Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[Penny]

Until a game specifically says they are exactly the same, I will continue to headcanon Classic in Gens and Mania Sonic as two different Sonics, with Classic from the past and Mania from another dimension.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, Penny said:

Until a game specifically says they are exactly the same, I will continue to headcanon Classic in Gens and Mania Sonic as two different Sonics, with Classic from the past and Mania from another dimension.

In Forces, Sonic establishes them as the same character.

"Hey! It's been generations since I saw you!"

Clearly they've met before, and as the dialogue says with all the subtlety of a truck, it was in Generations. Which is even more confusing, because Generations clearly says classic Sonic is Sonic from the past. So Generations still happened, but not the way we actually saw it in the game? Uggh, I hate this.

[Razule]

17 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

I mean, if they're going to make the classic games canon anyway, why do the separate dimensions thing at all? It boggles the mind.

If what you're saying is correct, we effectively have a universe where all the games happened, and then another universe where only the classic games happened. What's the point of even doing that?

But... nothing plot-wise seems to have changed if that's what they're doing. Certainly nothing as drastic as mega-evolution, per your example. Did we need two dimensions to explain that the characters got taller and/or changed clothes?

This is bordering on Ken Penders' weird magical explanations for the shift to the Adventure designs in terms of being needlessly complicated.

I'd guess it gives an excuse to continue making Classic style games and having Classic and Modern interact without thinking about the timeline. 

Well.. I hate to be that guy but everyone's eyes have changed color, Amy aged four years, and Eggman has had a growth spurt in middle age and plastic surgery

Then there's the Super Emerald's nonexistence, the Chaotix, Hidden Palace, Sonic Adventure having flashbacks in their modern designs..etc

I mean.. it could potentially be as drastic as mega evolution, but we don't know exactly how past stuff played out aside from that it happened in some way.

12 minutes ago, Penny said:

Until a game specifically says they are exactly the same, I will continue to headcanon Classic in Gens and Mania Sonic as two different Sonics, with Classic from the past and Mania from another dimension.

Forces literally says they're the same.

[Osmium]

AVGN is gonna have to make a bloody "chronologically confused about Sonic" video now. lol

I'm not even bothering with thinking about all this. Not worth it in the slightest. 

[Penny]

I understand that there's lines that imply they're the same, but as I said in a post previously in this thread (that I can't find for the life of me lol) I just headcanon that the Time Eater incident gave the modern characters some sort of brain aneurysm which makes them think Mania Sonic and Classic Sonic are the same. Mania Sonic just goes with it because his life has taken a strange fuckin turn lately and he feels it's best not to question it.

 

Easier for me to accept than retconning a huge core part of Generations story

[StaticMania]

Tails acknowledges that Classic Sonic is from another dimension while also having the line say that he recognizes him from a previous event.

[speedfreak]

12 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

I mean, if they're going to make the classic games canon anyway, why do the separate dimensions thing at all? It boggles the mind.

If what you're saying is correct, we effectively have a universe where all the games happened, and then another universe where only the classic games happened. What's the point of even doing that?

I mean it's pretty obvious the people in charge of Sonic don't know what the fuck they're doing. Not only on the gameplay front but in the story front as well. They're making something that should be extremely simple into something needlessly convoluted. 

I agree it's stupid but that's the shit we're gonna have to deal with untill someone who knows what the fuck they're doing comes along (please someone come along!) and rights the ship. 

[Dr. Mechano]

10 minutes ago, Razule said:

I'd guess it gives an excuse to continue making Classic style games and having Classic and Modern interact without thinking about the timeline. 

Well.. I hate to be that guy but everyone's eyes have changed color, Amy aged four years, and Eggman has had a growth spurt in middle age and plastic surgery

Then there's the Super Emerald's nonexistence, the Chaotix, Hidden Palace, Sonic Adventure having flashbacks in their modern designs..etc

Some of that just feels like a shift in art direction, though. Like, Mario used to look like a mustachioed Popeye, and whenever we did see art with his eyes open during this period, they were black. His iconic mustache was also a simple common handlebar style, not the distinctive "Mario 'stache" shape it's known for today:

 

Did we really need an in-canon explanation for how he got his blue eyes and a rounder face? Can't it just be chalked up to a shift in art direction rather than requiring complicated lore to justify gradual design evolution?

I just feel like splitting the canon into two separate dimensions is needlessly overcomplicated for something so minor.

[darkfist_flames]

2 hours ago, Gabz Girl said:

 

They really need to change some of Eggman's personality, which is something i was hoping with Forces since he took 99% of the world, like having a different kinda of clothing after 6 month later for his victory over sonic, having statues of himself, or force people to praise him(but he prefer to turn them into robots  and sonic was killing people all along), but nope hes the same as any other game, for how long are they going to make him that "villain who has mindless robot minions", yes he does have cubot and orbot, but their role are always the same, only talking to eggman as an assistance.

