Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[KHCast]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Didn't Eggman and Tails say something to the effect of the respective Ruby's can only be affected by the ones who triggered it?

 

Plus, does Classic Sonic ever really come into contact with Infinite to begin with?

So who created the illusion classic sonic then?

@Diogenes so it's semantics then we're arguing? Cause we're saying this is classic sonic, you're saying it's classic sonic projecting himself . End of the day, it's classic sonic whether he's there physically or not 

[dbzfan7]

In my head canon Classic Sonic just wanted to get the hell out of that world, and back to his world.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, KHCast said:

 

@Diogenes so it's semantics then we're arguing? Cause we're saying this is classic sonic, you're saying it's classic sonic projecting himself . End of the day, it's classic sonic whether he's there physically or not 

That was the point of the discussion, yes, but I wouldn't call it semantics; it's about how the ruby functions and the truth of the literal events of the game.

[SonicLegends]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's a bit of a plothole either way, though. If destroying the ruby is what sends him back, it should've happened when the ruby was destroyed, not hours later.

That's exactly my point. He should have followed the same exact way as the other illusions did with the glitch effect and had happened at the exact time as the rest of them if he was created from the Phantom Ruby. I really don't see "That's just because him leaving is supposed to be an emotional moment that would be dulled if there were a bunch of grimy looking glitch effects overlaid on him." as a good enough reason of trying to justify him as being an illusion. He does not follow the same logic that the other illusions do therefore he should not be chalked up as one.

[Tyranno]

In the end, I've figured out why Infinite works for me.

He's basically a very similar character to Scourge.

Look at how he acts. The guy's only calm and collected when he thinks he has control over things, and 90 % of his dialogue is talking about how much everyone else is inferior to him and afraid of him - effectively he's projecting his own issues with himself onto other people. His past incarnations in Episode Shadow and the comic are louder and more insecure because he's not in control of anything. He's obsessed with proving himself better than everything else around him and reinventing himself after every weakness and then when he gets what he thinks he wants he leans into it hardcore and starts playing like he's hot shit until the cracks start showing again.

His overdramatic need to reinvent himself in response to coming up short reminds me a lot of Scourge and why I thought he worked as a villain, as he's defined by his "inferiority superiority complex" - in the end, he's an all powerful loser shooting above his pay grade.

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, SonicLegends said:

That's exactly my point. He should have followed the same exact way as the other illusions did with the glitch effect and had happened at the exact time as the rest of them if he was created from the Phantom Ruby. I really don't see "That's just because him leaving is supposed to be an emotional moment that would be dulled if there were a bunch of grimy looking glitch effects overlaid on him." as a good enough reason of trying to justify him as being an illusion. He does not follow the same logic that the other illusions do therefore he should not be chalked up as one.

If destroying the rubies sends him back, which it does, why does it take hours for it to happen? Whether he's an illusion or physically there I see no other explanation beyond dramatic effect and the perks of being a protagonist.

And I'm still looking for an explanation for why destroying the rubies would send a physical hedgehog back across dimensions.

[Razule]

Just now, Diogenes said:

 

And I'm still looking for an explanation for why destroying the rubies would send a physical hedgehog back across dimensions.

If it was able to travel dimensions from Mania to Forces, I think it could take Sonic. It still doesn't make sense how it does this, but it still traveled dimensions.

Unless the one in Mania was an illusion. Or maybe Mania and the Classic games didn't happen at all and they're all illusions

[KHCast]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

If destroying the rubies sends him back, which it does, why does it take hours for it to happen? Whether he's an illusion or physically there I see no other explanation beyond dramatic effect and the perks of being a protagonist.

And I'm still looking for an explanation for why destroying the rubies would send a physical hedgehog back across dimensions.

It's probably the same explanation why classic sonic in Gens doesn't automatically go back to his own time after time is restored along with the stages and classic metal sonic.

Just now, Razule said:

If it was able to travel dimensions from Mania to Forces, I think it could take Sonic. It still doesn't make sense how it does this, but it still traveled dimensions.

Unless the one in Mania was an illusion. Or maybe Mania and the Classic games didn't happen at all and they're all illusions

I thought the Mania one was a prototype 

[Razule]

1 minute ago, KHCast said:

It's probably the same explanation why classic sonic in Gens doesn't automatically go back to his own time after time is restored along with the stages and classic metal sonic.

But.. he does. At the end of the game.

[KHCast]

Just now, Razule said:

But.. he does. At the end of the game.

