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Soniman

So we're really in a second "Dark Age" huh??

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It kinda just hit me that, yeah...we're back here again lmao.

Now, people were saying stuff like this when SLW failed to make a splash, I was willing to brush it off ass a experiment that didnt pan out and Sonic Team would bounce back soon enough. But then we got the Boom initiative, a colossal failure from start to finish resulting in the worst reviewed AND worst selling 3D Sonic game game, a bad 3DS version, a mediocre sequel, a cancelled comic series and a soon to be cancelled Cartoon. Not EVERYTHING about it was terrible but I can confidently say that it did more bad then good for the series, But even then I was willing to write it off as a failed experiment not made by Sonic Team directly.

And then there's Forces, the culmination of 4 years of work winding up a confused mess of a product unable to make any visible improvements to the 7/10 at best, 6 year old game its obviously trying to copy. A downgrade in every concevable way, I dont even think there's much I can say at this point about it, its just...bad. Most fans dont like it, most regular critics havent been warm to it either, all in all its looking ot be yet another failure.

Sure theres Mania, and thats great and all, but just like Sonic Rush before it, a good-great side game (not made by Sonic Team) by itself cant eclipse the bad rep the main games are providing. Its a little depressing when you consider the idea of waiting 3-5 years for a new Sonic and its bad, this Franchise is in a dire state and Sonic Team is in need of a desperate rerstructuring if its to get back on its feet for more then 3 years this time.

What do you think? Am I jumping the gun in saying this??

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I wouldn't say that we are in another dark age. At least not as a horrible as the ones like with Sonic 06 or Sonic Boom. I do not think that Forces will be a down right terrible game. But it will more of a mediocre one and something only a few people will enjoy. 

The only thing that we should worry about, is where will Modern Sonic go from here? If Sonic Forces will turn out as a flop, which I highly doubt, since this game will be released on 4 different consoles, than Sega will probably go again one step back with new ideas and modern gameplay and let once again nostalgia be the driving force for this series.

That I think will be the worst scenario that will happen, if Sonic Forces sell under 1 Mio copies. Than I think Sega will let Modern Sonic sit once more on the sideline for a while.  

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Having had the opportunity to play both games, Forces is definitely a better game than Boom, a number of critics have warmed up to it, even IGN, and when you step foot outside here you'll find that most fans are liking the game. However, this does not mean the game is a masterpiece in any way - there are huge flaws with its level design, the gameplay for Modern and Classic is old and tired, and there is excessive automation (a problem I have found in both new Sonic games). While the game might be average at best, the fact that it is being released outside of Nintendo almost guarantees that it will sell better than Lost World and Boom.

 

 

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I think you're going to have to wait for the reviews and public reception of release-version Forces before calling this one.  It may yet be that Forces does a good enough job of disguising how terrible its gameplay is to fool casual reviewers and players who don't analyse the mechanics or try to push the boundaries.  The fandom may know better, but fandoms are rarely a good barometer of true public opinion.  Where are the mainstream sites dissecting Forces's mechanics?

Publicly, Mania and the entertaining social media are doing a good job at putting a positive spin on Sonic.  When the entire world is once again ordering Sonic to die, then we'll be in a true dark age.

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Let’s not jump to conclusions just yet lol. I think it’s a bit too early to say it’s another Dark Age. >.>

Like others here, I don’t think Sonic Forces will be as bad as Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom. However, it might end up with a similar Metacritic score to Sonic Lost World, perhaps a bit lower even. And that would not be an accomplishment. If a game that has supposedly been in the making for 4 years still ends up reviewing less than satisfactory, you screwed up BIG time.

it also doesn’t help that just a few months ago we had a great Sonic game that felt and played like one of the Classics. Sonic Forces certainly doesn’t look good in comparison! Really makes you wonder what Sonic’s future will be like after this...

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You are not jumping the gun in the slightest.

However...(and this might just be my Classic bias but...) Mania's sheer existence and hopeful continual speaks volumes of how on track Sonic is now despite the BS. Compared the Gens its not just "back to being good again" but "better than we ever were before", for a franchise that's 25+ years old that's HUGE! 

I don't think the Rush games (or advance) really were to that level back then. Sure they were "good games" but they weren't games you'd recommend to people who weren't big on handhelds, heck you could argue half their appeal was that they were handheld games. Mania is a different beast tho, like many others have said, its just pure joy that we haven't seen in this franchise in years!

