Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[Ultimate Victory 64]

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Where in the hell was shadow during the several months a frigging clone of him was going around doing badguy stuff?

Looking for that DAMN FOURTH CHAOS EMERALD

[StaticMania]

He was under Infinite's Ruby illusion powers...

[GentlemanX]

Since Episode Shadow dropped, I finally went ahead and watched a full play through.

I was mostly interested in the story and... well it's kind of a mixed bag. On one hand, I can easily say this is my favorite story since at the very least Unleashed. I liked there being bigger stakes and appreciated the game actually used the extended cast even if only in the form of the communicator for the most part. Classic is shoehorned in, sure, but he doesn't stick out like a sore thumb or anything - the plot's serious not dark which is what I prefer. There's been a lot of overhyping the torture line for example - it's barely a blip on the radar that never gets the focus you'd assume it does based on the reaction here. I'm actually a big fan of Infinite. I love his arrogant tough guy personality contrasting with his honestly surprising loyalty to Eggman. He really feels like he's Eggman's general for his forces, keeping him from turning into the monster of the week other villains like Mephiles, Erazor, Arthur, Dark Gaia, Time Eater etc. felt like (even if I liked some of those). Unlike those guys, I feel like Infinite could actually stick around as a reoccurring character if they wanted to. I think the Avatar is integrated fairly well into the plot, at least as far as player insert characters go. I wish the wolf avatar was just a new character for the series instead, but I realize the appeal is the character creator aspect so it's fine.

That said, the plot definitely has a lot of problems. First, the time skip feels completely forced and creates a bunch of unneeded questions and unnatural responses. It would have made a lot more sense for Sonic to have been captured and then his friends immediately form a team to rescue him. Second, yeah, Tails' lack of independence is definitely unfortunate. I think this is a mandated thing, given this isn't a new problem and has essentially been an issue since 06 and comes up nearly every game, but the time skip and the early cutscenes really accentuate the problem making it bigger than it normally is. Again, I think Tails' treatment isn't any different from what we've seen in 06, Unleashed, Colors, Generations, and Lost World, but the game certainly isn't improving anything. Third, yes, the returning villains concept is utterly wasted. Ignoring the fact that they never even bother using Chaos and Shadow, the mystery angle is abandoned basically as soon as the fight with Zavok ends and even though he gets a boss fight Metal Sonic is equally wasted. As something with a lot of promise and a ton of promotion, it's definitely a bait and switch. Finally, it's really frustrating that it feels like so many details are left out either due to laziness or time constraints. The cutscenes that are just heads talking is annoying as hell because they're important but the game treats them more like an RPG than an action title, refusing to allow them to build atmosphere or make them visually appealing. This is especially noticeable in Episode Shadow where Shadow and Infinite are clearly doing things but the format sucks all the tension out. I didn't like this in Unleashed Wii and I don't like it here either.

As a whole, this is still nowhere near the level of the Adventure games, 06, or the storybook titles, but I think it's about even with say Heroes, Unleashed, or the first two Riders games. Definitely better than Colors through Lost World and I appreciate that.

What I had no expectations for was the gameplay and honestly? I think it looks pretty fun. The obvious detractors are that there are essentially only seven stages with the different characters feeling repetitive. It's the same issue I have with the Classic games or Heroes, and I think SA1, SA2, 06, and Generations all did a better job of having the similar areas with different characters feel unique each time. I also don't like how short each level is, since I usually like my Sonic levels in the 5-9 minute range rather than these quick 1-2 minutes. But I love how each of the stages looks with some really standing out as impressive like the Death Egg, Chemical Plant, and Mystic Jungle. The music rocks with a ton of tracks I can't wait to hear clean rips of. It's hard to say what I think of the actual gameplay without controlling the characters myself. The play through I watched had the Avatar exclusively using the Fire Wispon, so I'd definitely like to see what the other ones can do.

I'll probably have more thoughts later, but that's just kind of my initial reactions.

[PKGaming]

I have one question. Why the hell is Silver here? How the hell is Silver here? Can he just jump to and from the future anytime he wants? Plus, if the story of Sonic 06 never actually happened, how does he know Sonic and friends? Silver never made sense to me. 

[Bobnik]

15 minutes ago, PKGaming said:

Plus, if the story of Sonic 06 never actually happened, how does he know Sonic and friends?

Rivals is canon apparently.

[KHCast]

1 minute ago, Bobnik said:

Rivals is canon apparently.

But if Gens is canon the the events of 06 happened, which means silver conveniently meets sonic and co, twice for similar reasons.