[Badnik Mechanic]

1 hour ago, Sean said:

I don't want to see the effects of Sonic having endured six months of torture in this or in any game. 

Given how they handled Tails' PTSD can you imagine how they would have handled if it they had gone there.

[GuyWithThePie]

31 minutes ago, Razule said:

Like in Pokemon from X and Y onward, the games take place in another universe where there's something called Mega Evolution. It isn't a plothole when things from before that game are referenced or redesigned past characters return because it goes without saying they still happened but in a new way.

This is also why the returning team leaders in Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon use their original designs. It's to show that they came from a different universe.

[Salamander]

I think the impetus for a many-worlds interpretation of Pokemon is that they always produced multiple versions of each game and the remakes have only increased the figure, and so the use of multiple universes is just a self-aware acknowledgement of that fact.  Sonic, meanwhile, just has games with different art styles, much like any other long-running video game franchise you could name.

If you want to put the Forces retcon in a context where it makes sense, here's what I do: Every time they say "dimension," pretend they actually said "time."  With the tiniest change, suddenly there is no contradiction!

[Razule]

23 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

Some of that just feels like a shift in art direction, though. Like, Mario used to look like a mustachioed Popeye, and whenever we did see art with his eyes open during this period, they were black. His iconic mustache was also a simple common handlebar style, not the distinctive "Mario 'stache" shape it's known for today:

 

Did we really need an in-canon explanation for how he got his blue eyes and a rounder face? Can't it just be chalked up to a shift in art direction rather than requiring complicated lore to justify gradual design evolution?

I just feel like splitting the canon into two separate dimensions is needlessly overcomplicated for something so minor.

We don't and we didn't need one, but they made it weird in Generations by introducing Classic even when he was his past self. Which could still work without an explanation, as a fourth wall gag. But I guess they're so used to over explaining things that they just had to make it even weirder.

Maybe it's also that they didn't like that it kind of made it seem like he aged into Modern when they didn't consider it that way, so they split them so both Sonics would remain timeless.

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Razule said:

Or.. the games still happened in Modern Sonic's dimension, but with Modern Sonic instead of classic designs. It's unnecessary, but I think that's what they're going for. It's the easiest explanation.

i'm honestly a bit confuzzled why everytime this comes up people reason that they're saying Sonic has literally never been to these locations?

Classic Sonic Universe: Sonic 1; Sonic 2; Sonic 3 and Knuckles; (Sonic CD somewhere); Sonic Mania

Modern Sonic Universe: Sonic 1-3K in some form; Sonic Adventure..etc

I think it overcomplicates things, but it's not very hard to reason..? 

Like in Pokemon from X and Y onward, the games take place in another universe where there's something called Mega Evolution. It isn't a plothole when things from before that game are referenced or redesigned past characters return because it goes without saying they still happened but in a new way.

Possibly an Adventure uninverse somewhere, which explains the difference in characterizations? 

[speedfreak]

That feeling you get when you realize the Sonic timeline is more complicated then the Zelda timeline. 

I think Sega should release a Hedgehog Historia book to sort this out.

[Razule]

7 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Possibly an Adventure uninverse somewhere, which explains the difference in characterizations? 

Well.. possibly, but I think SEGA currently considers Millenia and Modern Sonic the same brand. 

[Sean]

The thing that gets me about this single throwaway line is that I don't have a problem with this existing in the series in general. Take Shadow for example. I'm not the biggest fan of him but I will admit that since the series always ran off on ideas that tried to be cool and radical, his introduction and role in SA2 made sense; he was the anti-Sonic with a dark, tragic history. Fine, I can accept that, and I can even accept SA2's dark backstory with Gerald's execution and Maria losing her life as a catalyst for Shadow's development and motivations in order to make him seem "cool." It's not stuff I would have expected out of Sonic back in 1991, but since the Adventure era was where Sega tried to make the series a little more "grown up," they at least had the courtesy of not altering any of the already-existing elements in the series like Sonic and Tails themselves.

However you can't take any of this shit and put it up onto Sonic himself. Sega made separate characters and elements to fulfill those darker aspects during that era, and that's why I don't have a problem with those necessarily. But putting Sonic in a suddenly horrifying situation like being imprisoned and tortured for six month is so fucking off-kilter to me that it comes off as flabbergasting and hilarious. It's just fucking idiotic and uncharacteristic.

[Dr. Mechano]

3 minutes ago, Sean said:

However you can't take any of this shit and put it up onto Sonic himself. Sega made separate characters and elements to fulfill those darker aspects during that era, and that's why I don't have a problem with those necessarily. But putting Sonic in a suddenly horrifying situation like being imprisoned and tortured for six month is so fucking off-kilter to me that it comes off as flabbergasting and hilarious. It's just fucking idiotic and uncharacteristic.

Plus he's no worse for wear when he gets out. He just immediately grins and cracks jokes like nothing happened.

