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Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

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Huh, I didn't expect that people would still be talking about the tone of this game. And here I thought we would have gotten used to the idea of a more invested cartoon story about a talking blue hedgehog after years of Pixar, Disney, Dreamworks, and Cartoon Network animation having well developed and emotionally complex stories. Need I remind anyone that Steven Universe is a highly popular series that was often marketed to kids where characters would go through emotional trauma and dealing with loss on a very frequent basis where the very real threat of war exists. 

But hey, don't mind me. Torture in a Sonic game is totally family unfriendly and Sonic should never be dramatic if that's what I've learned from this fandom. It totally isn't that the execution and substance is where Forces failed instead of the tone, though in this fandom I guess I'm still in some weird minority that still likes the comics where Robotnik is a bombastic villain and is an active threat and the Freedom Fighters beat him back from trying to enforce a rule of tyranny. 

Look, I'm not against Sonic as a cartoon. 

I just don't like your strict definition of what that entails. I'm not a fan of that kind of condescension to kids. I think Don Bluth put it best. Kids can handle the dark stuff as long as that doesn't overpower a happy ending (and in this case, any sense of storytelling, Sega took notes from DC Comics apparently). 

Man, I've seen animated toys that I grew up with accept the inevitability of death in a G rated film. I think you all can handle some mature topics in your Sonic game. 

... on one hand though, that would take actual storytellers to do this right. However, if there's one thing I've come to hate is that the reason we shouldn't do mature topics in Sonic is because of him being a cartoon hedgehog. Which is bunk. I'm not arguing to turn Sonic into Watership Down or Plague Dogs. I'm saying that it should be more than a generic Illumination Animation level story. 

And at this point, Sonic as a series has been a Johnny Test level flanderization of itself for way too long. 

And on this note, DrawerLoverLala wrote and drew a far better take on Sonic and Tails's reunion. 

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Sonic shouldn't try to be serious because it doesn't have anything worth saying and it's never going to be allowed to become something with anything worth saying, by Sonic Team or by the fans. It's a mountain of bad ideas and missed opportunities piled on top of a simple early '90s platformer story and nobody has the balls to let it go.

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6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic shouldn't try to be serious because it doesn't have anything worth saying and it's never going to be allowed to become something with anything worth saying, by Sonic Team or by the fans. It's a mountain of bad ideas and missed opportunities piled on top of a simple early '90s platformer story and nobody has the balls to let it go.

If another developer made it something with something worth saying, or made the missed opportunities no longer missed, would it become acceptable?

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10 hours ago, Mayor D said:

I remember when I discovered this at EGX and people on this forum said I was making it up.

Speaking of things you noticed specifically, I believe you mentioned how instantaneous the acceleration is in this game. Sonic walks for a few steps where you have relatively tight control over him, and then he'll suddenly hit top speed and lose almost any ability to turn. This was immediately noticeable to me upon playing the demo, but I've seen a number of other people experience it during slower sections and think it was a glitch. It's especially bad inside the pyramid in the GHZ tag team stage, because you're surrounded by pits on large platforms where you're supposed to take it slowly. 

 

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9 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic shouldn't try to be serious because it doesn't have anything worth saying and it's never going to be allowed to become something with anything worth saying, by Sonic Team or by the fans. It's a mountain of bad ideas and missed opportunities piled on top of a simple early '90s platformer story and nobody has the balls to let it go.

I feel like you don't understand or have a superficial grasp of how media says things and are projecting an air of maturity on it that it doesn't call for due to your non understanding

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16 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic shouldn't try to be serious because it doesn't have anything worth saying and it's never going to be allowed to become something with anything worth saying, by Sonic Team or by the fans. It's a mountain of bad ideas and missed opportunities piled on top of a simple early '90s platformer story and nobody has the balls to let it go.

Alright. No offense meant when I say this. I really like it when you get into your criticisms of Sonic usually because you're kind of on point. 

But comments like these have me feeling like you really don't like Sonic anymore or care for it to be anything more than it was. Yeah, Mario was a simple platformer too and look what we got in a Mario game this year. We got fully fleshed out worlds full of people to meet on top of fun gameplay and sense of world on top of base platformer design and good sandboxes to explore. 

Sonic used to try to do that too. 

As much as I agree that Sonic Team/Sega wants Sonic to be more a brand than anything worth saying, the fanbase will agree to disagree. Last time I talked about storytelling in Sonic with friends I talked about leaning into the kind of writing level you see in Steven Universe. 

