Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[JezMM]

I thought that pretty much since the current writing team took over, the scripts are written in English first then localised to Japanese?  Like the Japanese writers design the overall scenario obviously, but the actual scene-by-scene writing is done in English first nowadays?  Do we have any confirmation one way the other on whether it was the chicken or the egg here?

[Sega DogTagz]

17 hours ago, Almar said:

"More or less" suggests that the large majority of the Resistance doesn't do anything that really matters. Rouge and Silver being among the exceptions who can be said to have done something that mattered without being embarrassed doesn't make up for how not so helpful the rest of them are.

The Resistance shtick could have been exercised with only Tails (Player Two), Silver (save the future again), and Rouge (bribed with jewels), at most, showing up to help Sonic and OC.

So if we just happen to ignore the two "exceptions" that make contributions so vital to the overall narrative that it could not exist otherwise, then we can call the Resistance a non-factor?

In what reality does that make sense?

Well if we were to consider Usain Bolt an "exception" like that, the JMCN track team probably wouldn't have been a lock for all those gold medals. If M.J. was an "exception" like that, then I guess the Bulls woudn't have won all those championships and we'd look back on those teams as hot garbage.

You can't hand waive the work of a few MVPs and march forward to call the entire team a bust. Rouge and Silver were both important parts of the Resistance and made vital contributions. That "Team" got the job done in a handful of key spots that helped shaped the narrative. Without the Resistance, the whole thing would have gone belly up at least twice over (once for Sonic getting banished and second time for death by sun).

Sure there were standout performances, and not all members were asked to pull equal weight, but at the end of the day they all played under the Resistance banner and the day could not have been saved without them. Give them their props.

[Almar]

On 11/29/2017 at 2:23 AM, dbzfan7 said:

 

On 11/29/2017 at 2:23 AM, dbzfan7 said:

I focus on what the game tells me and what actually IS the plot. You seem to focus on basically discrediting and ignoring the entire story and everything it told us simply because the way it presented the story was not very good. Just because the presentation of the game was not very good, especially with those cheap and lame chats on the world menu hub, doesn't immediately throw away what the plot said.

What the plot tries to tell us doesn't mesh with what's seen.

On 11/29/2017 at 2:23 AM, dbzfan7 said:

We are shown Sonic defeated.

 

Thanks to one Infinite.

On 11/29/2017 at 2:23 AM, dbzfan7 said:

We are shown the Resistance outmatched.

 

Yeah well The Resistance is led by Knuckles who follows the Zapp Brannigan School of War. Shadow didn't really try hard to stop Team Eggman either.

Also, I'll point out that what are or more less Freedom Fighters don't belong in a series like current Sonic.

On 11/29/2017 at 2:23 AM, dbzfan7 said:

We are told poorly via bland text of his take over which isn't a joke but literally what happens.

And that's it.

On 11/29/2017 at 2:23 AM, dbzfan7 said:

We're shown Sonic imprisoned/told he was there for six months. That tells us not only has Eggman captured Sonic, but actually managed to somehow keep him imprisoned for half a year. 

 

And yet all he did to restrain Sonic was just slap some cuffs on him.

 

On 11/29/2017 at 2:23 AM, dbzfan7 said:

Of course he has more of a presence in Colors, but it amounts to nothing but embarrassing himself and literally failing at every single turn. Sometimes less is more, and in this case less accomplished more. In Colors he captures aliens off screen to power a mind ray, which isn't really much different from his usual M.O. His machine fails and never works. He loses every single time and never once has even a slimmer of a victory. At what point can Eggman at any point consider he achieved anything in colors? Sonic beats him at every turn. He can't even make his mind ray work. His plans fall under by the very beginning of the game. His robots don't even believe in him. Robots he programmed.

 

A difference is that Colors' Eggman isn't presented as some edgy conquerer of Sonic's World instead of the egglike goofball he's presented as back in Sonic OVA. When knowing what he's supposed to be, Colors' Eggman comes off as better executed even if he's not as "accomplished."

