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Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

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6 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

He actually conquers the world 99.9%.

Off-screen. And he's losing ground (well sorta, since it's hard to tell he actually conquered anywhere) across the game.

7 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Effectively captures and has Sonic beaten/tortured.

Tell me what stopped Eggman from doing to more disable Sonic instead of just slapping a pair of cuffs on him.

7 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

That's far more than anything he has accomplished in Colors. He effectively won. His lack of flair and being rather dull with his rule doesn't change the fact this pretty much is the greatest victory he has ever had.

Learn what's on-screen against off-screen. And him having little impact on the world undermines this being his finest hour.

8 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

 In Colors he farted about, basically failed by boss 1, and couldn't even hypnotize Tails to at least get some victory. He was a loser by the beginning and end.

Eggman depends on Infinite to project the illusion (heh) he's threatening. He even gets chased off by a Blue Hedgehog early on.

8 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

He accomplished far more than the resistance which was useless without Sonic as in 6 month's they couldn't do shit, while Sonic & Sonic could do everything in 3 days.

The non-Sonic cast was poorly done. And?

8 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Sonic has always had edge, even in the classic days. He just wasn't try hard edge. What with woodland critters being captured and forced into robots. Forest fires. Pollution and destruction on a wide scale from manufactured progress, etc. That creepy ass Sonic CD screen in the game. It's not til Colors where he became full on generic Saturday Morning Cartoon hog in love with his own farts.

You're talking about a series with a lead modeled on Mickey Mouse, a villain on Theodore Roosevelt, a Death Star with a mustache, etc. None of what you listed was treated as serious drama.

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51 minutes ago, Almar said:

Off-screen. And he's losing ground (well sorta, since it's hard to tell he actually conquered anywhere) across the game.

Tell me what stopped Eggman from doing to more disable Sonic instead of just slapping a pair of cuffs on him.

Learn what's on-screen against off-screen. And him having little impact on the world undermines this being his finest hour.

Eggman depends on Infinite to project the illusion (heh) he's threatening. He even gets chased off by a Blue Hedgehog early on.

The non-Sonic cast was poorly done. And?

You're talking about a series with a lead modeled on Mickey Mouse, a villain on Theodore Roosevelt, a Death Star with a mustache, etc. None of what you listed was treated as serious drama.

It doesn't matter if off screen or not. He conquered the world. 99.9% of it. Nothing Eggman does in Colors even compares to that. Just because it was shown off poorly, doesn't change the fact he accomplished his goal. Poor execution of story does not change the fact he scored a major victory.

I don't know what point you are making here. I never said Eggman was amazing here. I said he's still accomplished more than he did in Colors, which was jack shit. In Colors not only does he not capture Sonic, but fails at literally everything he tries.

Again I'm going by actual context and accomplishments. On screen and Off screen doesn't matter. We see the world in ruins, his robots everywhere. He captured Sonic. He created a being that could beat Sonic. Now what did he do in Colors that comes anywhere near this successful? He created a hypono beam that failed him? He enslaved some Aliens off screen so I suppose by your definition that doesn't count. He...um.....got mocked by his sidekicks? Not sure what exactly he did in Colors that was even close to any success. What story did you see? He apparently didn't conquer the world? He didn't create a being that beat Sonic on screen (Which alone is better than anything Colors Eggman could do)? He didn't force a resistance to be made because of his massive take over, unlike other games like Unleashed, Colors, Generations, and Lost World where there was no need to band everyone together apparently? What the story tells us is what matters most in context. You can't argue "Off screen doesn't count" when the story tells us otherwise."  Even if you want to try that nothing Colors Eggman does both on screen and off screen combined compare anyways.

