Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Technically speaking you can write wherever story you want. But similar to cap being a nazi in the recent secret empire arc, just because you can write a story, doesn't mean you should. And guess how that story ended " Oh it wasn't the real captain america, it was a fake" because they wrote themselves in a corner, because you can't write a character going against their entire character arc literally for the sake of shock and awe ( and butchering some admittedly good ideas as a narrative criticizing the united states right now ) . Technically you can write whatever story you want, doesn't mean its not gonna be shitty. Maybe you shouldn't write stories that go back on character motivations for the sake of shock.  Because those ends shitty, it either ends with pissed off fans, or pissed of people who expected something and got the obvious " it wasn't the real character, he was mind controlled " nothing that people expect. At least usually you get a fight out of that, they didn't even fight. 

That sounds pretty cool, I thought about something like that. The game instead of having the custom hero, it was just sonic and shadow and infinite regularly having levels that would glitch into old levels. Like imagine you were playing casino forest, and then that shit literally turned into white jungle. 

The only way to make this work is a cop out. Its like a fighting game crossoever story, no one really looses because you can't have either company look bad, only the bad guys loose. Because this cop out concession you have to make

Sonic team having an editor

PFFFT

Again. I can't really agree. In the first paragraph, I'm not exactly sure what your point really even is to be honest. It doesn't seem like it's referring to Forces at all. Cap being a Nazi is a literal more specific than just the idea of these four villains being around for this game. The task the writer has is to explain why they're there and what their end goal is and the follow-through they had in mind was to just lazily say "They're all fake". Your example is a little confusing to me as well since the idea it proposes is that this character (Captain America) absolutely HAS to be this way in this story rather than what I'm assuming Forces was doing where they just went, "Here's a character, explain how they fit into this story".  And the writers just threw up their hands and sneezed into a napkin before handing it in as their script.

For your second paragraph, I can see that being a more interesting tactic to use. I'd probably stay away from old levels entirely though. Maybe I'd keep the Death Egg but that's about it.

I disagree that the only way to make it work is a cop out obviously. Even if my ideas need more fleshing out or stand a chance at not being accepted by everyone, they still attempted to provide an explanation for their presence. And it was certainly better than just making them all fakes. I'll give myself at least that much credit.

Yes, it's ridiculous to think that they'd have an editor. 

[Balding Spider]

34 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

Nah, I think Steppenwolf is faaaar worse than Infinite. At least Infinite has a backstory of sorts! Wtf is Steppenwolf? I can see some of the other comparisons though.

The whole illusion thing is really stupid btw. If Infinite can create illusions of anything and everything, why the hell didn’t he create illusions of Perfect Chaos, or Iblis, or Dark Gaia or hell even the rest of the Deadly Six besides Zavok?? Imagine how awesome THAT would’ve been! But no...just these four guys. And oh Chaos Zero, we hardly knew ye... D:

.....They forgot.

Okay, the real answer is that they couldn't justify the dumb fucking war story if Eggman had those heavy hitters. You summon those monsters and you have zero resistance forces, and they can't have that in a game called Sonic Forces.

39 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

Nah, I think Steppenwolf is faaaar worse than Infinite. At least Infinite has a backstory of sorts! Wtf is Steppenwolf?

Can't fucking believe they shoved in Darkseid's family member without explaining it to the audience SMGDH

[DabigRG]

On 11/17/2017 at 8:08 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Why on Earth were these cut? They would've added a lot more story to the DLC considering it has Shadow actively question what's going on, ponder if it's truly a trap or not, and have a lot more hints that Infinite is impersonating Rouge and Omega as opposed to just Omega shouting "I'M NOT WEAK" on loop. 

But this drags up something else that pisses me off. It shows that even if the person trapped in the illusion questions if it's real or not, they can be lured into believing it. Which leads to the sheer fact that would've given the perfect reason to have the villains join with Eggman for real. Why? Because the Phantom Ruby has been keeping them trapped in their own retrospective illusions and has been using that to bend them to Eggman's rule. We could've had the Ruby create illusions of Gerald and Maria and have them constantly defend Eggman's actions, convincing Shadow to join him in order to better the world.