Also, bad ideas tend to be bad ideas due to poor execution without any tact. To sum Sonic up as a mountain of bad ideas suggests to me that you have no interest in this thing improving. I have my frustrations with Sonic in abundance too.  I understand your jaded outlook, but I kind of got tired of having that kind of outlook myself. I'm just saying. I used to think Adventure Time didn't have anything to say when it was in Season 1. Fast forward some seasons and I realized it was better than that. I'm saying that there's room for improvement and that it can happen. 

 

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On 26/11/2017 at 8:58 AM, Blue Blood said:

Speaking of things you noticed specifically, I believe you mentioned how instantaneous the acceleration is in this game. Sonic walks for a few steps where you have relatively tight control over him, and then he'll suddenly hit top speed and lose almost any ability to turn. This was immediately noticeable to me upon playing the demo, but I've seen a number of other people experience it during slower sections and think it was a glitch. It's especially bad inside the pyramid in the GHZ tag team stage, because you're surrounded by pits on large platforms where you're supposed to take it slowly. 

 

Glad I’m not the only one who noticed this! I think it was GHZ Pyramid when I first noticed how screwed up the jumping was, because controlling your jumps in that stage with both Sonic and Avatar is a pain in the ass. Generations never felt like this, the jumps there were nice and loose and easy to control. They feel sooo stiff and uncontrollable here, and it’s definitely got something to do with the speed and momentum being all kinds of fucked up. Classic Sonic has a similar issue, but then he plays nothing like he did in the Classics and Mania anyway! 

The number of times that I died playing Sonic Forces were mostly due to the crappy jumping mechanics and stiff controls, seriously. 

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You know what's a one thing I don't like in this game in kinda 'fundamental' level? Avatar gameplay.

Don't get me wrong, he still has few of better levels in this game (Operation Big Wave). But when it's boiled down, it's just Sonic-boost+OP_Gun.

The story, Modern Sonic, Classic Sonic, lack of few bosses. All of that could be fixed in some kind of remake, sequel or putting more effort int the first place. But I feel like the idea of slapping guns in Sonic platforming can end with  "eehh good-ish enough-ish" at best. Part of me wishes Avatar was just playable skin of Sonic with his own set of stages and after the final boss you can choose any "3D" stage with any "3D" character (kinda like you can play as Shadow).

I mean, does anyone thinks shooting in Sonic can be really fun-fun-fun, (assuming we keep standard platforming, enemies camera, etc.) ?

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On 11/24/2017 at 12:35 PM, dbzfan7 said:

Held the world for 6 months. Still more than anything he did in Colors.

I agree with show don't tell, but you're blaming the badly done story, and not taking it as what it is. Eggman took over the world. That is the story. Eggman did no such thing in colors or close to it. Therefore Eggman Forces is more successful than Eggman Colors.

YES IT IS THE POINT! What he is shown doing is irrelevant as he succeeds at nothing. He fails at every turn and never once succeeds. He's not worth taking the least bit seriously.

The point is, we don't actually see Eggman be more credible on-screen instead of just being told about it.

On 11/24/2017 at 12:35 PM, dbzfan7 said:

You are arguing from a whole other plane of existence. I am not arguing Forces story is good, or even has the best Eggman. I am saying by definition he has succeeded more than he has ever before. It's just his character is so dull and told poorly we don't get to enjoy that. Just as how in Unleashed he also magically got Eggman land and we never see it being made.

And I'm saying Eggman was better told in Colors which makes him the better villain.

On 11/24/2017 at 12:35 PM, dbzfan7 said:

Which is poor showing from Sonic Team and level ascetics. Unless that magically rewrites the story that was said and shown off, Eggman still won. I mean were all the characters just delusional then? Eggman didn't win? Eggman didn't take over the world? Eggman didn't create a being that beat Sonic? Was all that just an illusion? Care to tell me what the secret real story was? This supposed story where apparently Eggman didn't do anything, is laughable, and accomplished nothing....oh that's just Colors.
 

The game doesn't really show he did such. The point is the game could have just cut out the Eggman World bit and had him with Infinite be on the march.

On 11/24/2017 at 12:35 PM, dbzfan7 said:

And still managed to hold him for 6 month's. If this were Colors Eggman then he'd have gotten out of prison in like a millisecond because he's so incompetent.

He just slapped cuffs on him.

8 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Because they happened to have a proto Ruby to counter it. And even then had to be reminded of it's use. Not even comparable to Sonic beats boss 1 and then Eggman's plans are basically already foiled just from that. It was a literal deus ex maguffin that had absolutely no use throughout the whole game til the last second. It's a byproduct of bad writing.

What isn't?

1 hour ago, dbzfan7 said:

There would be no Infinite if not for Eggman. Just as there would be no Metal Sonic. Eggman made Infinite. Infinite did not make himself. Infinite is not a being that just existed like Chaos or Shadow. He was created. He is Eggman's ultimate creation.

