Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[dbzfan7]

9 minutes ago, Sean said:

As much as people don't like Tails in Lost World (I don't, either), he was at least incredibly resourceful, even on his own. Maybe to a hilarious, unrealistic degree, but it's definitely a far cry from how he acts in Forces.

But not resourceful enough to go "Hm...I've got a Mega Man buster on my arm...I could keep flying around and shooting....nah." XP

 

7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

To be fair, in all of those instances, Tails played a major role in helping solve the problem, more so than Amy and Knuckles in fact.

• In Unleashed, he was introduced being surrounded by Gaia Creatures and flew off to take cover before(?) the Werehog showed up. Once it was cleared out, however, he revealed that he had already being in contact with Professor Pickle and spent the rest of the game helping Sonic travel to each continent while fighting off the Egg Cauldron.
• In Colors, he traveled with Sonic to investigate the Interstellar Amusement Park and spent most of the game creating a program to help him understand Yacker and the Wisps so they can stop Eggman's plan. And the one time he actually could help out in a boss fight, Sonic shoves him into the space elevator to make sure he gets to safety in case he doesn't make it in time.
•  In Generations, he...well, mainly gets swiped up by the Time Eater  along with the others, but he and his classic counterpart at least help figure out the Time Eater's abilities and allows the others to somehow speak with the Super Sonics during the Final Boss(for better or worse :lol:).
• And in Lost World, he helps Sonic chase after Eggman to the Lost Hex and while there is a bit of conflict due to his insecure misgivings about having to rely on Eggman, ultimately shuts down the overloading Extractor and even figures out how to reverse the process. He also ruins Zik's plan to roboticize Sonic at the cost of being captured himself but is able to take advantage of the situation to pull the wool over Zavok, Zeena, and Zor's eyes.

In Forces, however, he's twice(or thrice, if you count Omega for whatever reason) shown to be inefficient during key scenes where he could've done something and then he just kinda piggybacks off of Classic and Buddy for the rest of the game. He's also not passed over for the leadership role in lieu of Knuckles and his likely hand in possibly creating the Wispons goes completely unmentioned.

So I think the problem is more that with the rest of the cast having an active hand for once means that his shortcomings this time around are all the more noticeable given his lack of personal focus.

Pretty sure Sonic coulda done the flying himself to be honest. Maybe not the dog fight, but even then I ain't so sure.

Sonic knew what to do before Tails even told him. He had destroyed like 2 generators before basically being told to just do what he was already doing. Not to mention unintentionally basically solving the problem for the most part after boss 1.

Yeah I think we can all agree no one really did anything here. The story was barely existent and was more just a bunch of exposition and that's it.

Indeed though I'd argue even if captured the Zeti suck and Sonic never really struggled against them. Only fleeing because his friend could get hurt. He did though fix the machine which to be honest could also have been done after Sonic did everything else. Ala sit in the plane and come in once everything is cleared out. So one point, that coulda been done by sitting out most of the game.

Pretty much. That and Classic Tails/Comic Tails being so much better.....and somehow even Boom Tails.

[DabigRG]

32 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

In Lost World Tails got knocked out by a buzz-bomber blast, it makes sense that Tails in Forces would be afraid of Chaos 0 and some soulless Egg Pawns.

Actually, the Buzzbomber simply blew up the rock he was taking cover behind and Sonic swooped in to carry him off since he was prone to be shot in the back.

Honestly, I can understand why Chaos creeping up behind him after he failed to Omega going again would make him react the way he did. The problem there is that he literally shouts for Sonic there and the pacing gives him a little too much time to process Chaos's presence.

16 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I wasn't using that as a defense, it's just that people only seem to reference Lost World in regards to Tails' attitude...and it makes me sad. There's a whole package there.

Part of that is likely because not only Lost World the most recent game before this one, but his portrayal here almost feels like an overcorrection from his characterization there.

18 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Pretty sure Sonic coulda done the flying himself to be honest. Maybe not the dog fight, but even then I ain't so sure.

Sonic knew what to do before Tails even told him. He had destroyed like 2 generators before basically being told to just do what he was already doing. Not to mention unintentionally basically solving the problem for the most part after boss 1.

Yeah I think we can all agree no one really did anything here. The story was barely existent and was more just a bunch of exposition and that's it.

Indeed though I'd argue even if captured the Zeti suck and Sonic never really struggled against them. Only fleeing because his friend could get hurt. He did though fix the machine which to be honest could also have been done after Sonic did everything else. Ala sit in the plane and come in once everything is cleared out. So one point, that coulda been done by sitting out most of the game.