[StaticMania]

3 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

The obvious detractors are that there are essentially only seven stages with the different characters feeling repetitive. It's the same issue I have with the Classic games or Heroes, and I think SA1, SA2, 06, and Generations all did a better job of having the similar areas with different characters feel unique each time.

Why are you including the Classic games in this, it doesn't really make sense...

 

Buuuuuut also this is another thing...you're freeing the world from Eggman, but you only visit 7 places and 3 areas apart of those places. How is this freeing the whole world from Eggman?

And blowing up the Death Egg counts as freeing the world, how the heck does this make sense? 

[Shadowlax]

4 hours ago, StaticMania said:

He was under Infinite's Ruby illusion powers...

Where?

Also for months?

Also They don't specific that, the end of his DLC is him going to go help sonic at the beginning of the actual game. There is no specification, none as to where shadow went for those several months. 

There is a giant plot hole in this narrative

[Blue Wisp]

Hold a gosh diggly diddly doodley second. 

I just got to Death Egg Classic. 

Not only did they take things from the original Sonic and Knuckles stage which caught me offguard, but after getting distracted by the background, did they actually reference Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Episode 2's Death Egg Mk.2? I swear they look extremely similar.

If so then omg sonic forces references sonic 4 yes I am happy.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

4 hours ago, KHCast said:

But if Gens is canon the the events of 06 happened, which means silver conveniently meets sonic and co, twice for similar reasons.

But 06 isn't not canon, it just erases it's events from the timeline and everyone's memories. So Silver does meet them twice for the same reasons, but it might as well be the first time for all any of them remember.

On-topic, my thoughts on the game.

Spoiler

 

Forces is pretty...something? The level design is definitely a struggle at points. I was worried that the game would be too easy, but it seems to be following Lost World's lead. AKA the levels can be beaten relatively easy but the extra shit is annoying. The EX and secret stages are both somewhat challenging, which is nice. And, like...some levels are really much better than others? Egg Gate has so much more going on than Temple Factory or whatever the first tag level is called. Classic Sonic obviously isn't 1:1 with Mania or S3K, but he does feel less-stiff than in Generations somehow. The lack of spamdash helps that. Sonic doesn't feel much different from Colors, honestly. I like the boost-hop thing he has. The avatar works well enough as long as you COMPLETELY SKIP THE FUCKING ELECTRIC WHIP HOLY SHIT. It's so bad. Every other wispon is fine. They get the job done. But stay away from that one. It just knocks you around like crazy. There's no logic. It's terrible. This should be the element of ultimate challenge runs on replays or speedruns. Other than that...the avatar's kinda dull. I think if they had maybe one more unique mechanic they'd stand out a bit better. Grappling, wispon, and, I dunno, some kind of glide or hover?

Shadow might play okay, but I won't know until I play more levels with him. The fact that I can say that after finishing Episode Shadow says a lot about the width of that part of the game, content-wise.

I love the way the game looks and sounds. The levels are super lush and all the background shit going on makes them feel more alive than something like Lost World. The Switch is a definite downgrade graphically, but it still looks nice regardless. I'd take this over Unwiished 2.0 that's for sure.

This game has probably the best voicework in the mainline series in a while. It's weird too, because I think all the dialogue shit that isn't related to the main plot is good. Sonic just being a dork is the writing at it's best. I actually laughed at the spiel he went on with Infinite. I was hoping nobody would take this guy seriously, and Sonic doesn't. That's good enough for me. 

That said, whenever the dialogue is "Sonic is tortured" or "the secret to his power" (Sonic seriously says that exact sequence of words three times), I'm cringing. The story in general isn't really good, but I appreciate that an attempt was made. Infinite's hardly an interesting villain, but he's cool to look at and the first new mobian character to show up since...Marine, I guess? I'm glad he was just some asshole that Eggman pumped full of ruby instead of the ancient god of whatever-who-cares that betrays Eggman at the end of the game (though the final boss just being another Colors/Lost World runner is extremely unsatisfying). His status as leader of a merc group also makes me want to see the Egg Army in the games. I love them all so much in the comics, Sonic Team, please. 

The avatar customization is deeper than I could have hoped. There's so much weird, stupid bullshit. It's perfect. I can look so terrible. I had no expectations or even ideas of what I was going to do with this thing. I haven't given two fucks about OCs since I axed my own back in like 2008 (hadly even remember what he looked like). But here? I can play as a dog-man in a dress with a bumper for a face, wearing soap shoes, fighting the ultimate Eggman weapon in the form of Infinite. Hell yes. If Sonic will mock him in dialogue, I will mock him by how stupid I look when he gets his ass beaten.