He's a mercenary working for Eggman until Shadow whooped him then he connected with the Phantom Ruby. Eggman pumped him up but he didn't build him and he's obviously not a puppet ala Classic Metal Sonic.

1 hour ago, dbzfan7 said:

Poor writing doesn't change what the story told us.

What the story tells us doesn't mesh with what we actually witness.

1 hour ago, dbzfan7 said:

It's most out of place feature was trying real hard to be edgy. Like I said. Actually watch the old Micky Mouse Cartoons. Micky Mouse is quite a bastard in those. Not to mention Sonic was never a running comedian either, yet here we are today.

Mickey Mouse didn't take itself seriously. And even in the Classic games you had examples like Sonic getting one last shot at Eggman in Scrap Brain Zone, Metal Sonic dying from wall, Knuckles taking a swim in Launch Base Zone...

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8 minutes ago, Almar said:

The point is, we don't actually see Eggman be more credible on-screen instead of just being told about it.

And I'm saying Eggman was better told in Colors which makes him the better villain.

The game doesn't really show he did such. The point is the game could have just cut out the Eggman World bit and had him with Infinite be on the march.

He just slapped cuffs on him.

Changes absolutely nothing as that's putting the blame on bad story boarding, that doesn't change his accomplishment. Unless of course you would like to tell me what the real secret story of Sonic Forces is if apparently if it didn't happen on screen, then it didn't happen.

You can find the story better told there if you want, and honestly Colors is the more simple/stable story. You can find Eggman more interesting in Colors too. Still doesn't change the fact that Eggman took over in Forces, while in Colors he didn't accomplish one thing. Even in Sonic Riders he accomplished more than he did in Sonic Colors. At least he got everything together and got his damn carpet.

The game told us he did stuff, and therefore it happened. Simple as that. It may not be as good as show don't tell, but that's what the story is about. Unless of course the big bold writing on the black screen that says "Eggman took over the world" doesn't mean anything. It couldn't be any less subtle (Or lazy).

And held him restrained for 6 month's. Meanwhile Colors Eggman bumbles to even control one person, can't accomplish anything, and never at any point looks like he has anything under control. It's the big superstar hero, up against the bumbling buffoon. So immediately all tension and any excitement is dead in the water. An incompetent man child facing off against the overpowered hero isn't very interesting. 

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It's apparent the difference here is that you focus on what the game tries to tell you is happening while I focus on what's actually shown in the game. I fail to find Eggman's on-screen actions when not hanging on Infinite's coat-tail to be significantly more imposing than he's been in the series since Unleashed and say that he had more of a presence in Colors.

This train of posts makes me notice how damaging Infinite is as a character to not just the overall plot, but Eggman's status as a villain. You don't make the shiny brand new edgy henchman overshadow the established and iconic boss.

On 11/25/2017 at 3:04 PM, Sega DogTagz said:

Seeing as how you said "The Sonics and OC do more or less everything that matters", then Rouge and Silver is all I need.

Case in point, that story wouldn't have turned out as it did without the involvement of at least those two. In fact, without their direct involvement, Sonic would have been tossed into deep space and the entire resistance would have been killed by the sun.

 

Not sure how you equate that as trying too hard... I think my point is pretty easy and straight forward. If you want to say Sonic/Sonic/OC is all that mattered to the story, or are the only ones who accomplish anything of merit, then you are clearly on the wrong side of the facts.

"More or less" suggests that the large majority of the Resistance doesn't do anything that really matters. Rouge and Silver being among the exceptions who can be said to have done something that mattered without being embarrassed doesn't make up for how not so helpful the rest of them are.

The Resistance shtick could have been exercised with only Tails (Player Two), Silver (save the future again), and Rouge (bribed with jewels), at most, showing up to help Sonic and OC.

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11 minutes ago, Almar said:

It's apparent the difference here is that you focus on what the game tries to tell you is happening while I focus on what's actually shown in the game. I fail to find Eggman's on-screen actions when not hanging on Infinite's coat-tail to be significantly more imposing than he's been in the series since Unleashed and say that he had more of a presence in Colors.

This train of posts makes me notice how damaging Infinite is as a character to not just the overall plot, but Eggman's status as a villain. You don't make the shiny brand new edgy henchman overshadow the established and iconic boss.

