Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[That one Fan]

Just now, hifihedgehog said:

Graff and Pontac are both credited in the game's closing credits.

At least we didn't have childish humour where they literally explain the joke that was just told.

[Gabz Girl]

1 minute ago, hifihedgehog said:

Graff and Pontac are both credited in the game's closing credits.

I don’t think they have any control over the story, just the dialogue. That’s why it’s time and space in Sonic Generations (there’s a Time Eater ffs) and suddenly it’s another dimension in Sonic Forces. 

[hifihedgehog]

Just now, That one Fan said:

At least we didn't have childish humour where they literally explain the joke that was just told.

No, but Sonic, who just endured months of torture, jokes literally two or three times in a row when he faces Infinite again for the first time since his escape.

[That one Fan]

Just now, hifihedgehog said:

No, but Sonic, who just endured months of torture, jokes literally two or three times in a row when he faces Infinite again for the first time since his escape.

Yeah, that annoyed me too. If they're not willing to explore the consequences of said torture, then they shouldn't have done it.

[hifihedgehog]

3 minutes ago, That one Fan said:

Yeah, that annoyed me too. If they're not willing to explore the consequences of said torture, then they shouldn't have done it.

To be fair, my favorite scene is the one where Tails and Classic Sonic secretly watch Eggman and Infinite recover and destroy a Phantom Ruby prototype. If every other scene would have had the same depth of feeling and quality of dialogue as this one, the game would be in much better shape than it is now.

[That one Fan]

Just now, hifihedgehog said:

To be fair, my favorite scene is the one where Tails and Classic Sonic secretly watch Eggman and Infinite recover and destroy a Phantom Ruby prototype. If every other scene could have had the same feeling and quality of dialogue as this one, the game would be in much better shape than it is.

Oh yeah, this game needed more scenes like that. I was seriously dreading Cubot and Orbot to appear and ruin the tension but they didn't. I was so happy to see a serious conversation between the villains at last. And well..I'm actually glad Eggman didn't have a lotta comedy here. Harkened back in Adventure 2. But the execution was..meh.

The 'sun will fall upon you all' plan was stupid. If Infinite is unstoppable, why didn't he just do it right away?

[hifihedgehog]

4 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

I don’t think they have any control over the story, just the dialogue. That’s why it’s time and space in Sonic Generations (there’s a Time Eater ffs) and suddenly it’s another dimension in Sonic Forces. 

And there lies the problem. Regardless of whoever it is that is managing story, they need a better methodology--be it a database, a third-party arbitrator, a combination of these, or what not--to properly review and sign off the elements of the story.

[Razule]

16 minutes ago, hifihedgehog said:

Graff and Pontac are both credited in the game's closing credits.

Yes.. as the English writers. Because they wrote the English script. Which is adapted from the Japanese script, written in Japan, by Eitaro Totoda.

Sega really cares about "brand consistency" and stuff, they wouldn't let Pontac and Graff change it anyway. Which is a moot point, because they had little influence over the script, unlike Lost World. I'm not saying Pontaff and Graff are great writers, I'm just saying they're not to blame for the story's shortcomings cause they didn't make it.

Also there's someone above them that just says Writers, Story, and Script, Makoto Gota, what does that mean? Translator, maybe?

[CleverSonicUsername]

The past/dimensional thing def seems like an intentional retcon, expressly so they can more conveniently treat future projects like Mania as being distinct from the Modern games in more than just gameplay.

Edit: Also, even though I don't think it has been clearly defined, I'm willing to bet the Adventure era is being treated as a different dimension too. Helps them draw a line after 06 and Unleashed both in terms of tone and mechanics and would actually resolve some consistency issues in regards to story and characterization (though not all.)

[hifihedgehog]

10 minutes ago, Razule said:

Eitaro Totoda

Thank you for the clarification since the credits are not clear enough when properly citing each role. In other words, Graff and Pontac are actually a localization and adaptation team, not true script writers, likely taking rough translations and then according to strict rules of scene timing, outlined plot points, and more, drafting and authoring from that the English version of the script. In that case, I fondly look forward to the eventual fan translation of the Japanese script so we can figure out just how much of anything truly worthwhile was lost in translation and adaptation and how much of this was Totoda and his associates' folly.

