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Whispering Ultima

Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

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15 minutes ago, RLS Legacy said:

I'd just like to point out that since Forces retroactively confirms Mania was a product of the Phantom Ruby...

Sonic being good again was all an illusion.

Of course it was.

Considering it teleported Classic to another dimension, I think it's safe to say the game is mostly real, but it sent them from place to place. The Hardboiled Heavies are powered by the Phantom Ruby like Infinite.

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40 minutes ago, Razule said:

Considering it teleported Classic to another dimension, I think it's safe to say the game is mostly real, but it sent them from place to place. The Hardboiled Heavies are powered by the Phantom Ruby like Infinite.

Did it actually send Classic to the Modern dimension, or did it just project an illusion of him there? Considering he gets "sent back" automatically once all the rubies are destroyed, it kinda feels like he may have not actually physically been there.

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2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Did it actually send Classic to the Modern dimension, or did it just project an illusion of him there? Considering he gets "sent back" automatically once all the rubies are destroyed, it kinda feels like he may have not actually physically been there.

Oh my goodness, you're right! He even sparkles like the fakes do when he first appears--after Tails shouts out for him to help him.

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5 hours ago, Super Mechanio said:

I mean, sure, but that's the premise. Most Sonic games have serious premises; A madman taking over the world with an army of robots is a serious premise, and that's the plot of nearly every game. Execution is what determines tone, not the premise itself.

Are you against darker stories.

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5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Did it actually send Classic to the Modern dimension, or did it just project an illusion of him there? Considering he gets "sent back" automatically once all the rubies are destroyed, it kinda feels like he may have not actually physically been there.

If they say he was sent there from another dimension and that destroying the Ruby would send it back, I think it's safe to assume that's what happened. Eapecially since he came out of a portal.

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9 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oh my goodness, you're right! He even sparkles like the fakes do when he first appears--after Tails shouts out for him to help him.

*MIND....BLOWN!!!!*

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3 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

Are you against darker stories.

I'm against bad stories.

They can be dark, lighthearted, or even a nice healthy mix of both. Any tone can be good or bad depending on how it's executed, and Sonic Team has repeatedly bungled storytelling across the board.

I reject the notion that "dark = better or more worthy of investment" though. And I think that if a story is too dark and doesn't properly endear us to its world or characters, then it runs the risk of people simply not caring what happens. Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy is a very real thing.

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27 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oh my goodness, you're right! He even sparkles like the fakes do when he first appears--after Tails shouts out for him to help him.

He still.. literally comes out of a portal.

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Ain't no rule says an illusion can't come out of a portal.

And considering Classic was probably already in Forces before Mania existed, there must have been, at some point, some explanation for his appearance that didn't involve a prequel explaining it. Tails' call for help essentially summoning an illusory Sonic would've made as much sense as anything else in Forces.

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I'm amazed at how upset I am over a game I don't even think is Bad.

I'm playing it right now. It's fine. It's alright. It's whatever.

I'm just so disappointed. They had all the ingredients for something truly special and they couldn't deliver. Not even when it came to the story, the thing I was most excited about. The story starts off with weird pacing but then gets into a really good groove until it decides to just stop and reduce everything to fucking text boxes, something 06 and Rise of Lyric didn't even do. Then it suddenly decides to have an epic climax that I would have loved unconditionally had I not been distracted by the fact that the game took so many noticeable shortcuts to reach it.

That song that plays during the Avatar's final stage is probably my favorite track in the game. It gives off such a climactic, sad feeling in me that I can't listen to without feeling actual sadness now. I couldn't even fully enjoy the final boss because of all the bullshit with the badly telegraphed attacks and the fact that it's final phase was yet another rehash of the Colors fight.

I'd probably feel a lot better if I actually DID hate the fucking game. At least then I could sit comfortably in that opinion instead of wallow in sadness that all the good shit I liked is surrounded by so much mediocrity. 

I can't do this song and dance anymore. I'm exhausted. All the arguing leading up to this point so wasn't worth it. It never is but now more than ever, it feels entirely pointless even talking about it.

 

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I'm going to have to disagree with Classic Sonic being an illusion the fact of the matter is that going off this line here "Oh! You're that Sonic from another dimension, aren't you!" that line says that Tails recognizes this Sonic as the one he met previously and Classic Sonic does nod in confirmation. Sonic uses the "I haven't seen you in Generations." line as not just simply a reference, but practically saying the same thing.

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1 minute ago, SonicLegends said:

I'm going to have to disagree with Classic Sonic being an illusion the fact of the matter is that going off this line here "Oh! You're that Sonic from another dimension, aren't you!" that line says that Tails recognizes this Sonic as the one he met previously and Classic Sonic does nod in confirmation. Sonic uses the "I haven't seen you in Generations." line as not just simply a reference, but practically saying the same thing.

So...just like how Sonic recognizes all the illusion villains just before he gets his ass kicked.

An illusory Classic Sonic would be recognized as Classic Sonic just the same as an illusory Shadow is recognized as Shadow, illusory Chaos as Chaos, etc.

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3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

So...just like how Sonic recognizes all the illusion villains just before he gets his ass kicked.

An illusory Classic Sonic would be recognized as Classic Sonic just the same as an illusory Shadow is recognized as Shadow, illusory Chaos as Chaos, etc.

There is one important detail you're missing though, it's the fact that Classic Sonic doesn't have the same glitch effect that the other illusions do as their defeated in the case of Zavok or their power source is gone when defeating the Death Egg Robot. Classic Sonic only shows the glitch effect as he comes out of the portal meaning it was just there if anything as a after effect of coming out of it.

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That's just because him leaving is supposed to be an emotional moment that would be dulled if there were a bunch of grimy looking glitch effects overlaid on him.