Zavok would've been trapped in an illusion where he believed he and the Deadly Six were on top while Eggman played second fiddle to them, meaning that they would've been all too happy to do what they did. Chaos, perhaps could've been freed from the destroyed Master Emerald as established in the Prequel comics (preferably, alongside Tikal), and then perhaps Chaos is neutral to begin with, but ends up getting trapped in an illusion where the heroes begin attacking Chao causing him to go into rage mode while the ruby creates an illusion of Tikal who insists the world must be destroyed to pay for their crimes so to speak, since in Adventure, she's the one who calms Chaos down. 

I mean like, it's not the perfect setups, I'm sure, but fucking hell, it's something and actually gives credible reasons for the villains to work under Eggman until Sonic manages to knock them out of their illusions.

 

On 11/17/2017 at 8:19 PM, Ratcicle King said:

This is why them being illusions bothers me so much.

It's the easy way out. It's a way so the writer can have the enemies, but not the CHARACTERS. They were interested in having a group of enemies, not in having 4 individual villains joining forces.

By making them illusions, not only you don't have to write how and why they're here, but you also don't have to bother with interactions, development, dynamics, nothing.

Why is Shadow working for Eggman? He's an illusion so it doesn't matter

How is Chaos back? He's an illusion so it doesn't matter

How did Eggman convince Zavok to join him? He's an illusion so it doesn't matter

Would Zavok work as a team player, seeing as he's the only one who's been a part of a team before? Doesn't matter, illusions.

What is Shadow's reaction to Chaos? Seeing as he saw the Artificial Chaos in the ARK, and this is one of the basis for his own design, wouldn't he be at least a bit curious? Doesn't matter, illusions.

If Zavok attempted to control Metal Sonic, say, to keep him in Check for Eggman, or because tensions are growing between the team, would it work? Would Metal Sonic not attempt to resist it? Doesn't matter, both are illusions

There's no chemistry between them, there are no dynamics, no one acknowledges them outside of their names, the fun part of a team up is seeing the interactions and these different personalities mixing up.

That's not what they wanted here, they wanted a group of enemies that would fill their purpose and then vanish without any loose treads. And that's exactly what they did, heck, some of them didn't even get that.

 

Most of this, essentially.

21 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I wouldn't necessarily say that. A good writer and a longer game could have done wonders for exploring why they'd be on Eggman's side here. 

Chaos, I'd probably give some sort of mind-control thing that Knuckles has to snap him out of by reminding him that his time as the vengeful monster has passed and Eggman treating him like he still was is wrong. Probably some sentimental stuff you could get out of that.

Shadow's confrontation with Infinite after what happened to Omega and his history with Infinite could lead to a lot of things. He might be pretending to be on his side until he can find a way to take him down and repair Omega. Maybe he's struggling with what he should do because he both can't overpower Infinite and they've got his friend as a hostage, so he's trying to use a stealthy means of sending out an SOS while pretending to be on their side. Perhaps he gets a message to Sonic through a code he passes on after the boss fight with him that they totally, obviously, should have. Or you could just be super lazy and just let it be mind control after he went in to help Omega. 

Zavok's got a huge grudge against both Eggman and Sonic, yet I could also see him willingly going along with him should it have been established that the rest of the Zeti were either captured or the Lost Hex were in danger of imploding because of his actions or something. Might also be useful to have him plotting against Eggman at the same time so that their could be another layer to the tactical warfare going on between the different minds of the villains. Being in a vulnerable spot and trying to find a way to ruin the plans of both your enemies by being a scheming third party is an excellent way to give your previously underdeveloped character so intrigue. Or just use mind control again.

Metal Sonic is Metal Sonic. No explanation required. Perhaps still an interesting story beat of course but motivation isn't an issue.

I'm mostly just spit-balling here but I feel like being presented with a seemingly hard to pull off idea and at least trying to find a way to make it work is a bit more commendable than just making the investment entirely worthless by going "They're all fake".

.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

In a logical situation, the Phantom Ruby not being used to summon heavy hitters like Dark Gaia would be justified due to how big they are and how much power they possess; probably too much to be able to maintain and use effectively, and in general a huge drain on the Phantom Ruby. Hence why the smaller but still powerful Zavok, Chaos, Metal Sonic and Shadow would be chosen.

In Sonic Team logic however, what everyone else already said.

[DabigRG]

I'd just like to note that you should probably avoid posting too many things about Justice League for those of us who hasn't seen it yet.