Forces' Eggman tries to make him seem like a serious world ruiner ala his SatAM version, but between his lack of presence for both himself and his empire, clinging to an underwhelming character named Infinite, and his ultimate plan to torch the world he tried to conquer he's a letdown.

On 11/29/2017 at 2:23 AM, dbzfan7 said:

I think in 06 him sending the heroes to the dystopian future is more than anything he did in Colors.

He was upstaged by Mephiles like how Infinite upstaged him.

On 11/29/2017 at 2:23 AM, dbzfan7 said:

He didn't even do that. Infinite is basically a suped up better Metal Sonic. He's Eggman's henchman to do his dirty work in the same vein as Metal Sonic. There'd be a point here if the plot had Infinite betray Eggman and take over everything himself. That would undermine Eggman. But instead Infinite was loyal the whole time. Once he became useless, Eggman betrayed him and perfected the Ruby. So he wasn't just thrown out by the monster of the week ala most of the 2000's games. Infinite undermining Eggman is like saying Metal Sonic undermines Eggman.

Infinite in both pre-release and ths game itself is presented as the key to Eggman's conquest, the major nemesis for the Sonics with Buddy, and ultimately hogs the spotlight. Him turning on Eggman or not is besides the point.

On 11/29/2017 at 2:23 AM, dbzfan7 said:

Infinite undermining Eggman is like saying Metal Sonic undermines Eggman. They're both basically the pinnacle of his armies at their times. Infinite is merely the muscle Eggman created to do his fighting, just like how Metal Sonic was his muscle to fight and not think or plan.

1. Infinite isn't just a robot puppet like Metal Sonic may or may not be.

2. Eggman didn't build him. A loser merc connected with the Phantom Ruby (which Eggman didn't build either) in a fluke.

 

[dbzfan7]

7 minutes ago, Almar said:

What the plot tries to tell us doesn't mesh with what's seen.

Thanks to one Infinite.

Yeah well The Resistance is led by Knuckles who follows the Zapp Brannigan School of War. Shadow didn't really try hard to stop Team Eggman either.

Also, I'll point out that what are or more less Freedom Fighters don't belong in a series like current Sonic.

And that's it.

And yet all he did to restrain Sonic was just slap some cuffs on him.

 

A difference is that Colors' Eggman isn't presented as some edgy conquerer of Sonic's World instead of the egglike goofball he's presented as back in Sonic OVA. When knowing what he's supposed to be, Colors' Eggman comes off as better executed even if he's not as "accomplished."

Forces' Eggman tries to make him seem like a serious world ruiner ala his SatAM version, but between his lack of presence for both himself and his empire, clinging to an underwhelming character named Infinite, and his ultimate plan to torch the world he tried to conquer he's a letdown.

He was upstaged by Mephiles like how Infinite upstaged him.

Infinite in both pre-release and ths game itself is presented as the key to Eggman's conquest, the major nemesis for the Sonics with Buddy, and ultimately hogs the spotlight. Him turning on Eggman or not is besides the point.

1. Infinite isn't just a robot puppet like Metal Sonic may or may not be.

2. Eggman didn't build him. A loser merc connected with the Phantom Ruby (which Eggman didn't build either) in a fluke.

 

Ah so then apparently none of it happened. Eggman took over the world? Nah didn't happen apparently because it was presented badly. So he didn't. Didn't exist, never happened The world just got worse for some reason and clearly everyone blamed Eggman. That's what happened surely.

Who he made. Infinite didn't just slap on a ruby and call himself a thing.

Which need I remind you not one person objected to...at all. Sonic included. Everyone including Sonic was aboard operation Big Wave.

Yes. Meanwhile Colors Eggman farts about and does nothing of accomplishment. Amazing.

More on Sonic than it is on Eggman. It worked. Meanwhile in Colors Eggman never wins according to his robots.

He comes off as a better and more interesting character. I never argued that. But to say Colors Eggman accomplished more than Forces Eggman is beyond silly.