In a bout that meant absolutely nothing. Not to mention he was the one who made Infinite as powerful as he was. Infinite is his masterpiece that is beyond even Metal Sonic. He even laughs off the loss to Classic as it literally means nothing. His loss there does not at all hinder his plans when things are still heavily in his favor. He even says his real master plan is coming later to wipe them all out. While in Colors he....basically sits in his room the entire time, fails miserably to even mind control Tails, and basically is a helpless child. At one point in Colors is there at any moment anyone believed Eggman had any sort of chance? In Forces he has Infinite who again effortlessly beats Sonic. He has the incredible power of the Phantom Ruby. In Colors......he at no point was any bit of a threat to Sonic....ever.

And it goes to show he's far more effective than pretty much the supporting cast combined. Not much of a compliment lately true. But even then, still more than Colors where he's not at all effective.

It was drama, just not the kind you expect from an older audience. Look no further than the likes of Disney for having drama. Hell you make the jokes about Mickey Mouse, but have you SEEN his actual material. His oldest stuff, his inception no less, is much different than you'd believe. He and Goofy especially despite being cartoon characters were a whole lot different in the old original cartoons. And of course those moments are serious. Robotnik does literal animal cruelty. It's a subject matter they don't show strongly, but the Genesis games weren't for telling grand stories nonetheless. We can then look to the 3D games from their very inception to have darker more serious subject matter. All the way from SA1 and beyond.

Seriously what does he do in Colors that is even remotely close to anything he accomplishes in Forces. Colors is the better game no doubt. The story in Colors while I hate it is more solid and cohesive yes, but he still is barely anything more than just an incompetent buffoon his own lackey's consistently mock.

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1 hour ago, Almar said:

Off-screen. And he's losing ground (well sorta, since it's hard to tell he actually conquered anywhere) across the game.

Tell me what stopped Eggman from doing to more disable Sonic instead of just slapping a pair of cuffs on him.

Learn what's on-screen against off-screen. And him having little impact on the world undermines this being his finest hour.

Eggman depends on Infinite to project the illusion (heh) he's threatening. He even gets chased off by a Blue Hedgehog early on.

The non-Sonic cast was poorly done. And?

You're talking about a series with a lead modeled on Mickey Mouse, a villain on Theodore Roosevelt, a Death Star with a mustache, etc. None of what you listed was treated as serious drama.

And none of it was treated as explicit comedy, either.

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12 hours ago, Almar said:

>The Sonics and OC do more or less everything that matters.

Bah.

The Resistance would have never known Sonic was alive if it wasn't for Rouge. Minus her, you can pretty much guarantee Eggman wins. Without her contribution, Sonic never makes it off the Death Egg.

Without Silver, Infinite would have completed his mission to destroy the Phantom Ruby prototypes. By making him drop it, and stalling long enough for Sonic to arrive, the OC was able to recover the vital plot device. No Silver means the entire resistance gets consumed by a sun at the end of the game.

Tails gives quite a bit of the marching orders for the second half of the game. Its his hacking and exposition that leads to a plan of action to weakening the Phantom Ruby - which leads to the destruction of the Death Egg - which leads to forcing Eggman's hand into a tactical retreat. That stuff probably doesn't happen without Tails.

Shadow plays a major informal role, by explaining what it is Infinite is capable of doing, which is pretty important. I'd attribute this to Rouge, but for whatever reason she was sitting on that tidbit... Either way, that was the point when they stopped spinning their tires and started making progress.

 

The side characters weren't utilized masterfully, but the actually had a fair bit you can credit to their name. Don't pass it off as a Sonic/Sonic/OC as the only guys that did anything.

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On 11/22/2017 at 3:33 PM, Yeow said:

Here's a fun little experiment.

Someone, after a second playthrough of Forces, constructed a supercut of what can broadly be described as all of the meaningful 3D gameplay sections (excluding bosses)...which only added up to 15 minutes' worth of gameplay. The uploaded gave a more specific account of the supercut, which you can read below:

Given how the estimated time given for beating the game is 2-4 hours without 100% completion (not going for the Red Rings/Numbered Rings/Moon Medals/Daily Missions/etc.)...the 3D gameplay only accounts for what, 1/8th to 1/16th of gameplay for the entire average playthrough. :v

Dang. Honestly, it's times like these when I wish I could have a direct convo with Aaron Webber with a copy SA1, SA2, Heroes, and 06 and ask why they decided to totally abandon more of the open world 3d sonic. Heck, even Unleashed had more expansive sections excluding the werehog segments.

