 3D.

[Osmium]

6 hours ago, Almar said:

All they need to do is just build a Sonic game from Sonic's levels in Adventure One. Who has badmouthed them?

If you were just talking about Windy Hill Beta then I would agree. 

[knuckles20]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

I have, and will again. While you can fairly argue that SA's level design and mechanics are the least bad of the series' 3D games, it's still the progenitor of a lot of the series' problems, like linearity, automation/dash pad abuse, flat and hallway-like level design, and the spammable spindash negating any need to build or maintain speed. Even if these issues aren't as bad in SA as they are in the modern games, they should still be trying to do better than copying their shaky early attempts at 3D.

Yeah they should improve the formula to fix work the issues people have with it and not try to mask it with “Oh look there’s 2D sections in this game! Praise us!”.

[Meta77]

7 hours ago, Almar said:

All they need to do is just build a Sonic game from Sonic's levels in Adventure One. Who has badmouthed them?

 when it first came out it was highly praised.  it was a masterpiece of its time and people loved it. Only thing is it didn't age well at all. Regardless it was a amazing game in a shift from straight line 2d to 3d. I feel another adventure game would sell well a botw sized free roam sonic world would be fun

[Xenos]

19 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I have, and will again. While you can fairly argue that SA's level design and mechanics are the least bad of the series' 3D games, it's still the progenitor of a lot of the series' problems, like linearity, automation/dash pad abuse, flat and hallway-like level design, and the spammable spindash negating any need to build or maintain speed. Even if these issues aren't as bad in SA as they are in the modern games, they should still be trying to do better than copying their shaky early attempts at 3D.

I would go further than least bad, and argue that Adventure had of aspects of it's design that were good.

It's true it did have a lot of the pitfalls you mentioned that have echoed throughout 3D Sonic games since, but there's a lot of nuance in Adventure's flow that they haven't captured starting with literally it's sequel. What separates Adventure from most of the other games the most for are curves. Just curves. The way Sonic runs through them, the way he can naturally maneuver in them whether he's on the ground, wall, or ceiling. (This doesn't mean Adventure's controls were acceptable a lot of the time, naturally I'd want them to fix that) And levels like Emerald Coast, Speed Highway, and even the first half of Ice Cap which is pretty slow paced have a lot of different paths or reasons to go off the beaten path and explore a little. And the best part is these alternate paths didn't take control away from the player.

The examples would be small, like running up the side of the skyscraper in Speed Highway to bypass a slow platforming section, but they really add up for me. Not to mention, this is probably the only game where Tails and Knuckles could easily function in the same stages Sonic had, they even had a dedicated roll button!

It's not a perfect game by any means, and they could likely do better, but I saw a lot of potential in the game personally.

[pppp]

On 24/10/2017 at 2:53 PM, pppp said:

It's pretty safe to assume that Kishimoto is using this same team for Forces as well.

Sorry to bring this up from page 2 of this topic but the development speculation topic seems to have spoilers so I don't wanna go in there.

Turns out I was wrong with my assumption:

 

So yeah the level designers of Forces are newbies. I honestly am baffled. "How about getting Uba-san to bring out more great stuff like he did in Gens?" "Nah let's use new people that never worked on these."

Mystery solved.

[knuckles20]

On 10/24/2017 at 10:14 PM, Diogenes said:

It's possible to get rid of "Modern Sonic" but still make 3D games/games that are not focused on the classic era.

Why the hell do we need to get rid of Modern Sonic? There are fans who actually prefer him over Classic. You do know most of the initial hate from Forces was the reveal of Classic Sonic. Modern Sonic can stick around in his own games. If Classic is all you want, say hello to Mania and it's most likely sequels

The more I see people wanting MS out the more I feel that Generations was a mistake.

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

Why the hell do we need to get rid of Modern Sonic? 

It's tainted.

Yes, sure, it has its fans, but I'd guess fewer than you'd expect. And the Modern continuity is a mess, in continuity, in tone, in gameplay, in practically everything. If something's broken, it needs to be fixed, or it needs to be thrown out. Personally I think it's beyond fixing at this point.

And, again, getting rid of Modern Sonic doesn't require focusing entirely on classic Sonic. The series could move on and try to create a new interpretation of Sonic, one that's not trying to be Modern, Adventure, Classic, or any existing label.

[Osmium]

I question what we mean by getting rid of "modern Sonic". What does that even mean? Modern Sonic is just a design that exists beyond post-1998 games. 