I focus on what the game tells me and what actually IS the plot. You seem to focus on basically discrediting and ignoring the entire story and everything it told us simply because the way it presented the story was not very good. Just because the presentation of the game was not very good, especially with those cheap and lame chats on the world menu hub, doesn't immediately throw away what the plot said. We are shown Sonic defeated. We are shown the Resistance outmatched. We are told poorly via bland text of his take over which isn't a joke but literally what happens. We're shown Sonic imprisoned/told he was there for six months. That tells us not only has Eggman captured Sonic, but actually managed to somehow keep him imprisoned for half a year. Of course he has more of a presence in Colors, but it amounts to nothing but embarrassing himself and literally failing at every single turn. Sometimes less is more, and in this case less accomplished more. In Colors he captures aliens off screen to power a mind ray, which isn't really much different from his usual M.O. His machine fails and never works. He loses every single time and never once has even a slimmer of a victory. At what point can Eggman at any point consider he achieved anything in colors? Sonic beats him at every turn. He can't even make his mind ray work. His plans fall under by the very beginning of the game. His robots don't even believe in him. Robots he programmed. I mean at least in Generations his Time Eater defeated Sonic (Why it didn't just finish him off is stupid). At least in Riders he got the prize he was after, even if it wasn't entirely what he wanted. In Lost World he managed to control the Zeti, and only lost control because of Sonic's brashness, and in the end managed to get his suit powered up. He didn't lose control because he was incompetent. I think in 06 him sending the heroes to the dystopian future is more than anything he did in Colors. At least that lasted longer than a minute of mind control. Yeah that's barely anything, but even then it's somewhat of a tiny setback. More than I can say about the mind control of Tails.

He didn't even do that. Infinite is basically a suped up better Metal Sonic. He's Eggman's henchman to do his dirty work in the same vein as Metal Sonic. There'd be a point here if the plot had Infinite betray Eggman and take over everything himself. That would undermine Eggman. But instead Infinite was loyal the whole time. Once he became useless, Eggman betrayed him and perfected the Ruby. So he wasn't just thrown out by the monster of the week ala most of the 2000's games. Infinite undermining Eggman is like saying Metal Sonic undermines Eggman. They're both basically the pinnacle of his armies at their times. Infinite is merely the muscle Eggman created to do his fighting, just like how Metal Sonic was his muscle to fight and not think or plan.

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So I was at my local soul food restaurant a week ago, one of the guys there knows a lot of languages, don't know how he does it, and he's not exactly a fan of Sonic(he's not a fan of Mario either so it's cool) 

Anyway he did buy forces and told me that in the Japanese version Sonic was never tortured, Tails didn't "lose it" and Egg man didn't say "boom the end" during that cutscene when the sun was going to crash down. I later verified this with others.

In the line where it is said Sonic had been tortured, the jp version say he was imprisoned 

In the line where it is said Tails "lost it", in the jp version they just said they don't know where he is.

During the sun falling down, in the jp version an escape pod was mentioned by someone before Eggmans second to last line and the "boom the end" wasn't even a thing. All three if these don't even translate to anything the other versions added.

 

Now THE QUESTION IS why did Sega of America make those changes... 

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25 minutes ago, Steve McQwark Indeed said:

 

Now THE QUESTION IS why did Sega of America make those changes... 

Pontaff adding their own flair to the writing. They were hired to localize, not straight translate. How much freedom they have depends but as long as it's mostly the same and gives the same message as the original script (and fits the lip synching), it goes.

Localizing is kind of a necessary thing when it comes to untranslatable things like wordplay or culturally specific jokes. But if they literally did nothing but exactly what's in the original script (but edited to fit lip synch), then there's no point to hiring them. The question isn't "why", but "should they" change certain things.

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There were still some issues with Pontaff's script, despite the almost direct translation.

Like the Orbot and Cubot scene makes little sense in English. "Don't remind me... DUDE!" In the original, I recall there being a bit more of a punchline.

Also minor things like changing Tails' line from "He's right." to "Tru dat."

Also, there's probably more stuff in the text boxes that are different that I haven't seen. Like apparently they didn't say Sonic was tortured in the Japanese version. I haven't seen the original script for all the text boxes yet though.

 

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3 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

@dbzfan7 A lot of people don't like it when crucial plot points are just told to thw audience instead of being shown when it comws to visual media like movies or video games.

I'm not defending the story or characterization. I'm saying Forces Eggman accomplished more than Colors Eggman...that's it. 

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48 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I'm not defending the story or characterization. I'm saying Forces Eggman accomplished more than Colors Eggman...that's it. 

Oh, okay.

Yeah, he did accomplish more in this game; however, most of it wasn't expanded upon. Part of me now would like to see an comic adaptation of Forces.

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1 minute ago, RedFox99 said:

Oh, okay.

Yeah, he did accomplish more in this game; however, most of it wasn't expanded upon. Part of me now would like to see an comic adaptation of Forces.

Well by comic adaptation we only got those intro comic stuff...that's about it.

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