Pretty much. That and Classic Tails/Comic Tails being so much better.....and somehow even Boom Tails.

What exactly is your intent here?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

2 hours ago, Polkadi said:

Tails attempts to rebuild Omega, presumably failing, and says that he's sorry he's not smart enough.

You know what's sad? I actually think this could have made for a good scene if done differently.

Like say Omega was running on fumes while rampaging against Eggman's robots, and Tails happened to pass by and tries to repair him...

only for Omega to refuse his assistance out of a stubborn belief that he is too good to be touched by a meatbag (other than Rouge and Shadow), and a belief that he can only be the supreme Eggman robot if he doesn't receive help in his conquest. That and just sheer stubborn pride. This ends up going to the point that Omega threatens to shoot Tails if he dares aid him before lumbering off, amidst Tails' protests. Then maybe later on Omega finally breaks down due to accumulated damage and Tails decides to help anyways despite Omega's earlier threat, and then maybe have Omega learn that Tails was suffering PTSD at the time and yet still offered to help, and Omega learns to respect Tails for it, adding him to the small list of people Omega feels some respect for.

Then you'd have a reason for Omega not being repaired properly, while Tails doesn't end up looking like a wimp.

[DabigRG]

13 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

You know what's sad? I actually think this could have made for a good scene if done differently.

 

Then you'd have a reason for Omega not being repaired properly, while Tails doesn't end up looking like a wimp.

Most of the issues people have with Tails here fall into that category. On paper, it makes sense both withing the story concept and for the character, but in actual execution, its done so forced and frequently that it rubs people the wrong way.

 

16 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Like say Omega was running on fumes while rampaging against Eggman's robots, and Tails happened to pass by and tries to repair him...

only for Omega to refuse his assistance out of a stubborn belief that he is too good to be touched by a meatbag (other than Rouge and Shadow), and a belief that he can only be the supreme Eggman robot if he doesn't receive help in his conquest. That and just sheer stubborn pride. This ends up going to the point that Omega threatens to shoot Tails if he dares aid him before lumbering off, amidst Tails' protests. Then maybe later on Omega finally breaks down due to accumulated damage and Tails decides to help anyways despite Omega's earlier threat, and then maybe have Omega learn that Tails was suffering PTSD at the time and yet still offered to help, and Omega learns to respect Tails for it, adding him to the small list of people Omega feels some respect for.

Then you'd have a reason for Omega not being repaired properly, while Tails doesn't end up looking like a wimp.

Hmm...not really what I would've thought of, mainly due to being a bit extensive, but it does indeed solve the problem and make the story feel more organic(ironically).

[Diogenes]

I actually like the Omega bit enough as it is. Tails is quite obviously thrown off his game by Sonic's "death" and this is one of the ways it manifests. On its own it doesn't make him weak or a wimp or whatever, just that he has normal human weaknesses and he isn't always an omnipotent science wizard.

[dbzfan7]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

What exactly is your intent here?

Giving my two cents on what was there. On why I don't quite agree. Though we each have different standards so different opinions and well I think ya got it. 

[DabigRG]

The point is that Tails still visibly helped out in the past. In fact, he shows up the most of any of SOnic's friends precisely in part because of that.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I actually like the Omega bit enough as it is. Tails is quite obviously thrown off his game by Sonic's "death" and this is one of the ways it manifests. On its own it doesn't make him weak or a wimp or whatever, just that he has normal human weaknesses and he isn't always an omnipotent science wizard.

I agree. That in and of itself was perfectly fine, matched with the subplot they were apparently going for initially, and it made sense for Tails's character.

[dbzfan7]

15 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

The point is that Tails still visibly helped out in the past. In fact, he shows up the most of any of SOnic's friends precisely in part because of that.

Eh in a way I suppose. Even if I'd say most of it was the illusion of helping, rather than actually doing so. I wouldn't consider that showing up either since nothing he did at all is worth writing home about. 

[Dr. Mechano]

46 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I actually like the Omega bit enough as it is. Tails is quite obviously thrown off his game by Sonic's "death" and this is one of the ways it manifests. On its own it doesn't make him weak or a wimp or whatever, just that he has normal human weaknesses and he isn't always an omnipotent science wizard.

Well, sure. Tails being unable to fix some things is fine, and even if it's because he's thrown off due to Sonic's disappearance, it's fine.

I think peoples' problem with the scene is that it exists in a broader context in which Tails is portrayed as nigh incapable of functioning in Sonic's absence. It feels like it's meant to demonstrate how much he's "lost it" rather than him simply being thrown off his game or grieving.