[Razule]

16 minutes ago, hifihedgehog said:

Thank you for the clarification since the credits are not clear enough when properly citing each role. In other words, Graff and Pontac are actually a localization and adaptation team, not true script writers, likely taking rough translations and then according to strict rules of scene timing, outlined plot points, and more, drafting and authoring from that the English version of the script. In that case, I fondly look forward to the eventual fan translation of the Japanese script so we can figure out just how much of anything truly worthwhile was lost in translation and adaptation and how much of this was Totoda and his associates' folly.

I mean.. Iizuka's also been saying that the "classic world and characters" were separate from Modern for a while now, so that's a Sonic Team thing.

Quote

Has anybody noticed that Mighty the Armadillo is missing?

Iizuka: Mighty is a part of the Classic world and the Classic group of characters, and some of the Chaotix did get interpreted for the Modern vision of the games. However, Mighty still exists in the Classic world, so maybe we'll see him in the future in some Classic iteration.

 

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

37 minutes ago, hifihedgehog said:

No, but Sonic, who just endured months of torture, jokes literally two or three times in a row when he faces Infinite again for the first time since his escape.

I think they were just going for sonic to have that attitude that no matter what he endures, torture or anything, he just can't be broken.

[hifihedgehog]

11 minutes ago, Booblur99 said:

I think they were just going for sonic to have that attitude that no matter what he endures, torture or anything, he just can't be broken.

I understand that, but there is a standing rule in film and comics that you generally show and do not tell unless you will illustrate powerfully through a later scene the effects of that verbally stated occurrence. Another thing that bugged me was the short textual explanation that states that Eggman conquers the entire world shortly after capturing Sonic. It would have been so much more impactful if they illustrated that through various quick, powerful scenes of mechanized invasion and roboticized devastation throughout the world. It would have become so much more real with perhaps that text serving only as subtitles to clarify what was happening on-screen.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

2 minutes ago, hifihedgehog said:

I understand that, but there is a standing rule in film and comics that you generally show and do it tell unless you will illustrate through a later scene the effects of that verbal occurrence. Another thing that bugged me was the short textual explanation that states that Eggman conquers the entire world shortly after capturing Sonic. It would have been so much more moving if they illustrated that through various quick, powerful scenes of mechanized invasion and roboticized devastation. It would have become more real with perhaps that text serving only as subtitles to clarify what is happening on-screen.

I agree with you there. They could've showed it happening instead of text and then cut to vector walking in complaining lol. Like, show knuckles struggling against a death egg mech or something. I agree with the rule 'show don't tell.'

[Razule]

18 minutes ago, Booblur99 said:

I think they were just going for sonic to have that attitude that no matter what he endures, torture or anything, he just can't be broken.

Yeah, but what was the point of mentioning it if it's never mentioned again anyway? Endurance, yeah, I don't expect Sonic to break down sobbing, but he just plain acts like nothing ever happened. It just kinda.. dehumanizes him. 

Imo he should've been a bit vengeful. Or just not mention the torture at all, since it has no real bearing on anything outside of that one line.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

Just now, Razule said:

Yeah, but what was the point of mentioning it if it's never mentioned again anyway? Endurance, yeah, I don't expect Sonic to break down sobbing, but he just plain acts like nothing ever happened. It just kinda.. dehumanizes him. 

Imo he should've been a bit vengeful. Or just mention the torture at all

Yeah or just visibly show scars or something on him. Heck, none of the characters have any scars or marks on them showing that they've been through a hard struggle for six months.

[DoubleXXCross]

I think I've become mean now.

[Sean]

I don't want to see the effects of Sonic having endured six months of torture in this or in any game. I want the writers to not fucking mention that sort of shit in a Sonic game, period. You can say that he was imprisoned for a while or something, but not "he was tortured for six months," or don't even specify the precise length of time at all, especially if you're not going to put in the effort of showing just how Eggman came to rule in the first place.

This goes beyond "show, not tell," this just straight up reaches "don't tell us this in any way." Torturing the main character does not belong in a series of this demographic and it's a clear example of a throwaway "wow we're so edge" line for pure shock value.

