Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[StaticMania]

24 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Also, may I ask exactly why you say that about Cream and Cheese? I agree that they're absence is very odd, but the context makes me wonder.

Cream Cheese could take Tails' place as residential wimp of the narrative...given the setting and all.

[KittyNakajima]

When a game leak is enough to get you to dust off your SSMB handle and log the hell in after ????  years.

 

Shit. I know leaks aren't anything new when it comes to Sonic - hell, Sonic '06's story was pretty much leaked in script form months before the release - but this. This feels like deja vu?

 

Mumbled up story with loopholes. Flanderization or character assassination (I'm looking at you, Tails!), and flat out color palette swaps of previous final bosses? Edgy metal emo character to rival the hero?

 

Rinse. Lather. Repeat. SEGA, I'm trying so hard to be in your corner, but with things like this to celebrate what should otherwise be a noteworthy milestone in your mascot's/key IPs career?

 

 

 

 

[DabigRG]

30 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Cream Cheese could take Tails' place as residential wimp of the narrative...given the setting and all.

Sigh...I figured that's what you meant. You shouldn't need a character to be " the wimp" so another can look good, especially in this situation/game. 

I'll say this though: Cream and Cheese being around would've made that scene (and at least one other) inherently more interesting/dynamic.

[Indigo Rush]

7 minutes ago, KittyNakajima said:

When a game leak is enough to get you to dust off your SSMB handle and log the hell in after ????  years.

Wooooah @KittyNakajima how's it been?! It feels like it's been what... a decade? Haha, good to see you!

 

Anyway yeah Forces a poo

[dbzfan7]

7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Sigh...I figured that's what you meant. You shouldn't need a character to be " the wimp" so another can look good, especially in this situation/game. 

I'll say this though: Cream and Cheese being around would've made that scene (and at least one other) inherently more interesting/dynamic.

Isn't Cheese like an established badass? I mean Cream points and Cheese destroys everything.

[KittyNakajima]

3 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Wooooah @KittyNakajima how's it been?! It feels like it's been what... a decade? Haha, good to see you!

 

Anyway yeah Forces a poo

I kinda went back to school and achieved a degree! Now just job hunting and idle time on my hands means I can lurk the boards proper again. :3

 

But back on topic, the story in Forces makes my future children cry. I know we shouldn't expect award winning writing from these games, but this fell short. A scenario where Eggman finally gets his shit together and bests Sonic? Who wouldn't have been for that? But a 20 second text scroll glossing over it? What the HELL. It's the dude's 25th anniversary as well! They could have turned the HAM dial up to 11 and shown a montage of all the crazy shit he's been wanting to do - like build a bigger, better, theme park for himsel- Wait. Colors covered that. Damn.

It could have worked, but this just seems like the usual scrambled rush we've come to see in the final build of the more recent Sonic games.

 

[DabigRG]

4 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Isn't Cheese like an established badass? I mean Cream points and Cheese destroys everything.

Not specifically what I meant, but yes. That is indeed a factor.

[PSI Wind]

12 hours ago, Mayor D said:

Without sounding too much like a conspiracy.

Put aside the score for just a moment and just look at this logistically.

 

No review codes for the West until after launch.

Any review codes which do go out would be under an embargo. Typically Sega lifts embargo the day before or the day.

For publication today. Famitsu would have had to have had the review ready to go at least 2 days ago.

Time to play the game and write review/edit etc... at least 2-5 days before that.

So we're looking at a code being given to them at least 2 weeks before release date..

 And no other site or publication in Japan has published a review.

 

Is this not just a tiny bit suspicious?

Famitsu is the country's biggest and most well known gaming magazine, so no, not really. Famitsu reviews are pretty bad too, as Tracker pointed out. Let me add another: Mighty No.9 got a 32 also

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Cream Cheese could take Tails' place as residential wimp of the narrative...given the setting and all.

Does there need to be a wimp?

Can't Cream and Cheese be strong characters too?

There's nothing wrong with a character having moments of weakness, granted, but they should make sense and not totally define the character. In Forces it was hamfisted and poorly done, as is the norm with Sonic Team's writing.