[TailsTellsTales]

1 hour ago, Super Mechanio said:

Well, sure. Tails being unable to fix some things is fine, and even if it's because he's thrown off due to Sonic's disappearance, it's fine.

I think peoples' problem with the scene is that it exists in a broader context in which Tails is portrayed as nigh incapable of functioning in Sonic's absence. It feels like it's meant to demonstrate how much he's "lost it" rather than him simply being thrown off his game or grieving.

I still say it's very out of character for him. I mean sure you can have your down moments but he had seen much worse. Imagine if Tails did that in Sonic Adventure 2 when he thought Dr. Eggman killed Sonic? The game would just be him crying and losing it and freaking out when your everyday badnik goes near him. Sounds very out of character doesn't it? No the Tails we know would fight back and use his skills to come up with ways to fix what is wrong. Sure he will have some bad moments but the main thing is that he fights back! He is independent and very capable but over the years he has become a more helpless character with Sonic Forces being the final straw. He used to be part of the action but now he is I hate to say this a cheerleader. I definitely do not want my most favorite character that I grew up with being betrayed as helpless. I want the Tails who could kick butt back again. Sorry for the long post.

[hifihedgehog]

Sonic Forces has a bit of a plot hole where it does not fully or properly explain the demise of Infinite. Over the story, we are told that the Phantom Rubies can only be harnessed by individuals who possess the strength of will to control them and that any particular sample can only work with the DNA of the one who originally activated it. However, when Infinite is ultimately defeated in his last boss, he just disappears into obscurity as if he were just an illusion and not a living being. Then again, we also know that he stated that he personally possessed a Phantom Ruby and that he had the strength of will to control his Phantom Ruby. This is where the problem arises. He would have had to have been a living organism with DNA to activate and harness his Phantom Ruby. What happened then to the living being who was actually controlling Infinite's projection, the real Infinite, via the Phantom Ruby? (Please don't tell me that this story is intended for a Sonic Forces 2. I can't stand another Pontac and Graff treatment of an Adventure knock-off.)

Another question that is not properly or fully explained is if and, if so, how the Phantom Ruby can not only change a living being's but also a robot's interpretation of reality. The Phantom Ruby's projections are said to not be reality but they can be real enough to those under its influence to cause pain and damage. But if this is the case, why does a robot like Omega who is not a living organism end up interpreting the Phantom Ruby's simulation as reality when he battles Infinite in the comics and, as we later learn through the game, get defeated?

[DiamondX]

Guys, was the Avatar vs Infinite boss thene uploaded anywhere on youtube?

[DiamondX]

Us it just me or does 0:11-0:13 never appear in the game?

 

[hifihedgehog]

In other words, the Phantom Ruby sounds like a poor riff off of the episode "Catspaw" from Star Trek: The Original Series, where two alien beings are able to transform the human thought and emotion of the Starfleet crew they prey upon (sensations which these alien lifeforms distinctly lack) into potent and deadly physical manifestations by way of a device known as the transmuter. In the end when the device is destroyed and what was believed to have been real instantly fades away, it is left up to the viewer to decide whether or not everything that occurred via this transmuter was merely simulated to the mind of those affected, though the fact remains that a man died during the course of this forced confinement and the U.S.S. Enterprise did sustain a temporary raise in hull and cabin temperature due to this transmuter.
 

 

[hifihedgehog]

13 hours ago, Sean said:

As much as people don't like Tails in Lost World (I don't, either), he was at least incredibly resourceful, even on his own. Maybe to a hilarious, unrealistic degree, but it's definitely a far cry from how he acts in Forces.

Little follows what was established in previous canon, and the story leaves many loose ends unexplained. It is utterly ridiculous and mindboggling how the same Tails--our titular sidekick who is as well-regarded among us as much as if not more than Luigi is among the Mario fan base--who built a TV out of paper clips and who programmed a super computer using dishwashing detergent and a toothpick, who fought Eggman twice in the most perilous of circumstances (once when a largely populated metropolis was about to be exploded by an Eggman-turned-to-terrorist; second when Sonic, his lifelong best friend and essentially adopted brother, was supposedly blown to bits in space right before his eyes) is now somehow a blundering idiot (cannot fix Omega) and a cowardly wimp (loses his mind after Sonic's loss). There is also the fact that Classic Sonic is no longer Sonic from the past but instead he is Sonic from an alternate dimension. Aside from the fact that their jokes again insult your intelligence, it is as if Graff and Pontac do not pay any attention to the cohesion within their own writing, let alone respect the continuity of the franchise's canon as a whole. I say this all the time in social media and on TSSZNews, but I will say it here again: SEGA, please relieve us and yourselves of these writers and get someone else more competent to do your writing instead of these fan fiction pretenders. 

