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Sonic Forces demo- Green Hill (Modern Sonic gameplay)

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15 minutes ago, Autosaver said:

On Youtube, someone mentioned that Hardlight (Sonic Dash) is helping develop Sonic Forces. Some stuff makes sense if that is true.

I think they're just helping out with the PC port, like how Steam credits Devil's Details as a developer for Generations.

Although I can't imagine how bad a shape this game must have been in if Sega actually did ask Hardlight to help out with development. No offense to the Hardlight devs, but their experience in designing Sonic-themed endless runners is quite apparent as far as level design goes (if that's what they were asked to contribute towards, of course).

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Played the demo. Let me start out by saying that I hate the cube and lighting wispons. It breaks the flow of the avatar level. I found the avatar to be alittle flimsy to control. Classic's battle was ok and Modern's level was kind of there.

Honestly I would mind waiting a bit to get the game. I'm not as worried to try finding the game like I am with Odyseey this friday.

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I'm just nitpicking at this point, but you know how Unleashed HD and Generations let you switch between regular and goofy stances while grinding by holding and releasing the Crouch button? The Avatar can't do that. They'll still crouch when you press the button, but they won't jump with a 180 when you let go. It was a pointless feature, but I'll miss it all the same.

Also, I managed to slow down enough by jumping to switch directions and grind back to the start of the rails. In the process, I found that if you're grinding backwards and jump, regardless of whether you provide a directional input or not, you'll jump forwards.

Finally, on the Wispon selection screen, you can filter Wispons by what Wisp they use with Y. I think this confirms that multiple Wispons will use the same Wisp, because there'd be no point to this feature otherwise.

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39 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Either that or there's another game being developed consecutively. Hard to say at this point. 

Oh, that would restore my faith in them. As a long time supporter of SEGA and Sonic Team, it has been difficult for me to understand how they could have regressed to this kind of output after building upon Unleashed, Colors, and Generations. Those were not award winning games by any means but they were good fun in good portions, and an upgrade on the early 3d titles. Unleashed in particular really had the feel that Sonic Team cared (for 1/2 the game) about making Sonic fun again, even though the game had the filler problem. Generations was like a love letter to fans and promise for a better future.

....But then this??? Its such a massive downgrade that I'm having a hard time seeing how they seem to have said "eh, f**k that" to all the lessons they learned in that time. And not just Sonic Team, but SEGA HQ as well. I'm far more of a fan of the classic gameplay and want a traditional 3D platformer for Sonic, but the boost games at least saved Sonic from oblivion. Now, we're left feeling that short streak was a fluke and sinking fast once again. Does the company have to allow Sonic to bottom out before it gets serious about resurrecting Sonic? Maybe we overestimate them and they don't care about him as much as we've ever thought. How can one of the best selling franchises with one of the most famous mascots of all time be treated so recklessly?  

But to your theory: though I hope so, it seems more likely that this is it for their big budget Sonic title for now. Maybe there were other plans on the table but this is what we're getting until they go back to the drawing board again. Or maybe Forces will sell enough among the deviant art crowd to justify continuation. I sort of think it'll do okay in both sales and reviews. Nov 7th will be an important date for Sonic. 

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3 hours ago, SatAMhog said:

I've played the demo, and here's my thoughts...

Classic Sonic--He's essentially the same he was in Generations.  It was funny hearing Eggman in Japanese and I had a fun time dodging Eggman's projectiles for the minute I got.  The controls were fine and responsive.

Modern Sonic- I LOVED the boost...mowing down robots has never been more fun.XD  Sonic Rush/Rush Adventure are my favorite 2D games, so this was right at home for me.  I honestly didn't have an issue with controls...Sonic responded to my commands and button prompts and moved where I wanted him to go.

Avatar-I was afraid given the response...but I honestly had the most fun using the Avatar.  I LOVE THE FLAMETHROWER.  Emo Rabbit + Flamethrower was awesome sauce and the brief grinding segments with him not to mention the rope swinging was awesome.  Now, he is a little slippery using the flamethrower but that's when I was first using him.  After a few tries, I got the hang of it and had a blast.XD  I haven't yet gotten Clark Kent Wolf.