[Razule]

33 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I'd just like to note that you should probably avoid posting too many things about Justice League for those of us who hasn't seen it yet.

Batman is famous billionaire philanthropist and CEO of Wayne Industries Bruce Wayne and his mother's name is Martha

[Ultimate Victory 64]

9 hours ago, Zippo said:

Sonic Forces is like a game version of Justice League.

Both are bad, middling, poorly told stories in bad products that masquerade themselves as being ambitious, grand epics, yet fail to deliver on any of their promises. Both come out within a week of one another, both are getting savaged by critics and fans alike, and both have incompetent directors in charge that have failed to make good products once again.

Also, Infinite and Steppenwolf are both embarrassingly bad villians.

Coming from a guy that loved Justice League. I feel that is so untrue about the movie. Zack Snyder really did a good job with the movie. Also at least Steppenwolf had motive I still don't know what was the point of Infinite.

[Razule]

I swear I keep thinking Hopes and Dreams is going to start playing at that specific part.

[Shadowlax]

On 11/17/2017 at 8:19 PM, Ratcicle King said:

There's no chemistry between them, there are no dynamics, no one acknowledges them outside of their names, the fun part of a team up is seeing the interactions and these different personalities mixing up.

 

 

There wouldn't be in a chemestry this idea is flawed

Ok so you got 

Shadow 

Chaos 

Metal 

Zavok

Ok So two of the 4 would have to be mind controlled to even be on your hypothetical squad so... they wouldn't be talking. Metal is a fucking robot. No one cares about zavok. There is no chemistry this idea is dumb. Sonic does not have the comic book book rouges gallery to make this work, sonic villian structure is very much shonen in nature. Where the bad guy becomes good, was never really actually evil , is a giant metaphysical concept representing god or satan, or die or some kind of combination of these things.

There is no chemistry , because half the team would need to be mind controlled to be on the team. Because Shadow is such a good guy there is no fucking way you are getting him on the team, and chaos is quite literally a friendly kaiju. Metal sonic is a dumb robot. All you would have left is zavok talking to... himself I guess. 

What chemistry did you want, the chemistry you desire would probably require ruining shadow's chaarcter arc, or ruining the entire point of sonic adventure one. 

On 11/17/2017 at 8:08 PM, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Why on Earth were these cut? They would've added a lot more story to the DLC considering it has Shadow actively question what's going on, ponder if it's truly a trap or not, and have a lot more hints that Infinite is impersonating Rouge and Omega as opposed to just Omega shouting "I'M NOT WEAK" on loop. 

I guess there may have been more levels that didn't make the cut. Dunno. 

Quote

But this drags up something else that pisses me off. It shows that even if the person trapped in the illusion questions if it's real or not, they can be lured into believing it. Which leads to the sheer fact that would've given the perfect reason to have the villains join with Eggman for real.

Eh that doesn't really make sense. That's not how the illusions works. The person isn't under your control, he's just standing there. Or reacting to the illusion. Shadow saw through it eventually so the illusions aren't that powerful. It seems like shadow saw through it a few minutes. So if shadow could do that, and beat an illusion in one strike. How strong do you think the illusions are?

Quote

Why? Because the Phantom Ruby has been keeping them trapped in their own retrospective illusions and has been using that to bend them to Eggman's rule. We could've had the Ruby create illusions of Gerald and Maria and have them constantly defend Eggman's actions, convincing Shadow to join him in order to better the world.

Shadow would have saw through that. Remember, remember the plot to sonic adventure 2 and shadow the hedgehog. Remember when people tried to manipulate his memories before, and he saw through it eventually. Its probably why he saw through it so quickly, he's been through this before. 

Quote

Zavok would've been trapped in an illusion where he believed he and the Deadly Six were on top while Eggman played second fiddle to them, meaning that they would've been all too happy to do what they did.

Maybe

Quote

Chaos, perhaps could've been freed from the destroyed Master Emerald as established in the Prequel comics (preferably, alongside Tikal), and then perhaps Chaos is neutral to begin with, but ends up getting trapped in an illusion where the heroes begin attacking Chao causing him to go into rage mode while the ruby creates an illusion of Tikal who insists the world must be destroyed to pay for their crimes so to speak, since in Adventure, she's the one who calms Chaos down. 

Eggman Nor Infinite know who tikal is. 