[DabigRG]

4 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

Does there need to be a wimp?

Can't Cream and Cheese be strong characters too?

There's nothing wrong with a character having moments of weakness, granted, but they should make sense and not totally define the character. In Forces it was hamfisted and poorly done, as is the norm with Sonic Team's writing.

This.

There's a difference between the Worf Effect(which can be controversial itself) and just lazily making a character look good in comparison(couldn't think of a proper term/trope besides strawmanning).

[Sean]

Tails' behavior in Forces makes no canonical sense because in SA2 he witnesses Sonic's "death" firsthand, which only strengthens his resolve despite that and his slip of the tongue moments earlier. It reminds me how Samus' breakdown in Metroid: Other M makes no sense since she has no history of ever reacting in such a way to Ridley before.

7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

This.

No one-word posts please

[RedFox99]

19 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

There's a difference between the Worf Effect(which can be controversial itself) and just lazily making a character look good in comparison(couldn't think of a proper term/trope besides strawmanning).

I think those two are the same thing. Worf has the Flu is seemingly the Worf Effect done right.

[DabigRG]

I thought the Worf effect was explicitly about having a strong character lose a fight to establish a threat?

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I thought the Worf effect was explicitly about having a strong character lose a fight to establish a threat?

Basically, yeah.

Eggman used to get worfed by new villains all the time as a quick, cheap way of showing the audience how tough they were. Sonic Team  has dialed that back significantly lately, though.

[dbzfan7]

1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

I thought the Worf effect was explicitly about having a strong character lose a fight to establish a threat?

No that is right. Because Worf got his ass kicked a lot to make a threat look good, despite him being the tough guy of the brigade. Tails ain't worfing as he can't make anyone look like a threat in his current modern portrayal. He's a glorified damsel. He's just extremely nerfed is all. Kinda like how Knuckles was nerfed hard in Sonic X and jobbed horribly to Shadow (Which Archie fixed in their bout in the comics)

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, dbzfan7 said:

Tails ain't worfing as he can't make anyone look like a threat in his current modern portrayal. He's a glorified damsel. He's just extremely nerfed is all.

Kinda like how Knuckles was nerfed hard in Sonic X and jobbed horribly to Shadow (Which Archie fixed in their bout in the comics)

Ah.

That's odd. Cause I remember Knuckles actually being treated as a legitimate combatant throughout X, with Shadow being the exception rather than the rule due to it being more about Tails. 

 

[StaticMania]

34 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

Does there need to be a wimp?

Can't Cream and Cheese be strong characters too?

There's nothing wrong with a character having moments of weakness, granted, but they should make sense and not totally define the character. In Forces it was hamfisted and poorly done, as is the norm with Sonic Team's writing.

There doesn't need to be a "wimp" exactly, but if there is one, it should be Cream Cheese...it's only fitting isn't it? I mean, no Sonic the Hedgehog character is really that much of a scaredy-cat, so this would only be relative to everyone else.

[dbzfan7]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Ah.

That's odd. Cause I remember Knuckles actually being treated as a legitimate combatant throughout X, with Shadow being the exception rather than the rule due to it being more about Tails. 

 

The Sonic comes to save the day at the last minute cliche kinda took him down. Though I like to mostly forget the show even exists XD

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

There doesn't need to be a "wimp" exactly, but if there is one, it should be Cream Cheese...it's only fitting isn't it? I mean, no Sonic the Hedgehog character is really that much of a scaredy-cat, so this would only be relative to everyone else.

Cream went on several full adventures though.

Cream managed to carry the full weight of BIG THE CAT. Hell, Cheese tore robots to shreds like it was nothing.

I don't think Cream and Cheese are remotely what I'd call wimps.

[StaticMania]

1 minute ago, Super Mechanio said:

Cream went on several full adventures though.

Cream managed to carry the full weight of BIG THE CAT. Hell, Cheese tore robots to shreds like it was nothing.

I don't think Cream and Cheese are remotely what I'd call wimps.