Honestly, I can see the problem with "narrow tunnels syndrome" but I honestly didn't get that with either Modern Sonic or the Avatar(Classic Sonic was a 2D boss fight).  I played each at least six times to get a hold of anything that might strike me as an issue controls or otherwise.  The game plays just fine, it's beautiful on the Switch and I look forward to November.   The only problem I could see is maybe level variation but seeing the levels we've gotten, the soundtrack and now actually playing it(one minute at a time lol)I'm fine with it.

Pros-

Gameplay is fun and easy to get into for either character.

Soundtrack is awesome(save for Classic Sonic...I'm kinda eh on that)thus far.

Avatar is a cool new customization feature to play as the character you want to.

Controls are responsive and solid.

Flamethrower Emo Bunny(unofficial pro lol)

NEGATIVES(rawr)

Demo is one minute long per play...what the heck Sega?

 The Avatar can take a few tries to get into but is fine once you get the controls.  That may be a negative depending on the player(I'm not knocking anybody...I'm just saying it may not be everyone's cup of tea.  I'm just fine with the Avatar).

Wow thats the first positive thing ive seen from the demo

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18 minutes ago, Tails spin said:

Now that it was mention. Yeah the flamethrower was fun to use especially since I got to use the burst wisp.

Bbut the flamethrower also screams a cop out to facing the robots

Yeah, but Eggman is lazy...his robots are a dime a dozen in this game which explains why they're so easy to defeat.  I mean, he has to fight to keep whatever territory he has from the Resistance...Infinite is his trump card and the one keeping the Resistance from gaining any ground.  To be serious though, I can understand the robots not being a challenge and wanting them to at least fire a projectile...if you stand long enough, they'll fire at you but it takes them a few seconds.

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The thing about boost games is that enemies simply have no time to react. By the time they even see Sonic they're getting headbutted into oblivion. Which makes it all the more odd to me a lot of the avatar's levels consist of cutting through actual hordes of them to advance through the level when...they don't do shit really.

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1 minute ago, Shaddy the guy said:

This is a bad demo. Forces is probably ok, but this demo is fuckin' duuuuuumb. The one minute time limit is stupid, because it limits the people who need a bit of time to get into the game, and the people who are already speedrunning it have made the levels look even shorter than they already were. They should have chosen different levels, too, because these are about the three worst choices you could have picked for the game. The avatar should have had their GHZ, or Park Avenue. Classic should have had Casino Forest, and Modern should have had City Heights. I'm not making excuses for Forces' level design anymore, it's basic and bad and I get that, I repeat, I get that, I repeat, we do not have to keep saying the same thing over and over, but pretty much every stage featured it less interesting than another one that that character has. Casino Forest actually is expansive as a level. City heights actually requires some input from Sonic, and both of the Avatar's levels ask more from the player and have more routes to travel than Space Port does. At this point I have no fuckin idea how the game's progression is, and I can't say which levels are early and which aren't, the discrepancy between their designs doesn't help, but I can $100% tell you they've made nothing but mistakes when showing this off, only for it to look even less deep than it's already-shallow design allows.

The worst thing is, I'm sure it'll be fine. I know I'm gonna have fun with this thing, and I'll probably be stuck in a few more dumbass arguments about why nonlinear design in the classics was just a way to save resources and won't matter in a game that's as long as it needs to be instead of having to rely on replay value to get someone's money's worth, but god this makes me feel fucking stupid for liking it.

I understand the feeling...the one minute time limit is a big negative to me.  What happened to the traditional demos they used to put out?  I  can see maybe they want to see players get to the goal as fast as possible but one minute?  At least give us five!

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I stand by my initial assessment that this game was not designed with us in mind. (us as in those of us who were looking for the next step in 3D Sonic - and saw Unleashed and Gens and even Colors as stepping stones).

 

This isn't the usual problem where Sonic Team makes an attempt, but horribly misjudges something or overshoots/over corrects what it was they were attempting to fix in the first-place. This isn't the result of mishandled feedback or a lack of understanding about what the community wants out of a Sonic game.

For whatever reason (probably a complete shift toward catering to a different market) Sonic Forces makes absolutely no attempt to do anything that the majority of us expected it to do. As in not only did they not improve on what was laid down before them, but that they didn't even try to do so. That was clearly never their intention from the start. Forces is more restrictive, more funneling and more outright automated than anything we've seen out of the boost formula. It pays no mind to any of the feedback from Unleashed and Gens and instead only seeks to craft a fun looking, more accessible experience.