So much of it is literally on rails too! I mean I know SA2 introduced the concept of grinding, and since then basically every major main series game since has had at least 2 levels that were primarily grinding, but come onnn. It doesn't feel like their trying to reinvent the wheel enough, and it's a shame because they just made a whole new game engine (albeit modeled off of the first Hedgehog Engine, which I still think looks better visually).

 

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15 minutes ago, Izuku Deku Midoriya said:

 

He literally had time to make a sandwich and eat it. ...Nah.

Sonic Forces You to Eat a Balanced Diet

The counter argument to this is that you'll get a better score by actually playing. But at worst, you'd lose a few seconds by charging up the double boost. I'm surprised to see how she safe the sky diving is if you don't move. Lol 

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33 minutes ago, Izuku Deku Midoriya said:

Because I just saw the 3D footage video and thought this numerous video was worth sharing. 

I really miss the days of Sonic in 3D where you actually had full control in a 3D space and it requires you to actually do things to progress.

He literally had time to make a sandwich and eat it. ...Nah.

Another guide on how to play

 

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@Sega DogTagz I guess the other characters did some important things. The problem was that the stuff they did wasn't as acknowledged as the things the Sonics and OC did, so it felt like what they did didn't matter as much. You make a good point with that last sentence since their use here is a step in the right direction. 

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On 11/22/2017 at 3:33 PM, Yeow said:

Here's a fun little experiment.

Someone, after a second playthrough of Forces, constructed a supercut of what can broadly be described as all of the meaningful 3D gameplay sections (excluding bosses)...which only added up to 15 minutes' worth of gameplay. The uploaded gave a more specific account of the supercut, which you can read below:

Given how the estimated time given for beating the game is 2-4 hours without 100% completion (not going for the Red Rings/Numbered Rings/Moon Medals/Daily Missions/etc.)...the 3D gameplay only accounts for what, 1/8th to 1/16th of gameplay for the entire average playthrough. :v

What the fuck? A 3D game with at best 1/8 of it in 3D. So Forces is a 2.125D game

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15 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

It doesn't matter if off screen or not. He conquered the world. 99.9% of it. Nothing Eggman does in Colors even compares to that. Just because it was shown off poorly, doesn't change the fact he accomplished his goal. Poor execution of story does not change the fact he scored a major victory.

He conquered it and went and lost it thanks to the Sonics and OC. It wasn't even the Resistance. Just those 3 more or less.

15 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

I don't know what point you are making here. I never said Eggman was amazing here. I said he's still accomplished more than he did in Colors, which was jack shit. In Colors not only does he not capture Sonic, but fails at literally everything he tries.

Again, Show Don't Tell. We are told Eggman has conquered the world and it tries to make him look like a serious threat. What we actually get is him with far less of a presence in the game (Infinite=/=Eggman) and repeatedly losing ground throughout it.

Colors Eggman does better at letting the audience know he's corrupting an innocent world for his plans. Him succeeding or not is besides the point.

15 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Again I'm going by actual context and accomplishments. On screen and Off screen doesn't matter.

Yes it does. On-screen events automatically have more of an impact. This is what seperates Sonic CD from Forces despite over a decade difference in technology. We see the Little Planet before Eggman corrupts it. We see the toxic rivers, the seedy city, the empty mine after he corrupts it.

15 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

We see the world in ruins, his robots everywhere.

lol, the big city is still shiny even after he had six months to lord over it.

15 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

He captured Sonic.

And just slapped some cuffs. He didn't even tie up his legs.

15 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

He created a being that could beat Sonic.

More like he fluked his way into finding the Phantom Ruby then some loser mercenary fluked his way into connecting with it.