With all that being said tho, maybe its time we retire this "dark age" mindset. A dark age implies that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, that things have a chance at getting better. This...of course makes Mania's existence all the more redundant. What exactly does anyone want from this franchise anymore? Mania to me (and others) is that. Heck we got fangames and Freedom Planet on top of that, I'm plenty satisfied as is. Its come to the point that the fanbase has eclipsed the company. Sure Forces might have a dark fan-ficy story, but I could just go watch whatever animation shadow759 is making if I wanted that kind of story telling. We've reached a point where Forces isn't offering anything new or of substance AND is showing no signs of unstaling, no signs of improving later, for all we know it could (and might as well at this point) get worse!

Sonic isn't going to die, but he will become irrelevant...oh what am I saying. We passed that crossroad a LONG time ago! Whatever Gens salvaged, Forces took a dump in. The sole fact that Mania (which can be confused as a fangame if one is not careful) outshines the supposed "official" new sonic release is irony at its finest! New Sonic just isn't relevant to anyone anymore and that's a fact...

So do we have a new dark age then? Again that implies that there is hope to be seen, whatever this fanbase wants out of 3D sonic has already looked elsewhere, Utopia and GHP Act 2 is further indication that innovation in this franchise won't happen under ST's current staff. If that's your shether of hope then so be it, dark age it is...

...but if you don't even have that then...well...I'm afraid we reached something much worse.

Looks at Mania

...I'm sorry what now?! :P

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16 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Yeah about that Mania thing.

When sonic 06 came out... did everybody go "well yes this was bad but look at the advance titles, look at secret rings (for some reason people liked that back in 2007.)

Nope the bad ruined the rep of the good.

True but did we have a game that was as good as Mania back when 06 came out?

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5 hours ago, Soniman said:

But then we got the Boom initiative, a colossal failure from start to finish resulting in the worst reviewed AND worst selling 3D Sonic game game, a bad 3DS version, a mediocre sequel, a cancelled comic series and a soon to be cancelled Cartoon. Not EVERYTHING about it was terrible but I can confidently say that it did more bad then good for the series

I knew it was a cancer for the series the moment I saw the first image. I really hope it's fully cancelled and we can forget it soon.

I was reading a Super Mario Odissey review, and a sentence struck me: "This franchise evolution is not just a matter of the character's charisma, but that it's been treated so well for decades".

Mario is big thanks to Nintendo. Sonic is not that big thanks to Sega.

Sega is lucky that Sonic is still such an icon, visually speaking. His games legacy is questionable, unfortunately.

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I think its jumping the gun. True, Forces is far from perfect or ideal, but its miles above what Sonic 06 and Rise of Lyric were doing back in the day. In part because at least with Forces, you can play through an entire level and be guaranteed not to encounter a game-breaking bug (whereas Sonic 06 could decide to screw you over at any point in time with a variety of glitches and RoL could suddenly have you clip through the floor or not load important stuff like the floor). Honestly, people have a tendency of declaring the dark age just because they strongly dislike this or that, to the point where the term has become meaningless. Even "dark age" Sonic had solid games, like Rush and Riders (and for the record, titles like Rush were acknowledged back then. At that time, people wanted Dimps to replace Sonic Team because they thought only the former knew what it was doing.).

I'd honestly prefer to call it a rough period, which carries no implication of things getting better or worse or every game being bad. Or even just a period of disappointing games. But I suppose that's getting into semantics too much.

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1. It is not another dark age, Boom does not really count like Shadow and 06 counted, and Lost World is really the only the only underperforming Sonic game but it still got some praise. 

2. If it was a dark age it would be the third: first began after Sonic & Knuckles and ended with Sonic Adventure, second  started after/with Sonic Heroes and ended with Sonic Unleashed

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4 hours ago, Alienrun said:

You are not jumping the gun in the slightest.

However...(and this might just be my Classic bias but...) Mania's sheer existence and hopeful continual speaks volumes of how on track Sonic is now despite the BS. Compared the Gens its not just "back to being good again" but "better than we ever were before", for a franchise that's 25+ years old that's HUGE! 

I don't think the Rush games (or advance) really were to that level back then. Sure they were "good games" but they weren't games you'd recommend to people who weren't big on handhelds, heck you could argue half their appeal was that they were handheld games. Mania is a different beast tho, like many others have said, its just pure joy that we haven't seen in this franchise in years!