Overall. Yes, this game isn't as good as it should be. Yes, it's a step back from Generations in gameplay. YES, it feels like a filler game, or like it was based off Lost World. But no, I don't think it's actually bad. I think it's a weird blend of remarkable and boring elements to create something I half-like but half-couldn't care less about. It's more than obvious something was going on in development, be it another game yet to come out, another game that was cancelled, or just general creative differences on the staff, but the result, while hardly a masterpiece, didn't end up the disaster that many worried it would (and I daresay some wanted it to) turn out as. It's a polarizing mixed-bag for sure.

"Shadow Lost World Heroes" is a title that describes this game well. It's a perfectly-balanced blend of good, bad, weird, stupid, and cheese. The game itself may as well be a metaphor for the entire franchise, thinking about it.

It leaves me in immense curiosity of where the series is headed from here. I don't see "3D mania" happening any time soon, since the mania devs are working on other stuff, and to my knowledge there is not a single fully-complete 3D fangame that meets the idea of what people apparently want out of 3D Sonic. If someone can perfectly reproduce Sonic's physics from SA2 in a fangame, then sure it can happen, but until then, parroting "MAKE A 3D MANIA" isn't going to do anything.

I don't want this game to be a massive influence on future games anymore than you guys do. But that said, I can't bring myself to hate this thing, or to say there's nothing good about it. I can't dislike a game on principle or for what it could cause, only for what the game itself is. And what this is...is alright, I guess.
That one red ring in Metropolis Avatar. The one on the rail? That can eat a fucking dick, though.

 

 

[Korke]

8 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

Again, I think Tails' treatment isn't any different from what we've seen in 06, Unleashed, Colors, Generations, and Lost World,

There is a catch, though. SLW Tails was certainly capable to getting things done himself, the problem there was his cunty attitude.

[superman43]

3 hours ago, Blue Wisp said:

Hold a gosh diggly diddly doodley second. 

I just got to Death Egg Classic. 

Not only did they take things from the original Sonic and Knuckles stage which caught me offguard, but after getting distracted by the background, did they actually reference Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Episode 2's Death Egg Mk.2? I swear they look extremely similar.

If so then omg sonic forces references sonic 4 yes I am happy.

I get the feel of it as if it was the Death Egg Mk.2 itself. 

[DabigRG]

8 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

I'm actually a big fan of Infinite. I love his arrogant tough guy personality contrasting with his honestly surprising loyalty to Eggman. He really feels like he's Eggman's general for his forces, keeping him from turning into the monster of the week other villains like Mephiles, Erazor, Arthur, Dark Gaia, Time Eater etc. felt like (even if I liked some of those). Unlike those guys, I feel like Infinite could actually stick around as a reoccurring character if they wanted to.

I think the Avatar is integrated fairly well into the plot, at least as far as player insert characters go. I wish the wolf avatar was just a new character for the series instead, but I realize the appeal is the character creator aspect so it's fine.

Yeah, I definitely liked that as well. Well that and the interesting bit of development where Eggman warns him letting Sonic live at that stage of the game was reckless. Plus, he had a few funny lines of his own.

 

Agreed.

 

 

[DabigRG]

Okay, watching a cutscene vid with the text conversations included and I have three things to point out right now:

1.Shadow says the copies are supposed to be as strong as the originals. Which...really doesn't make sense.

2.Silver and Knuckles discuss something similar with the fake Shadow a few scenes later. Does that mean fake Shadow shows up again during a level or something?

3.Is there a voice change option for the Avatar?

 

 

 

I know this is off topic, but I just decided to share this.

 

[dbzfan7]

27 minutes ago, Korke said:

There is a catch, though. SLW Tails was certainly capable to getting things done himself, the problem there was his cunty attitude.

Yeah right. I'd like to see SLW Tails try to even do anything if Sonic is not there. I highly doubt he could. He could never get even close to being capable without Sonic holding his hand.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, dbzfan7 said:

I'd like to see SLW Tails try to even do anything if Sonic is not there.

Okay. How about this? He reprogrammed the roboticization (for lack of a better word) machine, tricking the Zeti into thinking he was under their control and giving him a gun, so he could help chase them off later.

[dbzfan7]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Okay. How about this? He reprogrammed the roboticization (for lack of a better word) machine, tricking the Zeti into thinking he was under their control and giving him a gun, so he could help chase them off later.

And take out all the Zeti, and then later Eggman in his big robot. I doubt it. I highly doubt he could have stopped the lost hex stuff without Sonic. If Sonic was never there, he wouldn't succeed. He's a weak helpless fox who has to hide behind rocks all the time.