Meanwhile Colors Eggman likes to think he's a big shot and a good villain while everyone around him including his own robots think he sucks. He never comes anywhere close to victory, Sonic can barely take him as any bit of a threat, his robots who he programmed sass him to know end....great evil genius programming there. And the most he actually does is have a bucket of sushi give Tails a tummy ache. Truly an evil genius capable of so much. Mindray does nothing, Infinite does something.Forces Eggman has earth besting his adversary. Colors he gets alien planets that he can't even hold for more than a few moments before he loses his grasp.

Infinite didn't upstage Eggman, or he'd be the final boss and have manipulated Eggman the whole time.

It is the point. He IS Eggman's general. He is Eggman's knight to Eggman being the King. Last I checked Infinite didn't just come out, slap a ruby in him, and say "Hey Eggman I'll take over the world for you."

1. But he is as he serves under Eggman, never betrays him, and not once tries to claim anything for himself. Unlike say Shadow in Adventure 2 who did just that.

2. Eggman did though. We are shown him going through the prototypes, Infinite in the test tube, etc. I'm not sure where you are getting "Infinite found Ruby, Slapped it in himself, and that was it.

So according to you

-Eggman did not take over the world despite that being the entire plot.

-Everyone saying Eggman took over the world basically went senile as he did not take over the world.

-Eggman holding Sonic for 6 month's is lame as he slapped cuffs on Sonic, and Sonic never managed to escape in those 6 month's. So Sonic was supposedly chilling and napping in there clearly this whole time, and not trying to get out ever. Sonic didn't feel like helping for six month's. Sonic was playing a joke on Eggman. So curious as to how Sonic made Eggman look bad by being captured for 6 month's. Clearly some sort of genius prank.

-Knuckles is dumb when there's no way to account for the Ruby's power, and his plan worked the next time they tried it.

-Eggman sucks because he uses a subordinate to essentially give him everything he could ever want, instead of just failing spectacularly at every turn like in Colors. Yeah what a loser. He should just fail at everything and be a laughing stock to everyone, now that is a successful villain.

-Infinite is the real villain despite serving under Eggman and then being tossed aside once Eggman found him useless. By definition being that Infinite is a pawn of Eggman.

-Infinite just slapped a ruby into himself and that was that.

-Everyone is a moron in the resistance as they followed Knuckles, agreed with all his plans etc.

-Colors Eggman accomplished more than Forces Eggman by accomplishing nothing. So Forces Eggman somehow accomplished less than nothing.

[Razule]

48 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Infinite didn't upstage Eggman, or he'd be the final boss and have manipulated Eggman the whole time.

I think by "upstage" means he's more relevant than Eggman. Eggman may be the reason Infinite has powers, but Infinite still seems to be mostly calling his own shots and is his own person first and foremost. He's less an extension of Eggman's will, and more someone with his own goals that happen to align with Eggman for the duration of the game.

And.. he's a mercenary who sided with Eggman literally because he was bored. He'd totally have betrayed him sooner or later 

[dbzfan7]

Just now, Razule said:

I think by "upstage" means he's more relevant than Eggman. Eggman may be the reason Infinite has powers, but Infinite still seems to be mostly calling his own shots and is his own person first and foremost. He's less an extension of Eggman's will, and more someone with his own goals that happen to align with Eggman for the duration of the game.

I'd agree with that, if he betrayed Eggman and constantly went against him. Instead he was pretty much Metal Sonic, but with more personality. Not particularly a memorable one, but still. He's more relevant as a "FORCE" than Eggman, but I don't consider Eggman to be the force or muscle. While he can get enjoyment out of personally being the muscle every now and then, I think he'd prefer just to sit back and laugh as one of his creations brings doom to his enemies.

[Almar]

19 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

19 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

So if we just happen to ignore the two "exceptions" that make contributions so vital to the overall narrative that it could not exist otherwise, then we can call the Resistance a non-factor?

In what reality does that make sense?

 

 

The one where almsost everybody in the Resistance was either cannon fodder, shameless fanservice, or expositionbots.

19 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

 

Well if we were to consider Usain Bolt an "exception" like that, the JMCN track team probably wouldn't have been a lock for all those gold medals. If M.J. was an "exception" like that, then I guess the Bulls woudn't have won all those championships and we'd look back on those teams as hot garbage.