Not immediately after time eater is defeated 

[Tyranno]

It's standard cartoon logic. "Destroy the thing making the thing happen and its effects will reverse itself".

It's the same reason why draining the life force out of the planet gets reversed in Lost World after you destroy the machine doing it, even though there's no reason why it should be transferred back to the things it was taken from. The specific trope is No Ontological Inertia.

It's just a storytelling convenience.

[Razule]

2 minutes ago, KHCast said:

I thought the Mania one was a prototype

So did I, but Christ, we don't even know which Eggman had the Ruby first at this point, where the Ruby came from, where the prototypes came from, or why Eggman and Infinite had to find and destroy them.

[SonicLegends]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If destroying the rubies sends him back, which it does, why does it take hours for it to happen? Whether he's an illusion or physically there I see no other explanation beyond dramatic effect and the perks of being a protagonist.

And I'm still looking for an explanation for why destroying the rubies would send a physical hedgehog back across dimensions.

Because destroying the power source that brought him there in the first place and then getting rid of/deactivating it then took time to get back to normal. A ripple effect if you will I suppose you could say.

"The Phantom Ruby's exact powers are based on virtual reality control, although it is capable of warping the fabric of space-time by emitting a wave of energy that temporarily distorts the surroundings. This power allows the gem to warp targets across space and seemingly influence gravity. The ruby’s power can also be harnessed to create energy constructs and open portals in space-time."

[Razule]

2 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Not immediately after time eater is defeated 

It is soon after though, like in Forces.

[KHCast]

Just now, Razule said:

It is soon after though, like in Forces.

Yeah that's the point I'm making. Dio is asking why Mania sonic took so long to return home, and I'm saying it's just as confusing as what happened in gens

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Razule said:

If it was able to travel dimensions from Mania to Forces, I think it could take Sonic. It still doesn't make sense how it does this, but it still traveled dimensions.

Unless the one in Mania was an illusion. Or maybe Mania and the Classic games didn't happen at all and they're all illusions

I'm not asking how Classic got to the Modern dimension, I'm asking how he left it. If he was physically transported to the Modern dimension, what force transports him back, with (and due to) the rubies being destroyed?

Just now, Tyranno said:

It's standard cartoon logic. "Destroy the thing making the thing happen and its effects will reverse itself".

It's the same reason why draining the life force out of the planet gets reversed in Lost World after you destroy the machine doing it, even though there's no reason why it should be transferred back to the things it was taken from.

Tails reversed the machine, so that reversed the effects. That's cartoon logic, but it's sensible cartoon logic. Destroying the thing that transported you somewhere shouldn't un-transport you.

1 minute ago, SonicLegends said:

Because destroying the power source that brought him there in the first place and then getting rid of/deactivating it then took time for time to get back in order. 

Why's it take time for time/dimensions to sort themselves out and on what grounds do we assume that's an actual thing?

[Kuzu]

4 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

And Roger has outdone himself XD

 

I chuckled.

[SonicLegends]

16 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Why's it take time for time/dimensions to sort themselves out and on what grounds do we assume that's an actual thing?

Seeing as how Classic Sonic and Tails had to wait for their ride when they should have gotten it from the very moment Time Eater was defeated I would consider that to be proof of the time line needing to sort things out. 

 

It's really not the first time I've seen it happen, but at the top of my head it would have to be Samurai Jack's ending as time had to catch up with a character at the end.

[Diogenes]

Alright, here's a question then: portals. Gens ended with the Classics returning to their time through a portal, that supposedly being spacetime's way of fixing itself. Razule argued that Classic Sonic appearing from a portal in Forces indicated that he was the same physical Sonic as the one in Mania, that the means of physically travelling between dimensions used a portal. So why no portal at the end of Forces? Why just fading away, rather than a portal like Gens' spacetime fix or Forces' own supposed dimension jump?

[GentlemanX]

You could argue that Classic Sonic is there because of the power of the Phantom Ruby, and once it's gone it's magic slowly fades until there's nothing left keeping Classic Sonic in Modern's dimension. It's confusing, because there's no logic behind the time Classic Sonic arrives in Mania. Both Classic and the Phantom Ruby leave Mania at the same time, but the Phantom Ruby then shows up on Eggman's doorstop in Rise of Infinite. After that, Eggman tests in Stress Test, Shadow invades and he uses it on Infinite, he begins conquering the world with it and captures Sonic, we have six months where Sonic is imprisoned, and then Classic pops out when Tails is working on Omega. Unless Classic is on some crazy adventure we don't know about in Null Space, it's crazy that he shows up so much later than the Phantom Ruby does.