15 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

  He didn't force a resistance to be made because of his massive take over, unlike other games like Unleashed, Colors, Generations, and Lost World where there was no need to band everyone together apparently?

There wasn't a need for a resistance to begin with. The OC and Sonics do more or less everything important with the few exceptions could be done by the characters themselves absent of any army.

15 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

His loss there does not at all hinder his plans when things are still heavily in his favor. He even says his real master plan is coming later to wipe them all out.

Which turns out to be chuck a sun at them. Which fails miserably.

15 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

hile in Colors he....basically sits in his room the entire time, fails miserably to even mind control Tails, and basically is a helpless child. At one point in Colors is there at any moment anyone believed Eggman had any sort of chance? In Forces he has Infinite who again effortlessly beats Sonic. He has the incredible power of the Phantom Ruby. In Colors......he at no point was any bit of a threat to Sonic....ever.

That's not Eggman being a threatening villain. That's Infinite being a threatening villain. All your post shows is that Infinite is the big threat of the game. Not Eggman.

15 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

And it goes to show he's far more effective than pretty much the supporting cast combined. Not much of a compliment lately true. But even then, still more than Colors where he's not at all effective.

Poor writing isn't a defense for Eggman.

15 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

It was drama, just not the kind you expect from an older audience. Look no further than the likes of Disney for having drama. Hell you make the jokes about Mickey Mouse, but have you SEEN his actual material. His oldest stuff, his inception no less, is much different than you'd believe. He and Goofy especially despite being cartoon characters were a whole lot different in the old original cartoons. And of course those moments are serious. Robotnik does literal animal cruelty. It's a subject matter they don't show strongly, but the Genesis games weren't for telling grand stories nonetheless. We can then look to the 3D games from their very inception to have darker more serious subject matter. All the way from SA1 and beyond.

You might as well say Shadow the Hedgehog was not at all out of place.

14 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Bah.

The Resistance would have never known Sonic was alive if it wasn't for Rouge. Minus her, you can pretty much guarantee Eggman wins. Without her contribution, Sonic never makes it off the Death Egg.

Without Silver, Infinite would have completed his mission to destroy the Phantom Ruby prototypes. By making him drop it, and stalling long enough for Sonic to arrive, the OC was able to recover the vital plot device. No Silver means the entire resistance gets consumed by a sun at the end of the game.

Tails gives quite a bit of the marching orders for the second half of the game. Its his hacking and exposition that leads to a plan of action to weakening the Phantom Ruby - which leads to the destruction of the Death Egg - which leads to forcing Eggman's hand into a tactical retreat. That stuff probably doesn't happen without Tails.

Shadow plays a major informal role, by explaining what it is Infinite is capable of doing, which is pretty important. I'd attribute this to Rouge, but for whatever reason she was sitting on that tidbit... Either way, that was the point when they stopped spinning their tires and started making progress.

You're trying too hard to make Sonic's posse important. Shadow barely does anything despite being on Sonic's level, Tails' poor showing has been noted already, at most you have Rouge and Silver.

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27 minutes ago, Almar said:

He conquered it and went and lost it thanks to the Sonics and OC. It wasn't even the Resistance. Just those 3 more or less.

Again, Show Don't Tell. We are told Eggman has conquered the world and it tries to make him look like a serious threat. What we actually get is him with far less of a presence in the game (Infinite=/=Eggman) and repeatedly losing ground throughout it.

Colors Eggman does better at letting the audience know he's corrupting an innocent world for his plans. Him succeeding or not is besides the point.

Yes it does. On-screen events automatically have more of an impact. This is what seperates Sonic CD from Forces despite over a decade difference in technology. We see the Little Planet before Eggman corrupts it. We see the toxic rivers, the seedy city, the empty mine after he corrupts it.

lol, the big city is still shiny even after he had six months to lord over it.

And just slapped some cuffs. He didn't even tie up his legs.

More like he fluked his way into finding the Phantom Ruby then some loser mercenary fluked his way into connecting with it.