[Razule]

1 minute ago, ShroomZed said:

I question what we mean by getting rid of "modern Sonic". What does that even mean? Modern Sonic is just a design that exists beyond post-1998 games. 

I'd assume it means everything Sonic has been since he gained green eyez

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Just now, Razule said:

I'd assume it means everything Sonic has been since he gained green eyez

I'm pretty sure the majority of the fanbase isn't that petty to extend it to even his design.

[Osmium]

1 minute ago, Razule said:

I'd assume it means everything Sonic has been since he gained green eyez

That doesn't really narrow it down. There's been like 6 million gameplay and tonal changes since SA. It's frankly meaningless to talk about getting rid of modern Sonic when it represents so much and ultimately nothing at the same time. 

[Razule]

Just now, Diogenes. said:

I'm pretty sure the majority of the fanbase isn't that petty to extend it to even his design.

Oh. Well then what specifically? Everything besides that?

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

On 10/30/2017 at 6:47 PM, Razule said:

Oh. Well then what specifically? Everything besides that?

Ignoring that there is no evidence to suggest the majority of the fan base want to do away with what Modern Sonic looks like.  Not only is there really no logistical point to scrapping Modern Sonic's likeness, this suggestion doesn't even address that Modern Sonic has had more than one gameplay style. Getting rid of the design of the character himself does NOTHING really affecting the games' overall quality when there's all these other shifts and components.

Let's be honest,  we're at a point where getting rid of Modern Sonic runs the risk of doing more damage than necessary. 

[knuckles20]

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's tainted.

Yes, sure, it has its fans, but I'd guess fewer than you'd expect. And the Modern continuity is a mess, in continuity, in tone, in gameplay, in practically everything. If something's broken, it needs to be fixed, or it needs to be thrown out. Personally I think it's beyond fixing at this point.

So just focus on your precious Classic Sonic and leave Modern Sonic alone.

[Diogenes]

How many times do I have to say that this isn't about classic Sonic. This is about Modern Sonic being a mess. That's true regardless about how I feel about classic Sonic, and it's why this series gets so much shit from people who aren't even in the fanbase (either anymore or at all).

[knuckles20]

Modern Sonic doesn't need to go away, he need to be improved so critics can stop whining about the games being nothing like the classics. If anything I find the classic era more overrated than any Sonic game ever.

One of the big problems SEGA has is instead of improving something they just cut back to the bare minimum and the games suffered from it by becoming unique to generic and repetitive.

[Mark1]

See if this was discussed back after the Dreamcast games, I’d have disagreed with @Diogenes. But the inconsistency of later games, especially from a story perspective where everything seems to be getting retconned in favour of a new game, shows Sega’s incompetence at good lore. 

And everything seems complicated, especially following Forces. Now, make no mistake while I do appreciate some of the character designs in the modern world (especially Sonic himself), I cannot see how they can continue having the franchise make more sense yet keep everything as it is. 

Everything is becoming more drab and uninteresting following Sonic Team’s own lack of care shown in Forces. 

3D Sonic is better off taking a hiatus (not like what happened between Lost World and Forces - I mean a proper break to make 3D Sonic interesting and fun again) or sent to a team who are actually passionate and know what they’re doing. I really hate to compare to 3D Mario...but the level of enjoyment made creating the latest game is there. It wasn’t in Forces. It literally felt like a ‘forced’ project. Difference is night and day.

It’d be nice to see ‘Modern’ Sonic games not be a laughing stock anymore. But I can’t see that changing anytime soon if we still have the current Sega/ST. 

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

Sonic won't stop sucking until someone drags his Modern self, with all of his concepts, behind the toolshed and puts him out of his misery. In 2006, he requested it. In 2014, he was begging for it. In 2017, he's attempting to force the trigger. 

Modern Sonic's reputation has turned into a wildfire in the franchise that SEGA should be desperately trying to put out. 

 

Edit: Though I wrote this insignificant post in jest, I really do think it'd be a strong symbolic move for SEGA to trash Modern along with the development team that has been dragging him along all these years, and then replace them both with a different Sonic and different dev team. Classic of course would be a great choice since he's always been successful, but it doesn't have to be the same one we once knew.

It would be an important move for the brand to assure people that those days of Modern Sonic games being all over the place in concept and quality are finally gone. 

 

 

[knuckles20]

Seprating Sonic into two forms was a mistake.