If he's physically there, what sense does it make for him fade back to his dimension just because the rubies are destroyed? If he was physically transported to the Modern dimension it should take some equal force to transport him back. If he's just an illusion sustained by the ruby then it's natural he'd fade away once it was gone.

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1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

That's just because him leaving is supposed to be an emotional moment that would be dulled if there were a bunch of grimy looking glitch effects overlaid on him.

If he's physically there, what sense does it make for him fade back to his dimension just because the rubies are destroyed? If he was physically transported to the Modern dimension it should take some equal force to transport him back. If he's just an illusion sustained by the ruby then it's natural he'd fade away once it was gone.

So how is Infinite not able to control him? Not to mention the Japanese forces site regards him as Gens Classic Sonic. 

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5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's just because him leaving is supposed to be an emotional moment that would be dulled if there were a bunch of grimy looking glitch effects overlaid on him.

If he's physically there, what sense does it make for him fade back to his dimension just because the rubies are destroyed? If he was physically transported to the Modern dimension it should take some equal force to transport him back. If he's just an illusion sustained by the ruby then it's natural he'd fade away once it was gone.

Because the game says he does. That's it, that's what we're supposed to believe. What would be the point of Sonic going through a portal in Mania if not him going to Forces?

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5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's just because him leaving is supposed to be an emotional moment that would be dulled if there were a bunch of grimy looking glitch effects overlaid on him.

If he's physically there, what sense does it make for him fade back to his dimension just because the rubies are destroyed? If he was physically transported to the Modern dimension it should take some equal force to transport him back. If he's just an illusion sustained by the ruby then it's natural he'd fade away once it was gone.

If he was a illusion like the rest of others he would have disappeared at the exact same time as the rest of them, but there was a timing difference as we even notice that the sky is is dark for them, but for Classic Sonic the sky is bright. Also KHCast said there's no reason why he couldn't have been controlled or the at very least immobilized or heck it would have happened when it was Death Egg Robot vs Classic Sonic.

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Well I caved and watched all the cutscenes, since I probably won't buy a Switch until sometime next year. Its all still fresh in my mind, so I'll need some time to let things set in.

My first impressions story-wise:

-It wasn't as bad as some people are saying, it was a fair attempt to go back to the Adventure-era without calling it Adventure 3. Some of the jokes were cringy ("Eggman has 4 TB of selfies!"... *groan*) and a lot of details like how Eggman conquered the world would've helped make the grim and serious tone more earned.

-I liked the character interactions; seriously its been too long with just Boom's bad-sitcom setting being the only source for new content. The VA's sound quite good here; really liked Knuckles' return to form as a more down-to-earth tough guy with brains. I was surprised at how much I liked Shadow's voice, which is unexpected since I haven't cared much for Shadow since SA2.

-Eggman was actually... not very interesting... or funny, which is pretty weird. You'd think a game centered around him having conquered most of the world would be chalk-full of him admiring his newly-formed Empire, covering the planet in Egg-propaganda, or maybe playing anti-Resistance movement speeches; similar to when he taunted the world in SA2. But no, he just sort of lurks in the background doing... stuff. (I was relieved Orbot and Cubot were barely in it though, I can't stand them.)

-Why bring the Death Egg into the story if you're not going to use it for anything? (The Star Wars homages was a nice touch.)

-The reveal that all the boss characters were illusions was a HUGE letdown. Seriously you bring back CHAOS after all this time, and don't do anything substantial with that? HUGE waste...

-Infinite was pretty meh, all edgy talk with nothing to really back it up.

-I don't get what happened at the end; we are told the war's won, but we don't see what happened to Eggman or Infinite. Did they go into the Phantom Ruby dimension?

-I'm not a big fan of this soft-rebooted universe where there's no humans besides Eggman. I liked the added layers of the government and G.U.N. being around. Are Gerald and Maria even considered canon still?

Forces was definitely not as chalk-full of bad jokes as Colors, or had as bad of writing as Lost World. A pretty fair attempt.

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5 minutes ago, Razule said:

Because the game says he does. That's it, that's what we're supposed to believe. What would be the point of Sonic going through a portal in Mania if not him going to Forces?

I guess mayb all of Mania apparently was a illusion? But that undermines any point of its existence since it's not real, so what's the point of it. We see the perspective of a illusion Sonic and co, in a illusion world, fighting a illusion eggman, for a illusion phantom ruby, and somehow the illusion shows up in modern Sonic's world. If that's the case anyway and Mania isn't real. 

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6 minutes ago, KHCast said:

So how is Infinite not able to control him? Not to mention the Japanese forces site regards him as Gens Classic Sonic. 

Didn't Eggman and Tails say something to the effect of the respective Ruby's can only be affected by the ones who triggered it?

 

Plus, does Classic Sonic ever really come into contact with Infinite to begin with?

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Just now, KHCast said:

So how is Infinite not able to control him?

Because he wasn't created by Infinite, he was projected into the Modern dimension as a result of Mania's true ending. Like, he inadvertently created an illusion of himself by bodyslamming the ruby as Super Sonic or something. Same way the Avatar's able to use their ruby to counter Infinite's illusions.

Just now, KHCast said:

Not to mention the Japanese forces site regards him as Gens Classic Sonic. 

Well yes, Mania Sonic, who is Gens Classic Sonic, is projecting his will into an illusory version of himself.

Just now, SonicLegends said:

If he was a illusion like the rest of others he would have disappeared at the exact same time as the rest of them, but there was a timing difference as we even notice that the sky is is dark for them, but for Classic Sonic the sky is bright.

That's a bit of a plothole either way, though. If destroying the ruby is what sends him back, it should've happened when the ruby was destroyed, not hours later.

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