Also on the shadow note, infnite doesn't know who Gerald is he also doesn't know who maria is. Also while eggman is evil I would bet you cash eggman wouldn't let him do that, not just because of some sentimental value. Shadow when he got out of your hypothetical illusion scenario would kill all involved and eggman doesn't want any of that. Also the plot doesn't want any of that, because when you have a character willing to murder setting that character off against your antagonist isn't the best idea.

To reference the comics its why GUN vs EGGMAN never happened, eggman was doing some strait evil stuff, that if shadow cough wind of any of that he might actually try to kill the guy. And given how powerful is , might succeed. You can't have someone murdering your main iconic antagonist like that, so gun and team dark just kinda pretended that eggman never existed or were convincingly never around when shit went down. Like if infnite did that he would be like

" OH ok, i'm going to kill you " and then that would be it. 

Quote

I mean like, it's not the perfect setups, I'm sure, but fucking hell, it's something and actually gives credible reasons for the villains to work under Eggman until Sonic manages to knock them out of their illusions.

They aren't really set ups and the illusions don't quite work as you are suggesting

But it could have been more interesting none the less

[Ryannumber1gamer]

24 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

There wouldn't be in a chemestry this idea is flawed

Ok so you got 

Shadow 

Chaos 

Metal 

Zavok

Ok So two of the 4 would have to be mind controlled to even be on your hypothetical squad so... they wouldn't be talking. Metal is a fucking robot. No one cares about zavok. There is no chemistry this idea is dumb. Sonic does not have the comic book book rouges gallery to make this work, sonic villian structure is very much shonen in nature. Where the bad guy becomes good, was never really actually evil , is a giant metaphysical concept representing god or satan, or die or some kind of combination of these things.

There is no chemistry , because half the team would need to be mind controlled to be on the team. Because Shadow is such a good guy there is no fucking way you are getting him on the team, and chaos is quite literally a friendly kaiju. Metal sonic is a dumb robot. All you would have left is zavok talking to... himself I guess. 

What chemistry did you want, the chemistry you desire would probably require ruining shadow's chaarcter arc, or ruining the entire point of sonic adventure one. 

I guess there may have been more levels that didn't make the cut. Dunno. 

Eh that doesn't really make sense. That's not how the illusions works. The person isn't under your control, he's just standing there. Or reacting to the illusion. Shadow saw through it eventually so the illusions aren't that powerful. It seems like shadow saw through it a few minutes. So if shadow could do that, and beat an illusion in one strike. How strong do you think the illusions are?

Shadow would have saw through that. Remember, remember the plot to sonic adventure 2 and shadow the hedgehog. Remember when people tried to manipulate his memories before, and he saw through it eventually. Its probably why he saw through it so quickly, he's been through this before. 

Maybe

Eggman Nor Infinite know who tikal is. 

Also on the shadow note, infnite doesn't know who Gerald is he also doesn't know who maria is. Also while eggman is evil I would bet you cash eggman wouldn't let him do that, not because of some sentimental value. Shadow when he got out of your hypothetical illusion scenario would kill all involved and eggman doesn't want any of that. Also the plot doesn't want any of that, because when you have a character willing to murder setting that character off against your antagonist isn't the best idea

They aren't really set ups and the illusions don't quite work as you are suggesting

But it could have been more interesting none the less

-Shadow begins Virtual Reality accepting the illusion. Despite being confused at first, he fully buys Rouge's story that they were trying to save Omega. On top of that, it's fully implied Infinite can use the illusions to plant false memories since Shadow clearly remembers and states Omega was destroyed in a certain portion of Green Hill despite having no reason to know that.

-Shadow beating an illusion in one strike doesn't have baring on the situation, virtual reality alone shows how powerful Infinite's illusions are when he literally fucks with Shadow's mind, and makes him fully accepting of the illusion. The only reason Shadow broke free was because Infinite was screwing with him and had Rouge fess up to it all being fake.

-Shadow hasn't really had his memories manipulated, SA2 had him misremember Maria's wishes while in Shadow, Black Doom was technically telling the truth, Shadow was a combination of human science and the Dark Arms to create someone to hunt the Chaos Emeralds for Doom. On top of that, I'm pretty sure if Maria and Gerald suddenly appeared exactly as Shadow remembered them, he wouldn't be so quick to just shrug off their existence. Their "deaths" could easily be chalked up to Shadow's admittedly spotty memory. Gerald never died in prison and Maria was just captured on Ark. it'd be lies but it's already established even briefly in-game that Infinite can plant those kind of fake memories to make his illusions more vivid.