 

I think Forces will do fine on a sales standpoint. The mainstream Sonic Team Games have sold exactly what should have been expected of them (LW was actually among if not the best 3rd party platformer sales wise on the console at the time). So its not like sales are falling off a cliff like some people like to call out. But it almost feels... dirty that Sonic Team could keep us waiting for all these years, only to push out something that isn't anything anybody asked for.

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The one minute time limit doesn't even matter because you can basically finish the level before it ends. It's only there to make the levels seem longer than they are to the general populace, like how the gameplay videos that start/stop just after/before the actual levels do, and the official clips of only 30 seconds, are intended to do.

Remember the time when the official previewers for Sonic Forces weren't allowed to finish the level and reach Shadow in Sunset Heights, but then everyone at E3 managed to show it off with their own footage? It's pretty transparent, honestly...

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8 hours ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

Time Limits have never been fun in anything ever. I'm pretty sure most will agree with that.

Where on earth did you get this rediculously strange claim?

8 hours ago, Limit Breaker Diamond said:

These "I want Forces to fail" comments are becoming really anmoying.

If you want Forces to fail, very well, but you know it won't. If you check any place rather than SSMB, you will know tons of people like the game.

 

And I'm pretty sure that if Forces was to fail, SEGA would either take a major change in how Sonic plays (unknows if for the better or the worst) or just erase Modern completely and stick to 2D.

You say all that like its a bad thing...

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4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I stand by my initial assessment that this game was not designed with us in mind. (us as in those of us who were looking for the next step in 3D Sonic - and saw Unleashed and Gens and even Colors as stepping stones).

 

This isn't the usual problem where Sonic Team makes an attempt, but horrible misjudges something or overshoots/over corrects what it was they were attempting to fix in the first-place. This isn't the result of mishandled feedback or a lack of understanding about what the community wants out of a Sonic game.

For whatever reason (probably a complete shift toward catering to a different market) Sonic Forces makes absolutely no attempt to do anything that the majority of us expected us to. As in not only did they not improve on what was laid down before them, but that they didn't even try to do so. That was clearly never their intention from the start. Forces is more restrictive, more funneling and more outright automated than anything we've seen out of the boost formula. It pays no mind to any of the feedback from Unleashed and Gens and instead only seeks to craft a fun looking, more accessible experience.

 

I think Forces will do fine on a sales standpoint. The mainstream Sonic Team Games have sold exactly what should have been expected of them (LW was actually among if not the best 3rd party platformer sales wise on the console at the time). So its not like sales are falling off a cliff like some people like to call out. But it almost feels... dirty that Sonic Team could keep us waiting for all these years, only to push out something that isn't anything anybody asked for.

This is partly what I've suspected as well. I think the real gamble here is that they think they've found enough of a new base to cater to such that they don't have to be "restricted" by traditional Sonic gameplay anymore. If Forces sells well, I think Sonic Team will definitely move forward with a different philosophy for Sonic games and leave the traditional gameplay for smaller projects. Sonic Team has known for years that they can't design games like that anymore and if they're successful here they won't have to try.

The other thing that makes sense is that they were simply short on time after canceling an earlier prototype (we all know the rumors by now) and wanted to slap a game together that would make everyone happy. 

Maybe both happened? Iizuka has mentioned before that he thinks Sonic fans are unpleasable (forgot the interview/link).

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3 minutes ago, SatAMhog said:

I understand the feeling...the one minute time limit is a big negative to me.  What happened to the traditional demos they used to put out?  I  can see maybe they want to see players get to the goal as fast as possible but one minute?  At least give us five!

Or just don't have one. I can't name a single point where having a time limit in a game has improved my experience. The most is something like an escape sequence in Metroid, but those are always piss-easy anyway.

Not sure what you mean by "traditional demos" though. I mean back in the 90s they used to give away entire thirds of games as demo content, but I think for Forces that would just breed more people yelling the same thing over and over when the main problems with the game turn out to, surprise surprise, continue being problems. Not to say that hasn't happened already, I'm just tired of it.