That's "wimp" in quotes, mang. Also several adventures facing Eggman, as noted before, Eggman is basically a non-entity in Forces. The real threats are those illusions that get taken out in one shot at the end.

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

That's "wimp" in quotes, mang. Also several adventures facing Eggman, as noted before, Eggman is basically a non-entity in Forces. The real threats are those illusions that get taken out in one shot at the end.

I mean, everyone was a non-entity in Forces, but Eggman was still behind all those illusions.

And he fought Sonic in an ostensibly real robot in the end too, so eh. Not exactly a non-entity.

Not that Eggman was great in this game, far from it. He's only marginally less terrible than Infinite here, which as an Eggman fan disappoints me greatly.

[DabigRG]

10 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

There doesn't need to be a "wimp" exactly, but if there is one, it should be Cream Cheese...it's only fitting isn't it? I mean, no Sonic the Hedgehog character is really that much of a scaredy-cat, so this would only be relative to everyone else.

 

6 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

That's "wimp" in quotes, mang. Also several adventures facing Eggman, as noted before, Eggman is basically a non-entity in Forces. The real threats are those illusions that get taken out in one shot at the end.

Mm...true enough, I suppose.

10 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

The Sonic comes to save the day at the last minute cliche kinda took him down. Though I like to mostly forget the show even exists XD

Did it? Honestly, Knuckles was generally considered separate entity enough that I honestly don't remember too many fights where he can lose. But I'll take your word for it.

 

 

 

[In All The World]

Oi. Wanna share something here...

Anyone feel like Forces just screams "cut content" out loud? I remember Iizuka said something about feeling that Forces wasn't ready to be released some time ago, so I guess even that man has standards.

And I kinda see where he might have been coming from. Think about it... there are a few levels in the game that really don't deserve to be in Forces, and the game does have some pretty cool concepts. The frame of the story was pretty great from what I've gathered, and the Avatar seemed in general like a good idea. The random fluctuations in level design ranging from great to terrible seems odd, and the amount of plotholes the story has is numerous, even for Sonic Team.

Those Big 4 we were always teased about seem more like afterthoughts than anything, and the way Shadow clone and Chaos were killed off seems suspicious. Only Zavok had a fleshed out boss, which was much better compared to Metal Sonic's, really. Hell, they're even releasing a patch on the first day that includes bug fixes, MORE levels, Super Sonic... all that shit. 

All of that just screams that cut content aloud... Really strange.

Maybe if they hadn't hired 3 mediocre game designers to work on what we all expected to be an amazing anniversary game, and maybe if they just had that extra time, then this entire situation would be wholly different. Not sure why they didn't do that like they did with Fire and Ice, but I would have preferred to play a game that was delayed for half a year more than the way Forces is in right now. Maybe that 4 years would actually be worth it.

Now I'm not gonna say something like ST doesn't learn from their mistakes, because they do... but just very stubbornly. Hopefully they learn from this one, too, because I still believe in them. 

[Dr. Egguman]

I'm such a fan of Eggman, I always thought that he have a real potential to be "the" villain, Sonic Adventure's, Unleashed and even Forces proof it. Sadly, Sonic Team just lost his personality by the time, they do that even with Tails. Tails saying "sorry I'm not smart enough to fix you", wtf? Is this the same Tails who once said "I've build a TV out of paperclips and reprogrammed a super computer using dishwashing detergent and a toothpick."? Damn, this was in 2013, how the fuck they just made Tails say he is not smart enough to fix a robot? They really need to go back and see how Tails and Eggman is. Sonic Adventure's do this well and they should study it.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Egguman said:

Tails saying "sorry I'm not smart enough to fix you", wtf? Is this the same Tails who once said "I've build a TV out of paperclips and reprogrammed a super computer using dishwashing detergent and a toothpick."?

Maybe they heard everyone moaning about how he came off like an omnipotent science wizard in Lost World and they decided to tone him down a bit.

Or maybe Infinite's in Omega's brain and he needs a kiss from his true love Shadow to wake up.

e: and yeah I wouldn't doubt one bit that the game got hacked up a lot from what they originally planned. But it is what it is.