-And Eggman wouldn't question the ghost girl who helped stopped Chaos when he worked with Sonic? Or better, wouldn't simply do research so he could determine how to control him.

-He knew Shadow would kill him. Dude, it's fucking Eggman, this is the person that fucked with Shadow into making him think he was a clone working for Eggman, the person who provokes Sonic at every turn, the person who destroyed an entire world and took it over while Shadow was completely powerless to stop him for six months. Eggman is an egotistical character who always challenges people who could rip him apart, or do you think the G.U.N agents that Eggman decided to provoke while trying to steal the emeralds weren't going to try kill him either? The very idea Eggman wouldn't try to screw with Shadow makes no sense whatsoever when Shadow would have enough reason to kill him by Eggman destroying Omega and taking over the entire planet.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

-Shadow begins Virtual Reality accepting the illusion.

That's not what that means.  If I conjour a fake peice of cake in front of you, that doesn't mean you have accepted my illusion. That means I made you perceive a fake cake, and when you touch it will go away. Its not exclusive to you, everyone can see the cake, and they they touch they would realize the cake is fake. Its not exclusive the person I made the illusion. It isn't fear toxin and its literally creating fake constructs. 

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Despite being confused at first, he fully buys Rouge's story that they were trying to save Omega.

Except for he doesn't and breaks out, and infinite acknowledges that he breaks out and then leaves. I can link the youtube dialogue if you want

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

On top of that, it's fully implied Infinite can use the illusions to plant false memories since Shadow clearly remembers and states Omega was destroyed in a certain portion of Green Hill despite having no reason to know that.

Less fake memories , more suggestion. Shadow realized something was up, and got out. Its not that effective. And he never uses that power in the plot again so... it isn't that effective.

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

-Shadow beating an illusion in one strike doesn't have baring on the situation, virtual reality alone shows how powerful Infinite's illusions are when he literally fucks with Shadow's mind, and makes him fully accepting of the illusion. The only reason Shadow broke free was because Infinite was screwing with him and had Rouge fess up to it all being fake.

Shadow knows its an illusion now. So he literally wouldn't fall for it. Its why infinite leaves, it only works once. And then it breaks down, like the copies. 

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

-Shadow hasn't really had his memories manipulated, SA2 had him misremember Maria's wishes while in Shadow, Black Doom was technically telling the truth, Shadow was a combination of human science and the Black Arms to create someone to hunt the Chaos Emeralds for Doom.

No Black doom summoned his memories to try and convince him to join his side, along with invading his memories. He didn't fall for it. That's memory manipulation. He didn't fall for it. 

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

On top of that, I'm pretty sure if Maria and Gerald suddenly appeared exactly as Shadow remembered them, he wouldn't be so quick to just shrug off their existence.

Infinite doesn't know who they are. Eggman wouldn't tell him. 

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Their "deaths" could easily be chalked up to Shadow's admittedly spotty memory.

Nah too special, to do that would go back on shadow's entire character ark. I think them showing up in person would tip shadow off that shit's fake the most. Shadow the hedgehog opens up with maria dying beside him. So no that doesn't work. 

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Gerald never died in prison and Maria was just captured on Ark. it'd be lies but it's already established even briefly in-game that Infinite can plant those kind of fake memories to make his illusions more vivid.

Again shadow would know its fake because those people are special to him. Also infinite doesn't know who they are. So there's that. 

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

-And Eggman wouldn't question the ghost girl who helped stopped Chaos when he worked with Sonic? Or better, wouldn't simply do research so he could determine how to control him.

There's no research he could do to surmise any of that. The ghost appeared near the end, she vanished with out a trace. And odds are knuckles ain't telling eggman jack shit about who she is, for the exact reason you are listing. Eggman doesn't know who she is. Thus infinite doesn't know who she is. Next

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

-He knew Shadow would kill him. Dude, it's fucking Eggman, this is the person that fucked with Shadow into making him think he was a clone working for Eggman, the person who provokes Sonic at every turn, the person who destroyed an entire world and took it over while Shadow was completely powerless to stop him for six months.