There wasn't a need for a resistance to begin with. The OC and Sonics do more or less everything important with the few exceptions could be done by the characters themselves absent of any army.

Which turns out to be chuck a sun at them. Which fails miserably.

That's not Eggman being a threatening villain. That's Infinite being a threatening villain. All your post shows is that Infinite is the big threat of the game. Not Eggman.

Poor writing isn't a defense for Eggman.

You might as well say Shadow the Hedgehog was not at all out of place.

Held the world for 6 months. Still more than anything he did in Colors.

I agree with show don't tell, but you're blaming the badly done story, and not taking it as what it is. Eggman took over the world. That is the story. Eggman did no such thing in colors or close to it. Therefore Eggman Forces is more successful than Eggman Colors.

YES IT IS THE POINT! What he is shown doing is irrelevant as he succeeds at nothing. He fails at every turn and never once succeeds. He's not worth taking the least bit seriously.

You are arguing from a whole other plane of existence. I am not arguing Forces story is good, or even has the best Eggman. I am saying by definition he has succeeded more than he has ever before. It's just his character is so dull and told poorly we don't get to enjoy that. Just as how in Unleashed he also magically got Eggman land and we never see it being made.

Which is poor showing from Sonic Team and level ascetics. Unless that magically rewrites the story that was said and shown off, Eggman still won. I mean were all the characters just delusional then? Eggman didn't win? Eggman didn't take over the world? Eggman didn't create a being that beat Sonic? Was all that just an illusion? Care to tell me what the secret real story was? This supposed story where apparently Eggman didn't do anything, is laughable, and accomplished nothing....oh that's just Colors.

And still managed to hold him for 6 month's. If this were Colors Eggman then he'd have gotten out of prison in like a millisecond because he's so incompetent.

And used it's power to make a being to defeat Sonic. You know actually follow through with something he made. Let's compare that to Colors. He makes a mind control machine that barely works and accomplishes nothing....amazing.

No denying that. But let's list accomplishments.

Colors

-Captures Alien species

-Accomplishes nothing at all with them.

Forces

-Stumbles onto Ruby

-Creates being that beats Sonic

-Takes over world

Don't believe Colors Eggman accomplishes anything close to that. He doesn't beat Sonic. He doesn't conquer the world. He also isn't laughed at by his own sidekicks.

Because they happened to have a proto Ruby to counter it. And even then had to be reminded of it's use. Not even comparable to Sonic beats boss 1 and then Eggman's plans are basically already foiled just from that. It was a literal deus ex maguffin that had absolutely no use throughout the whole game til the last second. It's a byproduct of bad writing.

There would be no Infinite if not for Eggman. Just as there would be no Metal Sonic. Eggman made Infinite. Infinite did not make himself. Infinite is not a being that just existed like Chaos or Shadow. He was created. He is Eggman's ultimate creation. 

Poor writing doesn't change what the story told us.

It's most out of place feature was trying real hard to be edgy. Like I said. Actually watch the old Micky Mouse Cartoons. Micky Mouse is quite a bastard in those. Not to mention Sonic was never a running comedian either, yet here we are today.

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Ever get that feeling where it feels like there's a hint of stubborn pettiness concerning minute bits of detail and/or presentation that causes a pervasive air of negativity and makes you wanna just scroll past certain posts on sight?

 

Cause I've had a more times than I'm comfortable with.

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Classic chemical plant looks so beautiful in forces. And the design isnt bad in itself but the lack of enemies is depressing. 

Guardian Rock ( Avatar Green Hill) is frustrating.

Metropolis was fun and interesting. 

Metal Sonic's fight. I had the lightning wispon so I bareky used my dog character. So it was mostly a Sonic boss fight for me.

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Someone needs to do a gif of Sonic's portrait image while smiling and nodding. It really looks like he's going either "Uh huh uh huh....kill me" or "Uh huh uh huh...oh crap can I be in Sonic Mania too."