 

 

If Bolt had superspeed leaving his teammates in dust and M.J. could fend off an entire enemy team by himself while his crew just sat around, you'd have this.

19 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

You can't hand waive the work of a few MVPs and march forward to call the entire team a bust. Rouge and Silver were both important parts of the Resistance and made vital contributions. That "Team" got the job done in a handful of key spots that helped shaped the narrative.

Meanwhile Knuckles' finest hour is telling you to find Sonic. Shadow just jumps off doing whatever even though he's at least on Sonic's level.

19 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Without the Resistance, the whole thing would have gone belly up at least twice over (once for Sonic getting banished and second time for death by sun).

Sure there were standout performances, and not all members were asked to pull equal weight, but at the end of the day they all played under the Resistance banner and the day could not have been saved without them. Give them their props.

That's not the Resistance being needed. That's Silver/Rouge/Tails maybe being needed. Like said, you can take out the Resistance schtick and just have Tails bribe Rouge to tell him where Sonic is while Silver hunts down Infinite and gets him to drop a prototype.

[Multikaris]

On 11/28/2017 at 10:59 PM, Almar said:

The point is, we don't actually see Eggman be more credible on-screen instead of just being told about it.

And I'm saying Eggman was better told in Colors which makes him the better villain.

The game doesn't really show he did such. The point is the game could have just cut out the Eggman World bit and had him with Infinite be on the march.

He just slapped cuffs on him.

What isn't?

He's a mercenary working for Eggman until Shadow whooped him then he connected with the Phantom Ruby. Eggman pumped him up but he didn't build him and he's obviously not a puppet ala Classic Metal Sonic.

What the story tells us doesn't mesh with what we actually witness.

Mickey Mouse didn't take itself seriously. And even in the Classic games you had examples like Sonic getting one last shot at Eggman in Scrap Brain Zone, Metal Sonic dying from wall, Knuckles taking a swim in Launch Base Zone...

But never to the severe extent of today. And there’s a strong difference between light, plausible slapstick and heavy wordplay faliures.

[Meta77]

To me infinite is still alive I feel.  granted I also felt he was either recalled cause eggman was tired of him not offing avatar or using the full ruby's power himself something he couldn't do if infinite was still bouncing about. Granted I wished he had a deeper story it's almost as bare as MHA

[Almar]

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

Ah so then apparently none of it happened. Eggman took over the world? Nah didn't happen apparently because it was presented badly. So he didn't. Didn't exist, never happened The world just got worse for some reason and clearly everyone blamed Eggman. That's what happened surely.

It fits as much as what we see in the game.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

Who he made. Infinite didn't just slap on a ruby and call himself a thing.

The Mercenary Formerly Known As Jackal was not built by Eggman or had a transformation in persona from what Eggman did. And he did stick the PR on himself.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

Which need I remind you not one person objected to...at all. Sonic included. Everyone including Sonic was aboard operation Big Wave.

Zapp Brannigan's lackeys approving his death plan isn't a point for Zapp.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

Yes. Meanwhile Colors Eggman farts about and does nothing of accomplishment. Amazing.

Maybe he needed an edgelord to help him.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

More on Sonic than it is on Eggman. It worked. Meanwhile in Colors Eggman never wins according to his robots.

"I won't do much counter my nemesis' key to victory (his speed)"

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

He comes off as a better and more interesting character. I never argued that. But to say Colors Eggman accomplished more than Forces Eggman is beyond silly.

Meanwhile Colors Eggman likes to think he's a big shot and a good villain while everyone around him including his own robots think he sucks. He never comes anywhere close to victory, Sonic can barely take him as any bit of a threat, his robots who he programmed sass him to know end....great evil genius programming there. And the most he actually does is have a bucket of sushi give Tails a tummy ache. Truly an evil genius capable of so much. Mindray does nothing, Infinite does something.Forces Eggman has earth besting his adversary. Colors he gets alien planets that he can't even hold for more than a few moments before he loses his grasp.

You have a fixation on "accomplishment." Regardless of how much it is seen or really fits with what we see.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

Infinite didn't upstage Eggman, or he'd be the final boss and have manipulated Eggman the whole time.