3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

For whatever reason (probably a complete shift toward catering to a different market) Sonic Forces makes absolutely no attempt to do anything that the majority of us expected us to. As in not only did they not improve on what was laid down before them, but that they didn't even try to do so. That was clearly never their intention from the start. Forces is more restrictive, more funneling and more outright automated than anything we've seen out of the boost formula. It pays no mind to any of the feedback from Unleashed and Gens and instead only seeks to craft a fun looking, more accessible experience.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Forces is Sonic for normies. Physics complaints, linearity, even level design itself to a degree, these are all problems that are mostly exclusive to the hardcore fanbase. But control, structure, and specifically punishing level design are what this game's audience care about. The game is designed for everyone who thinks SA2 was the last good Sonic game, and didn't have any lapse in that until Sonic Generations, with emphasis on SA2. It's got linear, unchallenging levels like SA2, a more in-depth and """dark""" story like SA2, lets you play as fucking Shadow, and just combines elements of Sonic Generations because that was the most recent acclaimed Sonic game. This extends to reviewers too.

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6 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Or just don't have one. I can't name a single point where having a time limit in a game has improved my experience. The most is something like an escape sequence in Metroid, but those are always piss-easy anyway.

Not sure what you mean by "traditional demos" though. I mean back in the 90s they used to give away entire thirds of games as demo content, but I think for Forces that would just breed more people yelling the same thing over and over when the main problems with the game turn out to, surprise surprise, continue being problems. Not to say that hasn't happened already, I'm just tired of it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Forces is Sonic for normies. Physics complaints, linearity, even level design itself to a degree, these are all problems that are mostly exclusive to the hardcore fanbase. But control, structure, and specifically punishing level design are what this game's audience care about. The game is designed for everyone who thinks SA2 was the last good Sonic game, and didn't have any lapse in that until Sonic Generations, with emphasis on SA2. It's got linear, unchallenging levels like SA2, a more in-depth and """dark""" story like SA2, lets you play as fucking Shadow, and just combines elements of Sonic Generations because that was the most recent acclaimed Sonic game. This extends to reviewers too.

That may have been the attempt, but it's not entirely working. Several previews have called out the levels for being short and shallow. 

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6 hours ago, Swing said:

But gameplay? That is probably one of the least important things for most fans.   

What is this? Are you really saying people don't want gameplay in thier game series that is very well known for having outstanding gameplay when it first came out? Would sonic has stuck around at all had his gameplay been crap at first?!

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25 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

 

Not sure what you mean by "traditional demos" though. I mean back in the 90s they used to give away entire thirds of games as demo content, but I think for Forces that would just breed more people yelling the same thing over and over when the main problems with the game turn out to, surprise surprise, continue being problems. Not to say that hasn't happened already, I'm just tired of it.

 

I mean the kinds of demos they'd include in magazines like the Final Fantasy X-2 demo in a physical disk where there is no time limit and you had an actual snippet of the story and bosses to fight at the end.  This demo is fun for me but it was pretty short with that pesky 1 minute time limit.  I remember being EXCITED for that Final Fantasy X-2 demo...FFX was a big thing for me and the sequel had me excited back then so being able to play the demo was an exciting thing for me.  Nowadays, if we do get a demo for anything, it's online and MAYBE a short snippet of gameplay.

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https://twitter.com/SONIC_FORCES_JP/status/923373347181707264

"Sonic force, Nintendo Switch ™ version and PlayStation® 4th Edition download trial version released! Take a look at, please experience "Sonic force, high speed action on this occasion."

Basically it's apparently out on PS4 too, but IDK if you have to have a JP account for that one as well. Dunno about XB1, but if it's Japan centric, they may not have bothered with that platform.

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I farted around in the demo for a bit, and even though it's been a while since I played Generations, I swear Sonic controls worse here. He's weirdly sticky to the middle of the path, and using the boost in mid-air seems almost too effective. Like you can practically fly with it and blow past chunks of the level, there's no real incentive to interact with anything. Also I sure do love enemies that just stand at you, a problem that's not unique to this but feels almost excessive here.

I can't quite articulate what I don't like about the avatar stage. It doesn't have any real flow, I guess? I think part of the problem is the strict time limit doesn't really make me feel like I have a chance to play around with the wisp powers and really get a grasp on what I can do. Classic Sonic is alright, I guess. The cutscene with Eggman drains so much time that you don't really get to play around much in the second phase. Also hate how rings vanish on impact.

So in addition to thinking Forces mostly looks bad I think it controls gross too. Neat. 

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