Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, ShadowSJG said:

Ok,  the story of lost world is bad right? So does that mean silly isn't the right way either?

I think implementation of tone, rather than tone itself, is the problem.

A big problem with Sonic's "funny" games is that they're frequently... not. I mean, Eggman and the robots are usually great, but the heroes tend to come off as obnoxious rather than endearing. In fact, I'd go as far as to say Forces is way funnier than Lost World is - though certainly not on purpose.

I think any tone can work but it all comes down to how well they execute it. Sonic Team has tried just about everything on the spectrum, and it's almost always bad.

 

[Flyinpenguin117]

1 minute ago, ShadowSJG said:

Ok,  the story of lost world is bad right? So does that mean silly isn't the right way either?

You're arguing general tone, which wasn't Forces' problem. Forces never really came across as overly tryhard or edgy like 06 or Shadow, and even its cheesier moments weren't as bad as Lost World or Colors. I think it was a good tone, it just tried so much and accomplished so little that everything felt flat and uninteresting, and basically everything made you think "That's it?"

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, Flyinpenguin117 said:

You're arguing general tone, which wasn't Forces' problem. Forces never really came across as overly tryhard or edgy like 06 or Shadow, and even its cheesier moments weren't as bad as Lost World or Colors. I think it was a good tone, it just tried so much and accomplished so little that everything felt flat and uninteresting, and basically everything made you think "That's it?"

Ehh... Respectfully, I think Forces suffered from some major tonal dissonance.

To use just one of many examples, we're told that Eggman spent six months torturing Sonic, which is supposed to be this really grim, serious, awful thing. I mean, torture is kind of a big deal. ...Then he escapes and is the same wisecracking jokester as always, without even a hint of having spent the past six months in remote discomfort, let alone torture.

[Flyinpenguin117]

Just now, Super Mechanio said:

Ehh... Respectfully, I think Forces suffered from some major tonal dissonance.

To use just one of many examples, we're told that Eggman spent six months torturing Sonic, which is supposed to be this really grim, serious, awful thing. I mean, torture is kind of a big deal. ...Then he escapes and is the same wisecracking jokester as always, without even a hint of having spent the past six months in remote discomfort, let alone torture.

Good point. Part of me can't believe I forgot that in my earlier post, though with how handwaved it was, I'm also not surprised.

[GentlemanX]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

I mean it doesn't really make sense because the idea of replaying stages in the Classic games is entirely optional as opposed to Heroes where it is required. The different characters just being "difficulty" modes basically instead of being given their own level details or stuff.

Knuckles has entirely separate cut scenes and bosses in Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic Mania. It's not required to get the Super Sonic ending, but if you want to see everything you're expected to play the game essentially a second time, just with a slightly different move set. And don't get me wrong, I realize a lot of people like it that way, but that's never been enough incentive for me to actually do that. Additional story content or whole other gameplay options and the like shouldn't be synonymous with "hard mode". Make the separate campaigns optional though? I think that makes a lot of sense.

[RedFox99]

30 minutes ago, Flyinpenguin117 said:

Okay, I feel like this needs a separate point. A metric for writers I've learned is, when you look at your story, take a look at each character and imagine how the story would change if that character weren't present. Apply this to Forces and you see how bloated it feels. How would the story change if Amy were gone? It wouldn't. If Silver were gone? It wouldn't. The Chaotix? Nada. You can make points that some characters make some sort of discovery or something that advances the plot, but this usually feels forced and isn't handled well (ex: Rouge doing something with Eggman's archives and the Phantom Ruby? idk, cause I think Classic Sonic handled it anyways). Even Tails felt unnecessary. Basically anyone but Sonic himself and the Avatar were just irrelevant. And this all basically stems from....

That is one of the most biggest issues when it comes to Sonic's friends in terms of the story. They felt well... a bit unneeded most of the time and didn't leave an impact with their personalities. 

[StaticMania]

They're personalities were muted...because it was all serious business.

[ShadowSJG]

story is too short, how long is mario odyssey story?

2 hours ago, Super Mechanio said:

I think implementation of tone, rather than tone itself, is the problem.

A big problem with Sonic's "funny" games is that they're frequently... not. I mean, Eggman and the robots are usually great, but the heroes tend to come off as obnoxious rather than endearing. In fact, I'd go as far as to say Forces is way funnier than Lost World is - though certainly not on purpose.

I think any tone can work but it all comes down to how well they execute it. Sonic Team has tried just about everything on the spectrum, and it's almost always bad.

 

They tried silly with lost world and colors right?

[Dr. Mechano]

8 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

story is too short, how long is mario odyssey story?

They tried silly with lost world and colors right?

And Unleashed. And Heroes, for the most part? Oh, and especially the Riders games. All with varying degrees of success.