Next you'll be saying Mephiles didn't upstage since he never worked for Eggman to being with.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

It is the point. He IS Eggman's general. He is Eggman's knight to Eggman being the King. Last I checked Infinite didn't just come out, slap a ruby in him, and say "Hey Eggman I'll take over the world for you."

Except for the ruby bit, that's more or less what happened in the comic.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

1. But he is as he serves under Eggman, never betrays him, and not once tries to claim anything for himself. Unlike say Shadow in Adventure 2 who did just that.

He joined Eggman since he was bored with the world then got an upgrade from him. In practice they're more of a partnership or two villains working together then Eggman and Robo-Slave ala Metal Sonic.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

2. Eggman did though. We are shown him going through the prototypes, Infinite in the test tube, etc. I'm not sure where you are getting "Infinite found Ruby, Slapped it in himself, and that was it.

1. The comic shows him finding the PR near his door. And being surprised to see what it does. Which fits better with Mania's ending.

2. Infinite still wasn't built by Eggman.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

-Eggman did not take over the world despite that being the entire plot.

We see little signs of this instead of just some war-torn apocalypse. 

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

-Eggman holding Sonic for 6 month's is lame as he slapped cuffs on Sonic, and Sonic never managed to escape in those 6 month's. So Sonic was supposedly chilling and napping in there clearly this whole time, and not trying to get out ever. Sonic didn't feel like helping for six month's. Sonic was playing a joke on Eggman. So curious as to how Sonic made Eggman look bad by being captured for 6 month's. Clearly some sort of genius prank.

Tell us more on how Eggman did all he could to keep Sonic under control. When he didn't break or otherwise really disable Sonic's legs.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

-Knuckles is dumb when there's no way to account for the Ruby's power, and his plan worked the next time they tried it.

He should have known by OBW that Eggman had the PR (or some other method to make victory through arms against him not doable) and reconsidered attacking head-on without some way to counter it. Not to mention Amy saying he can't be trusted to take part in another assault or making a plan to attack a base head-on without intel (overrided by Rouge and Sonic).  Showing he's been seriously studying this book:

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

-Eggman sucks because he uses a subordinate to essentially give him everything he could ever want, instead of just failing spectacularly at every turn like in Colors. Yeah what a loser. He should just fail at everything and be a laughing stock to everyone, now that is a successful villain.

He fails hard in the Forces game as opposed to its backstory. And Eggman depending on a mercenary and some jewel he found on his lawn to get anywhere at all in Forces doesn't call to question his ability as a villain?

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

-Infinite is the real villain despite serving under Eggman and then being tossed aside once Eggman found him useless. By definition being that Infinite is a pawn of Eggman.

It's more that some merc allied with Eggman since he was bored with the world, turned edgelord thanks to Shadow, got an upgrade thanks to some jewel Eggman found on his lawn, helped out Eggman, finally loses, and ran off to be the final boss for the Super Sonic DLC.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

.-Infinite just slapped a ruby into himself and that was that.

He had his Weak moment then embraced the edgelord.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

-Everyone is a moron in the resistance as they followed Knuckles, agreed with all his plans etc.

Going from how they apparently can't save the world without Sonic (even though Shadow and Silver are around)...

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, dbzfan7 said:

-Colors Eggman accomplished more than Forces Eggman by accomplishing nothing. So Forces Eggman somehow accomplished less than nothing.

Maybe he needed his edgelord.

[dbzfan7]

I'm not sure what else to say. Your posts boil down basically to "I don't like this Eggman" "Edgelord lolz" and not really giving any sort of argument why Colors Eggman is a more successful villain than Forces Eggman. I give countless examples of why Forces Eggman accomplished more, and you gave your spin of things on your opinions of what I said, and what you disagreed with. Meanwhile I've yet to see what makes Colors Eggman the more capable successful villain. I ask for what he accomplished. What did he do to challenge Sonic. How much of a threat was he. And I get no answers what so ever. I just hear "You keep using accomplishments" as if I'm trying to say Forces Eggman is automatically a better character, which is NOT my point what so ever. I argue who got further in their plans, and who was the one who was more of a challenge. Being around more does not equal being the more accomplished villain, especially when his screen time amounts to nothing.