That's fucked up, but eggman does something that eggman never does in earnest at the end of shadow's game. He apologizes . Whether it be out of fear of his own life, or genuinely feeling remorse he communicates this to shadow. So i'm assuming eggman isn't going down that well again. 

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Eggman is an egotistical character who always challenges people who could rip him apart, or do you think the G.U.N agents that Eggman decided to provoke while trying to steal the emeralds weren't going to try kill him either?

Because GUN has never been able to stop him. Sonic and his crew wont go that far. Shadow will, eggman knows this. This genuinely scary, this isn't the joking super incompetent boom eggman. This eggman despite his more jovial nature as of late is still the same eggman as in previous 3d entries He has the context , he gets infnite to distract  shadow while he blows up the base, gets infnite to make a clone off to throw the heroes off and because shadow's formidable. He can be antagonistic to shadow, but he clearly has limits eggman doesn't really push them with shadow often. 

1 minute ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

The very idea Eggman wouldn't try to screw with Shadow makes no sense whatsoever when Shadow would have enough reason to kill him by Eggman destroying Omega and taking over the entire planet.

Because shadow's a problem he has no idea how to deal with. And for omega, omega is a robot. And you can fix or take the parts that make omega , omega and just put them in another casing. He cares about him as a friend, but theres a lot of leniency  in regards to safety when your friend is a baller ass robot with guns. I'm surprised they haven't done that before, You know what would have made tails feel like he did something. If he had to build omega a new body, and he came back at the end of the story with a new as body maybe a new voice. Now if omega killed rouge like hurt her real bad, Oh he ded,  or at least brutally maimed. 

As far as destroying the world goes, I can only chalk this up to, anime logic. Which is " wanting to take over the world" eh sure we can work it out " killing that one guy i like " I'm going to kill you. To take this from a major influence on sonic , dragonball. Goku only got SS upset when Frieza got krillien, not the planetary genocide(s) that occurred before it was krillin. Even in the moble game sonic runners shadow brushes eggmans attempts at world take over as " you should probably stop doing this " , it trats the cartoonish idea of world take over as it is. However personal threats against friends and family are usually met with more emotion because you can easily communicate to the audience that this character cares about this person and its real to them. Every vilian wants to take over and/or blow up the earth.

[Zippo]

2 hours ago, Ultimate Victory 64 said:

Coming from a guy that loved Justice League. I feel that is so untrue about the movie. Zack Snyder really did a good job with the movie. Also at least Steppenwolf had motive I still don't know what was the point of Infinite.

And I couldn't disagree more. I think Justice League is an awful film, from beginning to end. A hot mess, better than Batman V. Superman for sure, but that's not saying much, at all, because that film has become legendary for being fucking terrible.

[Ultimate Victory 64]

3 hours ago, Zippo said:

And I couldn't disagree more. I think Justice League is an awful film, from beginning to end. A hot mess, Better than Batman V. Superman for sure, but that's not saying much at all, because that film has become legendary for being fucking terrible.

 Coming from a guy that loves even Batman v Superman I respectfully disagree with those statements. 

[Patron]

@Ryannumber1gamer @Shadowlax You're both right in some way. As far as the final script goes, Shadow accepts the illusion, yet Infinite hasn't fully mastered his powers yet, leading to his trauma leaking into the virtual reality ("I am not defeated. I am not weak. I am not weak. I AM NOT WEAK... I AM NOT WEAK... I AM NOT WEAK..."). It doesn't help either that he's directly rubbing it into Shadow's face ("Sure seems that way. Probably because it never really happened!").

About half of the stage's lines got cut. Originally Shadow knew immediately that he was trapped ("This doesn't feel like an illusion, but could it be a trap? Fine, I'll play along."), yet stopped questioning his cirumstance under prolonged influence. He only wised up due to Infinite tripping over his own lies ("Rouge, what happened to Omega?" - "Who knows? We haven't heard a beat from him since he was dispatched last week" - "I thought you said he was destroyed three months ago?" - "In any case, that Omega sure is a clumsy bucket of bolts, isn't he?") and not staying in character ("Oh, I can't wait to see the look on that smashed up tin can's face" "You... are you really Rogue?").

More cut content. That little bit alone would have given the breakout from Null Space more context, not to mention that they wouldn't have left the inescapable void in mere seconds.