I think humor and Sonic can and should go well together, but the games have struggled to make good humor with this series.

Odyssey's main story is decently long, but nothing too lengthy. Its postgame, on the other hand, is gigantic.

[dbzfan7]

9 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

And Unleashed. And Heroes, for the most part? Oh, and especially the Riders games. All with varying degrees of success.

I think humor and Sonic can and should go well together, but the games have struggled to make good humor with this series.

Indeed which is why I've grown to hate sitcom Sonic probably more than any other version. I mean Sonic has been stale and lifeless, but for some reason that doesn't bother me as much as someone I want to smash their face in by slamming a door on them constantly to shut up. I usually go by there's nothing worse than boring.....but I guess for me the right annoyance makes me rescind that point.

I like a Sonic that jokes around, but not one that loves the smell of his own farts so much he practically treats them like a gift from a self proclaimed god he'd probably attribute himself as. Especially when Eggman typically can be much funnier than Sonic ever could and somehow the story expects me to side with the unfunny Sonic.

Sonic as quick as he is, works with one liners, and jokes that are hard hitting and fast. Not something to be dwelled on nor him doing another comedy routine. Probably why Colors Sonic pisses me off most of all.

[Shadowlax]

When would it be an appropriate time to make forces related threads on the other side, I have a general question to ask, that is a looming issue with the series, that I feel like has culminated in this game?

[darkfist_flames]

7 minutes ago, Super Mechanio said:

And Unleashed. And Heroes, for the most part? Oh, and especially the Riders games. All with varying degrees of success.

I think humor and Sonic can and should go well together, but the games have struggled to make good humor with this series.

Odyssey's main story is decently long, but nothing too lengthy. Its postgame, on the other hand, is gigantic.

The thing  with the  humor is that they are trying to make sonic funny while at the same time make him look cool, which so far doesn't seem to work well, i recently saw ClementJ64 lets play of lost world, and mentioned why a specific sonic cutscene is funny

 

[StaticMania]

Sonic's jokes don't even last that long...like I get wanting Sonic to quit flapping and get to action, but it seems like after Colors he can't really make any kind of joke.

It also seems like people would prefer the joke not to come from Sonic intentionally making one and instead just the dialogue naturally being funny.

[TheOcelot]

Edit: nevermind, I'll post my thoughts in the Impressions thread instead.

[MysteriousGirl 92]

I really wanted Sonic Forces (the game) to be good, but I had a feeling it would turn out bad. And sadly enough, I was right. Even Shadow's DLC story disappointed me.

And the worst part? This game made me want to give up on the Sonic game franchise. :-(

[DabigRG]

13 hours ago, Super Mechanio said:

And Unleashed. And Heroes, for the most part? Oh, and especially the Riders games. All with varying degrees of success.

I think humor and Sonic can and should go well together, but the games have struggled to make good humor with this series.

Odyssey's main story is decently long, but nothing too lengthy. Its postgame, on the other hand, is gigantic.

I wouldn't say Unleashed is necessarily silly. The plot itself as mostly serious, what with Dark Gaia being a gigantic spirit out to exterminate all life ala Alduin. It's mainly Chip(pre-getting his memories back) and SA-55 who were where the more comical moments came in and that was mainly a side thing in the former's case.

[Dr. Mechano]

52 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 The plot itself as mostly serious, what with Dark Gaia being a gigantic spirit out to exterminate all life ala Alduin.

I mean, sure, but that's the premise. Most Sonic games have serious premises; A madman taking over the world with an army of robots is a serious premise, and that's the plot of nearly every game. Execution is what determines tone, not the premise itself.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

In terms of the story, I do feel there's a reason why Metal Sonic ended up being an illusion as opposed to the real deal. Obviously, I would've loved to see the real Metal here, along with the real versions of the other characters, but in terms of the story, not only does the Phantom Ruby likely boost the power of the illusions beyond their standard power which is already granted to them, but it's fifty times easier to time attacks and dog pile enemies if you can control your allies at once. In the opening cutscene, you see Infinite, Shadow, Chaos, Zavok and Metal all expertly dogpile and kick Sonic around with perfect timing. You probably wouldn't be able to do that for example if it was the real Metal.

[dbzfan7]

And Roger has outdone himself XD

 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

So is there a full version of Infinite's theme or what?

[Dr. Detective]

Work today went by super quick.

I basically spent the whole time re-editing Forces' story in my head. 