[Mark1]

3 minutes ago, hifihedgehog said:

Classic Sonic is no longer Sonic from the past but instead he is Sonic from an alternate dimension

Has this actually been confirmed? The game's story (as far as I know) didn't actually fully mention this.

Personally a better fan of Classic Sonic being from a different dimension - even though Sega have now proven they can't do consistency for shit.

[hifihedgehog]

27 minutes ago, Mark1 said:

Has this actually been confirmed? The game's story (as far as I know) didn't actually fully mention this.

It is quite clear that Classic Sonic, Classic Tails, and Classic Eggman is from their future selves' past (which includes Sonic's past) which is stated multiple times throughout the Sonic Generations script. Recall also that there Eggman refers to visiting Sonic's past to undo his past defeats, not those defeats from Classic Sonic's alternate dimension which would not apply to him in his universe anyway. Clearly, Graff and Pontac fudged and finagled the canon in this respect to fit their narrative, and that is lazy writing if you ask me.

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_Generations/Script_(Console/PC)

 

Examples:

#1:

"Modern Tails: 'Places and enemies from our past...'

"Both Tails: 'We're travelling through time and space!'"

 

#2:

"Classic Eggman: 'Nobody calls me that anymore. If you would be so kind as to explain, gentleman genius Dr. Eggman From The Future.'

"Modern Eggman: 'It will be my pleasure, most excellent and efficacious Dr. Eggman from the Past."

 

#3:

"Classic Eggman: 'Oh, you are too kind, my dear future self! And I was happy to help."'

 

#4:

"Modern Sonic: 'It was great teaming up with you. Hope you learned a few tricks that will help you out in the future. I mean the past. You know what I mean.'"

 

#5:

"Modern Eggman: 'Don't get too self-righteous. It'll be your plan pretty soon.'"

 

[DoubleXXCross]

13 hours ago, Razule said:

He already said his piece on it.

Really odd he didn't know about it. 'Course, Forces shows Generations is canon, too, so he was incorrect about that.

Kevin's gonna be re-ticked then.

Oi, @AAUK. Honey.

[Gabz Girl]

3 hours ago, hifihedgehog said:

Sonic Forces has a bit of a plot hole where it does not fully or properly explain the demise of Infinite. Over the story, we are told that the Phantom Rubies can only be harnessed by individuals who possess the strength of will to control them and that any particular sample can only work with the DNA of the one who originally activated it. However, when Infinite is ultimately defeated in his last boss, he just disappears into obscurity as if he were just an illusion and not a living being. Then again, we also know that he stated that he personally possessed a Phantom Ruby and that he had the strength of will to control his Phantom Ruby. This is where the problem arises. He would have had to have been a living organism with DNA to activate and harness his Phantom Ruby. What happened then to the living being who was actually controlling Infinite's projection, the real Infinite, via the Phantom Ruby? (Please don't tell me that this story is intended for a Sonic Forces 2. I can't stand another Pontac and Graff treatment of an Adventure knock-off)

According to Iizuka, Infinite was an anthro like Avatar before he was presumably abducted by Eggman and turned into Infinite. God knows why none of this was explained or shown in the actual game because this makes Infinite even more of an enigma than he was before! All those trailers hyping Infinite as this awesome, mysterious character and Sonic Forces doesn’t explain shit. 

We’re still waiting on the Shadow DLC and digital comic to finally give us some answers, especially the latter which seems to be about Infinite’s origins and isn’t coming out until release day next Tuesday.

Kinda shitty though that you need to read a comic to find out what Infinite is all about and not put it in the game. It’s a practice that’s been going on for quite a while in gaming now and I can’t stand it. 

[mayday2592]

Didn't Eggman

17 minutes ago, hifihedgehog said:

It is quite clear that Classic Sonic, Classic Tails, and Classic Eggman is from "[their] past" (which includes Sonic's past) which is stated multiple times throughout the Sonic Generations script. Recall also that there Eggman refers to visiting Sonic's past to undo his past defeats, not those defeats from Classic Sonic's alternate dimension which would not apply to him in his universe anyway. Clearly, Graff and Pontac fudged and finagled the canon in this respect to fit their narrative, and that is lazy writing if you ask me.

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_Generations/Script_(Console/PC)

Didn't Eggman mention Classic Sonic coming from another dimension during the Egg Dragoon fight in Green hill though?