Seriously I say Eggman does nothing in Colors but fart around and basically suck at everything in contrast to Forces Eggman....and your response is "Maybe he needs an Edgelord to help". Seriously how does that in anyway show Colors Eggman is the more successful villain? It doesn't. At all. I swear you are arguing more for who is the better character, rather than who was the bigger threat to Sonic. Which is two different arguments all together.

I need actual feats, arguments, things that actually show off why Colors Eggman is a more capable villain, and not a complete joke. Whether I can pull out examples you agree with or not, at least I have some. I've not heard one thing he accomplished from you. Also "He's around more/isn't so called upstaged" is NOT a counterpoint. If anything all it proves is without the "Edgelord" he's completely useless and might as well not even bother being a villain.

[In All The World]

Hot damn, this thread still lives? Then again, there isn't much else to talk about involving Sonic, is there...

Oh well, gonna say some shit... it'll be short on my terms so don't worry about dragging your eyeballs and your mouse along the comment

 

My opinions on this game have changed significantly from launch... while I think it's still a decent, passable game, further analysis over the weeks have just left me longing for more. Really, let's be real here. This game feels like it was incomplete-- it was in development for a damn year while they spent the other 3 on the hedgehog engine. And the work paid off, because the game's fucking beautiful.

But in every other aspect, there's lacking. It's like Sonic's starting to follow that "graphics over gameplay" thing that so many games love to follow. But back to the "incomplete" thing. Everything feels like it could have worked, but they just didn't polish it. I mean for a game that supposedly took a year to make... impressive, I guess? You didn't make it a dumpster fire like 06 or Boom, but why, for the love of god, did they not spend more time on this? They didn't take their time to put the soul in this husk of a game. I'd love a story on this game's development process, to see just what the fuck went wrong here.

Yet, I still haven't quite given up on Sonic Team. I highly doubt they are a bunch of soulless idiots like many people just love to say they are and some may just be as disappointed as we are. So turn that into success, use our problems to make the game we deserve. IDC if it isn't GOTY shit, I just want something that breaks that shell Sonic games have been in for the past 10+ years... that "good, but not quite great" shit or "mediocre at best" pattern, all because each and every one of those games lacks one crucial element... after that, we can go from there. I want a Sonic game that doesn't feel incomplete, that doesn't make us go back and forth all the time, one that doesn't feel like it was thrust at us and expected to be liked.

 

so, yeah. TL;DR, don't Force it on us.

 

[Almar]

Read my posts. I didn't say Colors Eggman was more successful as a villain. I said that:

A. He has more of a presence than Forces Eggman while not depending on an edgelord which makes him better as a force of opposition for Sonic.

B. Forces Eggman conquering the world has so little impact on the world that it might as well have not happened.

C. He still botches Sonic's capture.

2 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

If anything all it proves is without the "Edgelord" he's completely useless and might as well not even bother being a villain.

You mean he's not?

[dbzfan7]

47 minutes ago, Almar said:

Read my posts. I didn't say Colors Eggman was more successful as a villain. I said that:

A. He has more of a presence than Forces Eggman while not depending on an edgelord which makes him better as a force of opposition for Sonic.

B. Forces Eggman conquering the world has so little impact on the world that it might as well have not happened.

C. He still botches Sonic's capture.

You mean he's not?

I disagree highly.

A. More of a presence does not equal a GOOD presence. He accomplishes nothing at all with said presence. He's never at any point even slightly more than a simple itch on Sonic's back and nothing more. I do not see how he can be a better opposition unless you're arguing strictly as a character. As an actual threat to Sonic, he's near non existent.

B. I wouldn't say he had no impact considering all the stuff that happened, it's just he had no class with his take over.

C. After an invasion from the Avatar and even then still greater than anything Colors Eggman has done as at least he did capture Sonic. Colors Eggman can't even say he captured Sonic. Nor can he really...brag about anything at all.

Yes he's been plenty capable. He's not merely a cartoonish buffoon who can't ever accomplish anything at all. Otherwise he'd hardly be an interesting villain. Bowser is plenty cartoonish and he still can get shit done.