[Salamander]

The timeskip as a whole honestly seems unnecessary.  Just go from Sonic falling unconscious, to the Resistance talking about how things have been bad "since Sonic was taken out," and then let the fans decide for themselves how big an interval there was.  If Sonic was only gone a short time, that eliminates half the plot hole of the fluctuating levels of destruction in the various stages before and after the timeskip - the city doesn't change, Green Hill is sometimes worse and sometimes better...

[rahkeesh]

8 minutes ago, Sean said:

Torturing the main character does not belong in a series of this demographic and it's a clear example of a throwaway "wow we're so edge" line for pure shock value.

Maybe Nakamura liked Freedom Planet?

[Sean]

Freedom Planet can do whatever it wants since it's a new franchise. The problem with Sonic doing it is that this is an established character of over 20 years well-known and adored by children all over. There are some lines you just simply do not cross with a character with that type of recognition.

[Dr. Mechano]

But again, here's why the dimensional retcon is a a problem: Forces is full of levels from the classic games, which are ostensibly from modern Sonic's past.

...but now, thanks to the retcon, the Genesis games never happened. Sonic's never been to Chemical Plant, or the Death Egg, or even Green Hill Zone (except as a bonus stage in SA2, or during the events of Generations). It's like Forces wants to have its cake and eat it too: "Look at all these cool setpieces from Sonic's past... that, thanks to our retcon, aren't from Sonic's past!"

It makes such a big to-do of these classic zones being trashed by Eggman, but we've basically never seen them before in this timeline. And Sonic logically shouldn't have had any adventures there either if the Genesis games never happened in this timeline. So the big reveal of "Oh, look at all of Sonic's old stomping grounds getting ruined by Eggman!" kinda doesn't work, at all.

[speedfreak]

I think we're to assume some form of the classic Sonic's history also took place with the Modern incarnations. 

[Razule]

11 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

But again, here's why the dimensional retcon is a a problem: Forces is full of levels from the classic games, which are ostensibly from modern Sonic's past.

...but now, thanks to the retcon, the Genesis games never happened. Sonic's never been to Chemical Plant, or the Death Egg, or even Green Hill Zone (except as a bonus stage in SA2, or during the events of Generations). It's like Forces wants to have its cake and eat it too: "Look at all these cool setpieces from Sonic's past... that, thanks to our retcon, aren't from Sonic's past!"

It makes such a big to-do of these classic zones being trashed by Eggman, but we've basically never seen them before in this timeline. And Sonic logically shouldn't have had any adventures there either if the Genesis games never happened in this timeline. So the big reveal of "Oh, look at all of Sonic's old stomping grounds getting ruined by Eggman!" kinda doesn't work, at all.

Or.. the games still happened in Modern Sonic's dimension, but with Modern Sonic instead of classic designs. It's unnecessary, but I think that's what they're going for. It's the easiest explanation.

i'm honestly a bit confuzzled why everytime this comes up people reason that they're saying Sonic has literally never been to these locations?

Classic Sonic Universe: Sonic 1; Sonic 2; Sonic 3 and Knuckles; (Sonic CD somewhere); Sonic Mania

Modern Sonic Universe: Sonic 1-3K in some form; Sonic Adventure..etc

I think it overcomplicates things, but it's not very hard to reason..? 

Like in Pokemon from X and Y onward, the games take place in another universe where there's something called Mega Evolution. It isn't a plothole when things from before that game are referenced or redesigned past characters return because it goes without saying they still happened but in a new way.

[Dr. Mechano]

8 minutes ago, speedfreak said:

I think we're to assume some form of the classic Sonic's history also took place with the Modern incarnations. 

I mean, if they're going to make the classic games canon anyway, why do the separate dimensions thing at all? It boggles the mind.

If what you're saying is correct, we effectively have a universe where all the games happened, and then another universe where only the classic games happened. What's the point of even doing that?

1 minute ago, Razule said:

Like in Pokemon from X and Y onward, the games take place in another universe where there's something called Mega Evolution. It isn't a plothole when things from before that game are referenced or redesigned past characters return because it goes without saying they still happened but in a new way.

But... nothing plot-wise seems to have changed if that's what they're doing. Certainly nothing as drastic as mega-evolution, per your example. Did we need two dimensions to explain that the characters got taller and/or changed clothes?

This is bordering on Ken Penders' weird magical explanations for the shift to the Adventure designs in terms of being needlessly complicated.