[Blue Wisp]

Alright, turns out you can only use Shadow in these stages:

- Lost Valley (Modern Green Hill)

- Sunset Heights

- Network Terminal (Modern Chemical Plant)

- Metropolitan Highway (Modern Metropolis)

- Mortar Canyon (Modern Eggman Empire Fortress)

- Secret 2 (Vanish Panel 1)

- Secret 3 (Bomb Block 1)

- Secret 5 (Laser Cannon 1)

- Flying Pod (Extra 1)

and probably another Extra stage I didn't unlock yet so it tallies up to 10 modern stages.

Which means you CAN'T use Shadow in Egg Gate (why, it's the best stage) and Luminous Forest for... Some reason.

Also you need to beat the stage first before you can use Shadow. 

[Diogenes]

And take out all the Zeti, and then later Eggman in his big robot. I doubt it. I highly doubt he could have stopped the lost hex stuff without Sonic. If Sonic was never there, he wouldn't succeed. He's a weak helpless fox who has to hide behind rocks all the time.

What are you even talking about? Does Tails need to be omnipotent to be competent? You're setting ridiculous, unreachable standards. May as well say Sonic's a useless piece of shit because he'd never be able to reprogram Eggman's machine.

Which means you CAN'T use Shadow in Egg Gate (why, it's the best stage) and Luminous Forest for... Some reason.

The QTEs, probably. IIRC those are the only Modern Sonic stages with big flashy QTE sequences.

[Shadowlax]

9 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

 I'm actually a big fan of Infinite. I love his arrogant tough guy personality contrasting with his honestly surprising loyalty to Eggman. He really feels like he's Eggman's general for his forces, keeping him from turning into the monster of the week other villains like Mephiles, Erazor, Arthur, Dark Gaia, Time Eater etc. felt like (even if I liked some of those). Unlike those guys, I feel like Infinite could actually stick around as a reoccurring character if they wanted to.

I think infnite's concept is kind of ruined and done, I mean there is a chance it might not be done, but we'll get to that at the end. 

To put it simply, him with the phantom ruby is entirely too powerful to just have around, yes granted sonic and buddy got him, and he never fought shadow after loosing to him, but infinite summoned a damn sun and the only think that could stop it, broke afterwards. He's like to powerful , sonic has some tough customers heck with shadow's new found chaos emerald-less time stop he's basically dio now. But the ability create suns out of nothing, is beyond anything that you can really do on a normal basis. You can't make that guy a normal enemy because the question then becomes " He can just charge up and summon another sun and burn everyone to death " 

So then you go, ok ok. Phantom Ruby got destroyed, then he can just be a normal egg man general. Ok, so then he's just a dude, he's just furry deathstroke, and he doesn't seem that formidable. The only thing making him formidable, was his new powers, with those gone, he has nothing. Now sure, Shadow's super good at fighting so using shadow as a barometer for everyone elses fighting prowess in sonic is a bit weird. But even still Shadow made quick work of the guy, and doubt sonic or anyone else couldn't either. 

You could have him like... be a guy who is piloting eggmans robots sometimes... but at that point why not just make it a robot.  Eggman can make him like a special fighting suit? maybe they do some weird body horror thing and eggman keeps augmenting him every time he gets beat?

I think the real answer though, this game might be swept under the rug if infinite is bothered to be reintroduced 

[DabigRG]

Lol, Sonic lampshades the fact that Metal Sonic is fake.

[Blue Wisp]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The QTEs, probably. IIRC those are the only Modern Sonic stages with big flashy QTE sequences.

Oh yeah the spaceship and the giant snake.

That's stupid. 

But oh well. 

[dbzfan7]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What are you even talking about? Does Tails need to be omnipotent to be competent? You're setting ridiculous, unreachable standards. May as well say Sonic's a useless piece of shit because he'd never be able to reprogram Eggman's machine.

No I'm saying he's not competent. His entire roll could have been just sitting in the plane until Sonic radios him telling him the danger has passed and then doing his work on the machine. Heck Sonic probably coulda finished it by the time the Zeti turned on Eggman.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Blue Wisp said:

Oh yeah the spaceship and the giant snake.

That's stupid. 

But oh well. 

Don't worry

PC mods will probably fix that right up, if they are interested in modding the game that is. They kinda gave up on lost world

[dbzfan7]

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

Don't worry

PC mods will probably fix that right up, if they are interested in modding the game that is. They kinda gave up on lost world

That is probably because Lost World.....is a Lost Cause.