[StaticMania]

Forces Eggman got deeds done off screen, but failed to be threat without Infinity Jackal...and ultimately wasn't entertaining.

Colors Eggman tried to get deeds done, still failed to be a threat...being more on-screen and just more involved allowed him to be entertaining.

 

Sonic treats him like a joke regardless.

 

This was sooo easy.

 

[RustyRick]

One pet peeve I have is how underplayed Eggman’s conquest of the world really is.

One thing I always found a humorous trademark of Eggman is how much he loves to plaster his face/logo on everything he considers his property being the egomaniac he is, so I was honestly expecting alot more Eggman-centric constructions to rampage through if he indeed conquered the world for the most part in the span of 6 months, nor do we see him gloat much about it like discussing with Orbot and Cubot where to place yet another statue of him on the world.

Edited December 3, 2017 by RustyRick
Forgot to add in a few words.

[Almar]

23 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

I disagree highly.

A. More of a presence does not equal a GOOD presence. He accomplishes nothing at all with said presence. He's never at any point even slightly more than a simple itch on Sonic's back and nothing more. I do not see how he can be a better opposition unless you're arguing strictly as a character. As an actual threat to Sonic, he's near non existent.

Eggman isn't a larger than life force of malice working through extensions of his will ala Sauron or SatAM/Archie's Eggman. If he has not a respectable presence then he's not much of a villain within context of his world. Infinite isn't a silent goon who's just a slave ala Metal Sonic. Forces Eggman isn't threatening enough by himself to work as a single force of opposition, has too little impact in the world he's conquered to work as some dark lord, and Infinite is too much of a seperate character.

23 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

B. I wouldn't say he had no impact considering all the stuff that happened, it's just he had no class with his take over.

We see a land like Green Hill Zone be desert before Eggman has finished conquering it. That casts doubt on how much of the world's state is from Eggman remaking it as opposed to the havoc from the conquest.

23 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

C. After an invasion from the Avatar and even then still greater than anything Colors Eggman has done as at least he did capture Sonic. Colors Eggman can't even say he captured Sonic. Nor can he really...brag about anything at all.

He had help from an edgelord.

[dbzfan7]

17 minutes ago, Almar said:

Eggman isn't a larger than life force of malice working through extensions of his will ala Sauron or SatAM/Archie's Eggman. If he has not a respectable presence then he's not much of a villain within context of his world. Infinite isn't a silent goon who's just a slave ala Metal Sonic. Forces Eggman isn't threatening enough by himself to work as a single force of opposition, has too little impact in the world he's conquered to work as some dark lord, and Infinite is too much of a seperate character.

We see a land like Green Hill Zone be desert before Eggman has finished conquering it. That casts doubt on how much of the world's state is from Eggman remaking it as opposed to the havoc from the conquest.

He had help from an edgelord.

He is though as everything that happened stemmed from his will. Not the will of someone else. Infinite didn't just go do whatever he wanted all the time. He was an obedient commander. Being a silent goon doesn't just suddenly strip away Metal Sonic from basically being the muscle. Though honestly I'm sure he totally could have used the phantom ruby of his own to take over or put it in Metal Sonic. I really doubt it would make much of a difference considering how powerful and effective the Ruby is.

Which is really the game designers being lazy. Story may lack visuals, but the dialogue tells us how it is. Just like how in Ocarina of Time the entire place is supposed to be taken over by Ganondorf, and honestly a lot of Hyrule is mostly untouched. Well cept for the evil empty market place that barely means much.

Ya gonna keep on going on about that, or are ya gonna give me any sort of evidence that Colors Eggman is a more capable and/or threatening villain?

[MysteriousGirl 92]

I'm currently working on something. The story I made up in still in progress.

Here's the link: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12745117/1/Sonic-Forces-Illusions-and-Cold-Hard-Truths

[Almar]

20 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

He is though as everything that happened stemmed from his will. Not the will of someone else.

Nope. He's not a big enough presence in the world to be Sauron.

20 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Infinite didn't just go do whatever he wanted all the time. He was an obedient commander.