[Ultimate Victory 64]

Just got done finishing this game and honestly I was pretty disappointed. I don't get it, it caters to the era of Sonic I grew up on. Serious story, edgy and cheesy vocal songs, levels mostly having guitars in the music, and playing with characters other than Sonic (for the most part I guess). However this game is so damn mediocre its not even funny. The story is rather disappointing. For a story which selling point is that Dr Eggman has finally taken over the world, it really feels so lukewarm. I mean none of these level aesthetics feel Eggman has taken over. Oh, its Green Hill but with sand or its Chemical Plant but with snow. None of this screams Eggman has won. This doesn't compare to the moments where Eggman blew up half the moon or when he split the Earth (or Mobius I don't know) into pieces and built Eggmanland in its ruins. In fact why didn't he build Eggmanland again? In this situation where he is unstoppable in this "war" whats stopping him from making Eggmanland again? While its nice to see the other gang being more involved it would been more effective if you made some of them playable in the game instead of just CLASSIC FUCKING SONIC again. He serves no purpose in this game. Like at all. Tails is such a pussy in this story. Such character derailment. Infinite is so cool but he is so dumb.The saving grace of him is his voice actor (which is the same guy who voiced Gaara just a fun fact there). He is having so much fun playing Infinite and making him be the most edgiest character in the series. But he is just so lackluster. The marketing made him out to be the biggest villain yet but he no more of a threat than say the Deadly Six.

The gameplay is straight up a decrease of what Generations and Unleashed presented. The boost feels so nerfed in control compared to how Generations perfected it. The modern and Avatar levels are shocker very linear. Sure they can be expansive and have alternate paths here and there but the key word is here and there. And you can make the argument that I love Unleashed but its levels are linear but counterargument is that Unleashed levels got bigger with every level you went to. The last level isn't the same as the first level in design. Also those levels didn't take a minute or two to beat. Also none of levels ended in 2D. Also they were fun. But Forces just flip flops in its level design its almost like amateurs did the level design. The two levels where its fully 3D and have so many alternate paths last almost a minute. Like what the hell Sonic Team? The Classic Sonic gameplay is........I wanna go back and play Mania again because these are so bland. What the hell is with all the speed boosters? Does physics and momentum not exist to you? Why did you bring him back to this? The positives I can say is that I love the spectacle surrounding the levels. Also this is so damn beautiful in some cases. Also besides being automated garbage the Classic level do have alternate path in all of its levels. The expanded 3D levels that I mentioned are great as well and I wished it was like that in the other levels. The QTE were fun as well.

The soundtrack is great.........but. Look I love Tomoyo Othani music, he has composed some of my favorite tracks but there is one, tiny, nitpick I have. WHAT THE HELL IS WITH THE SYNTHESIZERS? They're not bad I can get used to them (I generally think they are great in their retrospective) but they can get eargrating at times and they almost sound the same in some instances. I love the Avatars music. Call me bias but im a sucker for when Sonic implements vocals in their songs. The Avatar songs are almost JPOP in some instances but they are joy to listen to. I like the classic song as it implemented here as a callback to the genesis and there are tracks I will listen to for days. With that being said CLASSIC GREEN HILL IS THE MOST ANNOYING SONG I HAVE EVER HEARD IN A SONIC GAME BAR NONE. The first time I heard it I got an instant headache. The main song, Fist Bump is glorious in every way. Infinite theme while edgy is great as well. I adore the orchestral songs that they put here. Wouldn't expect anything less from the same orchestra team that did the Star Wars music.

The bosses are just basic shit (kinda like this whole game). The final boss while having the most badass final boss song in the series in a while is just.........you know what I want you to look at the boss fight and look at how those 4 years of development this game supposedly had went through. One word "lazy". The most anticlimactic final boss I've ever played in the series. Mania had better final boss than this. Overall man what a disappointment. Again 4 years of development went into this game. Where is the passion this? Unleashed had more passion than this. Was this rushed? Did people leave during development? What the hell happened? If you are going to buy this game (which you're probably not) just wait for price drop.

[PKGaming]

Hey, I noticed that in some footage of Forces, when playing as Sonic, he still drops his rings after getting hurt and can pick them back up. I thought in this game you could no longer pick up rings anymore and that was a special feature for the Hedgehog Avatar. Did they add that ability for Sonic in the day 1 patch? Isn't the Hedgehog Avatar's ability kinda useless now?

[Razule]

1 minute ago, PKGaming said:

Hey, I noticed that in some footage of Forces, when playing as Sonic, he still drops his rings after getting hurt and can pick them back up. I thought in this game you could no longer pick up rings anymore and that was a special feature for the Hedgehog Avatar. Did they add that ability for Sonic in the day 1 patch? Isn't the Hedgehog Avatar's ability kinda useless now?

Yes, the Hedgehog's ability is now that the rings last longer after being hit.

Ugh, the crab legs part of Avatar's Green Hill is annoying. It's not the platforming is difficult, but immediately after landing from a jump, the Avatar suddenly has a burst of speed so I just keep running off the platform.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

In the opening cutscene, you see Infinite, Shadow, Chaos, and Metal all expertly dogpile and kick Sonic around with perfect timing. 

Fixed.