[Dr. Detective]

I feel like the fallout from Forces makes me feel the most comfortable I've ever been when admitting that I actually liked a lot of the cutscenes and dialogue in Rise of Lyric. Especially when it was just Sonic and Tails by themselves, bantering and having casual discussion in the levels. Asking how they're doing and whether or not they've noticed if Eggman's gotten thinner from workout or stress. 

I know Pontac and Graff didn't write that one. Whoever did I feel could be given a bit of a second chance. 

Oh wait. Sonic News Network says it was written by John Melchior and Christina Cantamessa. Well, you two... I want to give you a second chance. Meet me at my office.  

 

 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

5 minutes ago, Patron said:

@Ryannumber1gamer @Shadowlax You're both right in some way. As far as the final script goes, Shadow accepts the illusion, yet Infinite hasn't fully mastered his powers yet, leading to his trauma leaking into the virtual reality ("I am not defeated. I am not weak. I am not weak. I AM NOT WEAK... I AM NOT WEAK... I AM NOT WEAK..."). It doesn't help either that he's directly rubbing it into Shadow's face ("Sure seems that way. Probably because it never really happened!").

About half of the stage's lines got cut. Originally Shadow knew immediately that he was trapped ("This doesn't feel like an illusion, but could it be a trap? Fine, I'll play along."), yet stopped questioning his cirumstance under prolonged influence. He only wised up due to Infinite tripping over his own lies ("Rouge, what happened to Omega?" - "Who knows? We haven't heard a beat from him since he was dispatched last week" - "I thought you said he was destroyed three months ago?" - "In any case, that Omega sure is a clumsy bucket of bolts, isn't he?") and not staying in character ("Oh, I can't wait to see the look on that smashed up tin can's face" "You... are you really Rogue?").

More cut content. That little bit alone would have given the breakout from Null Space more context, not to mention that they wouldn't have left the inescapable void in mere seconds.

To be fair, I can kind of see why that portion of Null Space was cut. Unlike the Green Hill chase where you get indication of where the hazards will land when you're being chased, the cubes in Null Space randomly pop up, meaning a lot of cheap deaths due to being unable to see hazards.

[Patron]

Just now, Ryannumber1gamer said:

To be fair, I can kind of see why that portion of Null Space was cut. Unlike the Green Hill chase where you get indication of where the hazards will land when you're being chased, the cubes in Null Space randomly pop up, meaning a lot of cheap deaths due to being unable to see hazards.

Not sure whether this is actually how it's intended to be. The camera starts behind Sonic, then turns around. I'd chalk it up under modding weirdness.

[Nuggets]

Have we figured out what getting all the Red Rings does yet?

[Patron]

46 minutes ago, Nuggets said:

Have we figured out what getting all the Red Rings does yet?

Presumably unlocking Super Sonic once the DLC arrives (either directly or indirectly through the Extra stages).

[Razule]

51 minutes ago, Nuggets said:

Have we figured out what getting all the Red Rings does yet?

A sense of pride and accomplishment.

[dbzfan7]

1 hour ago, Razule said:

A sense of pride and accomplishment.

Is that some sort of power up or collectible to unlock?

[Multikaris]

About Tikal, Eggman could torture Knuckles for information on her. Maybe even to death to have a second ghost on our hands. Would make the game even Edgier. Or they could go with the apparent idea from Mania’s deleted slot machine that Knuckles was really in cahoots with Eggman all along and have him gleefully spill the beans out of spite towards Sonic. (I still headcanon that yes, he was really with Eggman so he could bog the resistance down)

[Meta77]

6 minutes ago, SaberX said:

Death and torture should stay away from Sonic games lol. Being imprisonated and see the world in ruins is enought edgy for Sonic games.

Death is not edgy. Lord people attach that word to anything these days. Death is a natural element in story telling and can be good when done right. Nearly every series has a death unless someone's watching paw patrol. 

[dbzfan7]

I don't think there is anything wrong with death. It used to be mentioned all the time in children's cartoons. It's not some edgelord concept. It's just part of life itself. It's how the subject matter is treated that decides whether the tone becomes edgy or not. Still hate that word. Mentioning death doesn't immediately mean something is trying hard to be dark or serious.

[Razule]

What exactly is the definition of "edge" here? Synonym for darkness in general, or just when something dark is handled badly?