With all that being said tho, maybe its time we retire this "dark age" mindset. A dark age implies that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, that things have a chance at getting better. This...of course makes Mania's existence all the more redundant. What exactly does anyone want from this franchise anymore? Mania to me (and others) is that. Heck we got fangames and Freedom Planet on top of that, I'm plenty satisfied as is. Its come to the point that the fanbase has eclipsed the company. Sure Forces might have a dark fan-ficy story, but I could just go watch whatever animation shadow759 is making if I wanted that kind of story telling. We've reached a point where Forces isn't offering anything new or of substance AND is showing no signs of unstaling, no signs of improving later, for all we know it could (and might as well at this point) get worse!

Sonic isn't going to die, but he will become irrelevant...oh what am I saying. We passed that crossroad a LONG time ago! Whatever Gens salvaged, Forces took a dump in. The sole fact that Mania (which can be confused as a fangame if one is not careful) outshines the supposed "official" new sonic release is irony at its finest! New Sonic just isn't relevant to anyone anymore and that's a fact...

So do we have a new dark age then? Again that implies that there is hope to be seen, whatever this fanbase wants out of 3D sonic has already looked elsewhere, Utopia and GHP Act 2 is further indication that innovation in this franchise won't happen under ST's current staff. If that's your shether of hope then so be it, dark age it is...

...but if you don't even have that then...well...I'm afraid we reached something much worse.

Looks at Mania

...I'm sorry what now?! :P

What is the term for the much worse thing we are now in?

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3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Oh god why.

Mania came out only few month ago. Forced didn't come out yet. Can we PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE start whining afterward.

Some people ask if it's hard to be Sonic fan. To me, it would be WAY easier if we could stop flogging yourself every five minutes.

I agree with this. Why does everyone think forces will be the next 06?

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From what I've seen the game plays normally and doesn't have the glitches that made Sonic 06 and Boom unbearable to want to play. People are gravely over exaggerating. Imo it looks like the game will be better than Lost World and at the very least slightly below or even near Colors and Generations for scores as it does carry their gameplay style and most importantly does feel like it.

 

The only thing I can see from the game play styles being a cause for worry is perhaps the avatar gameplay especially if the reviewers use a wispon that doesn't compliment in keeping up the momentum like cube. The burst and drill wispon (my favorite) look like the best ones to use.

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10 minutes ago, Flyinpenguin117 said:

This place is an echo chamber for Forces hate. Even I give it a lot of gaffe, but there are a lot of people outside this forum who are looking forward to it.

Remember: Any given dedicated gaming community is always the minority.

From where I'm standing that's actually more worrying than if the game was being universally panned.

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There is no dark age Sonic. Technically, that all happened in his beginning years when they were pushing him out the door because of his popularity.

Shadow wasn't a bad game. It functioned and improved on the design of Heroes.

Sonic 06 is a bad game but that is only putting it in context with the technicalities. I actually like Sonic Next Gen's story, most of the characters and the gameplay is actually interesting. Even the level design is a step up from the Adventure formula. 

What makes it bad is the loading, some of the broken physics/floatier physics(this part isn't that bad but it's a genuine flaw)and unavoidable glitches(which don't happen all the time but they are a little more often than not).

A dark age implies a slew of horrible/and or unreliable products. Sonic's struggle doesn't equal "bad". As much as folks love those Genesis era games to bits, Sonic 1 and 2 and CD were not even closed to being as balanced as 3k. It took time before they found the perfect inbetween. I repeat; The couldn't figure out how the level design could perfectly compliment him till 3k. 

To be honest, 3K is his only top game from that era. The game gear versions/Master system ones weren't too bad and I'll say those are even good. But Sega were still rushing him way too much..

Sonic's modern era is far better than the previous one. Even though the balance in quality never did hit 3k in terms of Level content(because that is what 3k is known for) it was still a pretty solid era. Only real mishandle was Next Gen but after that was the most high quality Sonic game(in only 2 years after it!) Sonic World Adventure. 

After that?

Still on a good role. The games did hit average levels but there were good ones like Generations and even Sonic 4-II and lost world became quite decent games.

Mania is definitely a step up when it comes to quality content and a good product. HOWEVER...The fans who made it only used what previously worked and still didn't improved on many of the aspects from Sonic 3K. Therefore making it feel like a fan game that is just a focused fan game and not having that official feel to it(or having the amount of content. Seriously, were they low on budget? Sonic Generations had more and that's even harder to make).

I will never agree that Sonic hit the dark ages. And it's actually surprising when comparing him to Mario or Zelda. They hit lower lows than Sonic honestly.

I mean..Now they are hitting higher lol but they have had more duds.

 

EDIT: Forces is not a dark age sonic game. It's a "Casual/Dumbed down" age. I'm sure Forces will be fun but it's clear they aren't making this game for us(the actual fans lol).

 

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