I think the game intends for Classic to physically be in Modern's dimension, otherwise the end of Mania would have been different. Does it make 100% sense the way it plays out? Absolutely not, but of all the plot holes with Forces' plot, that's pretty low on my list of questions (seriously, who fixed Omega? besides DK). And again, I like Forces' plot for the most part - this is a lot closer to the kinds of stories I'd prefer Sonic to have. But that doesn't mean I won't call it out on the few things I think are dumb. Most of the plot things surrounding Classic Sonic in this game are dumb, but it's a harmless dumb that doesn't hurt everything else.

[KHCast]

So if classic is projecting himself as a illusion, where would his physical body be then? Still where we last saw him at the end of Mania?

47 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

You could argue that Classic Sonic is there because of the power of the Phantom Ruby, and once it's gone it's magic slowly fades until there's nothing left keeping Classic Sonic in Modern's dimension. It's confusing, because there's no logic behind the time Classic Sonic arrives in Mania. Both Classic and the Phantom Ruby leave Mania at the same time, but the Phantom Ruby then shows up on Eggman's doorstop in Rise of Infinite. After that, Eggman tests in Stress Test, Shadow invades and he uses it on Infinite, he begins conquering the world with it and captures Sonic, we have six months where Sonic is imprisoned, and then Classic pops out when Tails is working on Omega. Unless Classic is on some crazy adventure we don't know about in Null Space, it's crazy that he shows up so much later than the Phantom Ruby does.

I think the game intends for Classic to physically be in Modern's dimension, otherwise the end of Mania would have been different. Does it make 100% sense the way it plays out? Absolutely not, but of all the plot holes with Forces' plot, that's pretty low on my list of questions (seriously, who fixed Omega? besides DK). And again, I like Forces' plot for the most part - this is a lot closer to the kinds of stories I'd prefer Sonic to have. But that doesn't mean I won't call it out on the few things I think are dumb. Most of the plot things surrounding Classic Sonic in this game are dumb, but it's a harmless dumb that doesn't hurt everything else.

Do we know for sure if Mania happens before Rise of Infinite? Cause six months and then conveniently Classic pops out of nowhere after the ruby seems off. Eggman made prototypes, so the more likely scenario is one of them was sent to mania's dimension. Maybe. Idk could've been the real thing 

[Razule]

20 minutes ago, KHCast said:

So if classic is projecting himself as a illusion, where would his physical body be then? Still where we last saw him at the end of Mania?

Do we know for sure if Mania happens before Rise of Infinite? Cause six months and then conveniently Classic pops out of nowhere after the ruby seems off. Eggman made prototypes, so the more likely scenario is one of them was sent to mania's dimension. Maybe. Idk could've been the real thing 

Yeah, but.. how did the prototypes go different places at all?

[Razule]

So in the Shadow DLC.. City was already destroyed months before the events of Forces? Before Sonic was captured?

[SpongicX]

Did Eggman freaking die in Sonic Forces?! Every Sonic game usually ends with Eggman being defeated yet shows he survived, or managed to escape, yet Sonic Forces did not end that way. We see Eggman’s death egg robot blow up in a less cartoony way than usual. The explosion was bigger and more firey than most Eggman explosions. We don’t even see him flee, fly off, or make a sound. That’s the last we see of him in the game, not even a mention on whether he’ll be back.

It’s so strange for a Sonic game to not acknowledge what happened to Eggman, the plot in this game is so rushed, so it’s hard to tell if Eggman was killed off, or if the programmers were too lazy to bother showing what happened to him.

[DiamondX]

2 minutes ago, SpongicX said:

Did Eggman freaking die in Sonic Forces?! Every Sonic game usually ends with Eggman being defeated yet shows he survived, or managed to escape, yet Sonic Forces did not end that way. We see Eggman’s death egg robot blow up in a less cartoony way than usual. The explosion was bigger and more firey than most Eggman explosions. We don’t even see him flee, fly off, or make a sound. That’s the last we see of him in the game, not even a mention on whether he’ll be back.

It’s so strange for a Sonic game to not acknowledge what happened to Eggman, the plot in this game is so rushed, so it’s hard to tell if Eggman was killed off, or if the programmers were too lazy to bother showing what happened to him.

At the end of Generations he was trapped in the White Space.

He'll return some way or another.