[hifihedgehog]

18 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

According to Iizuka, Infinite was an anthro like Avatar before he was presumably abducted by Eggman and turned into Infinite. God knows why none of this was explained or shown in the actual game because this makes Infinite an enigma like the Deadly Six (who are they? where did they come from? are they the Lost Hex’s inhabitants or aliens?).

The problem with the way they leave it is that many people who see the final boss are led to believe that was just an illusion of Infinite and many, who have not read anything from the comics or the Q&A's, are mistaking him to be a mere illusion or intangible manifestation of the Phantom Ruby. So what happened to the real or tangible Infinite, the proverbial "man behind the curtain?" It is clear the Shadow DLC is supposed to explain his origins, including the anthropomorphic backstory part that Iizuka had stated, but I am at a loss as to what happens to the real character. Enough of Shadow's origins and demise in Sonic Adventure 2 was well-explained, where he made his twinkling descent into the Earth's atmosphere as his supposed heroic sacrifice for all humanity. A vanishing projection upon defeat is a weak exit for an otherwise central character that has carried substantial weight throughout the rest of the course of the story. Did he run away to some unknown quarter of the planet? Does Dr. Eggman still have him in his custody? Did he become so attached to the Phantom Ruby that his virtual existence literally became his only existence so that when he was defeated, he ceased to exist? Iizuka wants us to be asking ourselves questions, but such questions as these are the wrong questions for us to be asking ourselves at the close of a story.

15 minutes ago, mayday2592 said:

Didn't Eggman

Didn't Eggman mention Classic Sonic coming from another dimension during the Egg Dragoon fight in Green hill though?

Yes, and this flies in the face with what was said in the Generations script. Read it there. There is no mention of dimension--only past and future and it is stated multiple times to be shared by past and modern forms collectively. The script snippets that I specially selected illustrate that the Classic characters are the past forms of the current Modern cast.

[Razule]

37 minutes ago, hifihedgehog said:

Clearly, Graff and Pontac fudged and finagled the canon in this respect to fit their narrative, and that is lazy writing if you ask me.

Pretty sure Pontaff were just localizing the script and had no control over the story this time? This retcon is from Sonic Team, not Pontaff.

[Gabz Girl]

20 minutes ago, hifihedgehog said:

The problem with the way they leave it is that many people who see the final boss are led to believe that was just an illusion of Infinite. So what happened to the real or tangible Infinite, the proverbial "man behind the curtain?" It is clear the Shadow DLC is supposed to explain his origins, but I am at a loss as to what happens to the real character. Enough of Shadow's origins (that he was the result of Gerald Robotnik's experiments and the Ultimate Life Form, not the Biolizard prototype) in Sonic Adventure 2 was well explained before he made his twinkling descent into the Earth's atmosphere with his supposed death. A vanishing projection upon defeat is a weak exit for an otherwise central character that has carried substantial weight throughout the rest of the course of the story.

I think he went back to the Phantom Ruby inside of Eggman’s Death Egg Robot (awful name btw) because of his comment “No, I can still fight” and his body phasing away to the tower up ahead which is where the robot and Ruby where. As for whether he’s an illusion or not I...really don’t know. 

I don’t get it. We don’t even know what happened to his body, his original body I mean. And did he just accept Eggman’s abduction or offer like sure, turn me into an all mighty illusion being merged with a powerful Ruby? Is he immortal as Infinite? What’s up with the mask too??

I just remembered that Eggman must have been doing experiments with the Phantom Ruby for a while now, because if you look in that opening cutscene you can see some other subjects besides Infinite in test tubes. Damn, I really wanna know what happened here.

[That one Fan]

Man...this story was just...they had Eggman take over the world and they did literally nothing with it! Where's the boasting, where's the Eggman Empire symbol?! Shadow's 'evil self' being a illusion..that had so much potential for levels where he's on the run, mistaken for the fake Shadows. Chaos, why?! Zavok...why him?! 

 

If you take Classic Sonic out of the game, nothing would be different when you consider we already have 2D in this game. He didn't add a damn thing.

 

And dont get me started on the final boss; you have Eggman declare himself the ultimate and complete being and he just controls a robot? I would have loved to have seen him use the Ruby to Roboticize himself as a final boss. 

 

Infinite was overhyped as hell.

 

Only good thing was Orbot and Cubot having little to no dialogue.

[hifihedgehog]

Just now, Razule said:

Pretty sure Pontaff were just localizing the script and had no control over the story this time? This retcon is from Sonic Team, not Pontaff.

Graff and Pontac are both credited in the game's closing credits.