Eggman didn't have any way to keep him obediant once he went full edgelord. He wasn't a robot slave. He's merc who allied with Eggman out of being bored with the world.

20 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Being a silent goon doesn't just suddenly strip away Metal Sonic from basically being the muscle

He wasn't presented as anything more than a weapon of Eggman's in the Classic era.

20 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Though honestly I'm sure he totally could have used the phantom ruby of his own to take over or put it in Metal Sonic. I really doubt it would make much of a difference considering how powerful and effective the Ruby is.

It'd make him look better than letting Jackal stick the ruby on himself and hiding behind him across the game.

20 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Which is really the game designers being lazy. Story may lack visuals, but the dialogue tells us how it is. Just like how in Ocarina of Time the entire place is supposed to be taken over by Ganondorf, and honestly a lot of Hyrule is mostly untouched. Well cept for the evil empty market place that barely means much.

He coveted Hyrule. And he still did better presenting himself as his world's dark lord.

20 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Ya gonna keep on going on about that, or are ya gonna give me any sort of evidence that Colors Eggman is a more capable and/or threatening villain?

You haven't demonstrated Forces Eggman actually is capable or threatening by himself. Forces Eggman is as big of a joke as other 3D Sonics, he just had an edgelord with a poorly codified jewel to hide behind this time.

[Razule]

Maybe powerful gems and various magical artifacts only work on robots and anthros only

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Almar said:

Nope. He's not a big enough presence in the world to be Sauron.

Eggman didn't have any way to keep him obediant once he went full edgelord. He wasn't a robot slave. He's merc who allied with Eggman out of being bored with the world.

He wasn't presented as anything more than a weapon of Eggman's in the Classic era.

It'd make him look better than letting Jackal stick the ruby on himself and hiding behind him across the game.

He coveted Hyrule. And he still did better presenting himself as his world's dark lord.

You haven't demonstrated Forces Eggman actually is capable or threatening by himself. Forces Eggman is as big of a joke as other 3D Sonics, he just had an edgelord with a poorly codified jewel to hide behind this time.

Well, it still better than the times he didn’t have a decent weapon to hide behind. And your response to the Genesis games not being slap-happy gag-a-minute joyrides?

[dbzfan7]

I'm not gonna bother continuing if you can't give me anything of Colors Eggman being this great, competent, better villain. All you've done is make your counter stance clear, but not ever give an actual point for your own case. And being "There" is not a proper answer. I can sum up your argument as "I disagree" which is fair enough. Though honestly the whole "Edgelord" trying to be hammered in as a point is rather childish. Counterpoints are one thing, but the original point has to actually be made and supported. I have demonstrated myself, and you disagreed and gave your reasoning. But the original point has been entirely skipped and not at all elaborated on.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, dbzfan7 said:

I'm not gonna bother continuing if you can't give me anything of Colors Eggman being this great, competent, better villain.

I don't care if he's more competent, really.

I care if he's a better character. Colors Eggman just has so much more personality than Forces Eggman does. As far as I'm concerned, this makes Colors' portrayal of Eggman far and away the better of the two. He utterly steals the show in the former, and just kinda feels like he's along for the ride in the latter.

[dbzfan7]

1 minute ago, Dr. Mechanhohoho said:

I don't care if he's more competent, really.

I care if he's a better character. Colors Eggman just has so much more personality than Forces Eggman does. As far as I'm concerned, this makes Colors' portrayal of Eggman far and away the better of the two. He utterly steals the show in the former, and just kinda feels like he's along for the ride in the latter.

Um....you know I was never arguing about better character right? I even mention earlier that "regardless of who is the better character". I am arguing accomplishments. Colors Eggman had all the flair and spunk of Eggman. I just hated him being portrayed as such a loser. It made me barely care about the simple plot, more so than any bad joke. Meanwhile I believe Forces had a more competent Eggman, but not as much fun and style of Colors Eggman so he ends up not as interesting or even as fun. So they're both on the exact opposite of the spectrum...like how the Sonic series does everything. Jumping back and forth to extremes rather than incorporating both sides.