Here Sonic feels less like a person that endured six months of torture and more like some perpetually smirking, wise-cracking soulless golem that exists solely to fight Eggman.

Like, Sonic getting tortured in the first place was stupid. Having him not be affected by it all makes it both stupid and pointless.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Episode Shadow now on PSN.

It's just over 300MB.

No extra boss for you!

[Sean]

ugh can't believe I'm getting this annoyed over a single throwaway line in this game. Maybe that's why I'm annoyed - it's because it's throwaway that I'm wracking my brain over why the writers included it in the first place. It doesn't fit the series, nor is relevant to anything in the game at all.

I actually think Forces' plot is pretty unremarkable as a whole other than that. I was expecting a colossal trainwreck of a plot, but what I got was a small motorized scooter accident instead. There's really nothing else for me to say about it other than I think it's rather bland, forgettable, and lacking in typical Sonic personality.

[KittyNakajima]

8 minutes ago, Sean said:

The thing that gets me about this single throwaway line is that I don't have a problem with this existing in the series in general. Take Shadow for example. I'm not the biggest fan of him but I will admit that since the series always ran off on ideas that tried to be cool and radical, his introduction and role in SA2 made sense; he was the anti-Sonic with a dark, tragic history. Fine, I can accept that, and I can even accept SA2's dark backstory with Gerald's execution and Maria losing her life as a catalyst for Shadow's development and motivations in order to make him seem "cool." It's not stuff I would have expected out of Sonic back in 1991, but since the Adventure era was where Sega tried to make the series a little more "grown up," they at least had the courtesy of not altering any of the already-existing elements in the series like Sonic and Tails themselves.

However you can't take any of this shit and put it up onto Sonic himself. Sega made separate characters and elements to fulfill those darker aspects during that era, and that's why I don't have a problem with those necessarily. But putting Sonic in a suddenly horrifying situation like being imprisoned and tortured for six month is so fucking off-kilter to me that it comes off as flabbergasting and hilarious. It's just fucking idiotic and uncharacteristic.

Agreed. They've introduced these other characters to play around with more drama to the games. But suddenly cutting and pasting it onto Sonic? They would have to significantly change or alter his character in this game or show the lingering effects in future titles. Like smoking blunts in between speed runs to get his nerves together?

It would require advancing his characterization to show a vulnerability; a side that you never even knew he had. But given that they just kind of threw in that line, I doubt they'd go for that depth.

 

 

[Multikaris]

5 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Episode Shadow now on PSN.

It's just over 300MB.

No extra boss for you!

Unless...

 

It’s Disc-Locked Content.

[Razule]

8 minutes ago, SaberX said:

The whole scene acts as if nothing happened at all. It feels like months and minutes are the same thing.

Yeah, it didn't even really have to be six months.. it could have been six weeks. Not like the world has gotten much worse, the city's already ruined, Green Hill is already sandy, and it's not like Eggman hasn't done things in a seemingly short amount of time anyway.

[KittyNakajima]

4 minutes ago, Sean said:

ugh can't believe I'm getting this annoyed over a single throwaway line in this game. Maybe that's why I'm annoyed - it's because it's throwaway that I'm wracking my brain over why the writers included it in the first place. It doesn't fit the series, nor is relevant to anything in the game at all.

I actually think Forces' plot is pretty unremarkable as a whole other than that. I was expecting a colossal trainwreck of a plot, but what I got was a small motorized scooter accident instead. There's really nothing else for me to say about it other than I think it's rather bland, forgettable, and lacking in typical Sonic personality.

 

^ THIS. You must be reading my mind, man.

But you're definitely right about Forces' lackluster plot. Being an anniversary(?) game, that makes up like half the game:

Sonic Adventure 2: 10th anniversary. Murder of an innocent girl causes her grandfather to go crazy with grief and exact revenge on the world in the distant future

Sonic 06: 15th. Freezer clone of Shadow kills Sonic with his lazer, being the first and ONLY foe to do so. Deus Ex Machina undoes that.

Generations: 20th Anniversary. Plot twist near the end of game connects it with its predecessor; Classic and Modern are past and present versions of themselves

Forces: 25th Anniversary. Ties into Mania in a very lazy way; Eggman has essentially created a Freddy Krueger OC to scar the world.

 

 

 

[Razule]

6 minutes ago, SaberX said:

I can assure that be imprisionated for a long time for someone whos aways running and like to be free sure makes a lot of difference, no matter how the world is. I think that second issue of Sonic Boom comic pretty much represents what is supposed to be.

Yeah, but that's.. an assumption. The game doesn't say that, game says Sonic was tortured, full stop. Yes, I suppose being locked in a cell would be torture to Sonic, but they chose to word it the way they did and not actually explain it so I have reason to believe it could literally mean anything.

Besides, Knuckles says he was told that by an informant. Would Knuckles and an random anthro soldier classify that as torture? Unless maybe.. it was more than that