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2 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Someone needs to do a gif of Sonic's portrait image while smiling and nodding. It really looks like he's going either "Uh huh uh huh....kill me" or "Uh huh uh huh...oh crap can I be in Sonic Mania too."

Do you mean Classic Sonic? His portrait picture in Forces makes me laugh because he looks so damn serious. Tails is just babbling on and on about shit and Classic Sonic looks like he’s thinking “What am I doing here?” and not really paying attention to what Tails is saying. XD I mean God at least Avatar changes expressions, as far as I know Classic Sonic always has that serious expression in those talking portrait cutscenes. 

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1 minute ago, Gabz Girl said:

Do you mean Classic Sonic? His portrait picture in Forces makes me laugh because he looks so damn serious. Tails is just babbling on and on about shit and Classic Sonic looks like he’s thinking “What am I doing here?” and not really paying attention to what Tails is saying. XD I mean God at least Avatar changes expressions, as far as I know Classic Sonic always has that serious expression in those talking portrait cutscenes. 

I mean modern because he has a stupid grin on his face as he nods his head over and over again.

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1 minute ago, dbzfan7 said:

I mean modern because he has a stupid grin on his face as he nods his head over and over again.

Oh right! I never really noticed him doing that in those cutscenes but it sounds funny. I was watching Avatar and Classic Sonic’s faces more than the other characters. I also love Avatar’s weird gaping mouth at one point, it looks hilarious. 

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On 11/24/2017 at 2:18 PM, Almar said:

You're trying too hard to make Sonic's posse important. Shadow barely does anything despite being on Sonic's level, Tails' poor showing has been noted already, at most you have Rouge and Silver.

Seeing as how you said "The Sonics and OC do more or less everything that matters", then Rouge and Silver is all I need.

Case in point, that story wouldn't have turned out as it did without the involvement of at least those two. In fact, without their direct involvement, Sonic would have been tossed into deep space and the entire resistance would have been killed by the sun.

 

Not sure how you equate that as trying too hard... I think my point is pretty easy and straight forward. If you want to say Sonic/Sonic/OC is all that mattered to the story, or are the only ones who accomplish anything of merit, then you are clearly on the wrong side of the facts.

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2 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Seeing as how you said "The Sonics and OC do more or less everything that matters", then Rouge and Silver is all I need.

Case in point, that story wouldn't have turned out as it did without the involvement of at least those two. In fact, without their direct involvement, Sonic would have been tossed into deep space and the entire resistance would have been killed by the sun.

 

Not sure how you equate that as trying too hard... I think my point is pretty easy and straight forward. If you want to say Sonic/Sonic/OC is all that mattered to the story, or are the only ones who accomplish anything of merit, then you are clearly on the wrong side of the facts.

Well at least two other characters did something; thought I me it ask how would thighs have been different without Rouge? Silver I understand with the prototype dropped during his fight with Infinite.

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On 24/11/2017 at 6:36 AM, Izuku Deku Midoriya said:

Because I just saw the 3D footage video and thought this humerous video was worth sharing. 

I really miss the days of Sonic in 3D where you actually had full control in a 3D space and it requires you to actually do things to progress.

He literally had time to make a sandwich and eat it. ...Nah.

I remember when I discovered this at EGX and people on this forum said I was making it up.

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1 hour ago, RedFox99 said:

Well at least two other characters did something; thought I me it ask how would thighs have been different without Rouge? Silver I understand with the prototype dropped during his fight with Infinite.

Without Rouge the resistance would have never found out Sonic was still alive. She is the only one with the skillset and the ability to do what she did. No Rouge, no Modern Sonic.

and without Modern Sonic... well you can guess what would happen without him.

 

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5 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Without Rouge the resistance would have never found out Sonic was still alive. She is the only one with the skillset and the ability to do what she did. No Rouge, no Modern Sonic.

and without Modern Sonic... well you can guess what would happen without him.

 

Good point. I guess what angered people was that this wasn't acknowledged that much in the story itself.

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