Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, dbzfan7 said:

Um....you know I was never arguing about better character right? 

I do. I'm just saying that I don't find Forces Eggman's accomplishments terribly important, especially since most of them are off-screen and informed through text blurbs anyway.

He may have done more here than he did in Colors, but it's not like it was treated with much more gravity. It was also easily undone within the span of a single (and short) game. So Eggman finally conquering the world, which should have been a monumentous event in the Sonic franchise, just feels like another passing plot of the week. 

So yeah, Forces Eggman technically did more things. But I'm saying those things leave so little of an impact that they barely even matter.

[Almar]

6 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Well, it still better than the times he didn’t have a decent weapon to hide behind.

It calls to question what's Eggman's point as a villain if he can't really challenge Sonic and the world on his own with what he makes anymore.

7 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

And your response to the Genesis games not being slap-happy gag-a-minute joyrides?

Watch this:

Both that and Sonic OVA had Sega of Japan take part in production so I safely say Sonic was seen as being on the more silly side.

[dbzfan7]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Mechanhohoho said:

I do. I'm just saying that I don't find Forces Eggman's accomplishments terribly important, especially since most of them are off-screen and informed through text blurbs anyway.

He may have done more here than he did in Colors, but it's not like it was treated with much more gravity. It was also easily undone within the span of a single (and short) game. So Eggman finally conquering the world, which should have been a monumentous event in the Sonic franchise, just feels like another passing plot of the week. 

So yeah, Forces Eggman technically did more things. But I'm saying those things leave so little of an impact that they barely even matter.

Considering the ramifications and what all his actions forced the Sonic gang to do, I think he left a mark. I do agree it's not as large as it should have been though. I just breakdown the sorta two opposing sides. The one with the more fun villain, but who is utterly worthless and no one believes he's worth a damn, including his own robots. And then rather than proving those naysayers wrong, he proves them right the whole time. Then there's the more competent Eggman who succeeded at many things, but wasn't nearly as fun to watch because he subdued himself greatly. As well as bad production shrinking the atmosphere of his accomplishments.

They each give reasons and things against them. Like for me I can't stand really bothering with progression, because I feel like the buffoon would just fuck himself over. I feel like I'm picking on someone who's just misunderstood and wants to be bad because he can't do anything else, while ironically can't even be bad either. And on the otherside I feel I have a reason to go on, but a less interesting villain does make a narrative suffer.

[Multikaris]

18 minutes ago, Almar said:

It calls to question what's Eggman's point as a villain if he can't really challenge Sonic and the world on his own with what he makes anymore.

Watch this:

Both that and Sonic OVA had Sega of Japan take part in production so I safely say Sonic was seen as being on the more silly side.

Sonic Team did that short film a few years after the intial games. And there was also Sonic Ride.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

What I like about that silly Sonic Jam cartoon is that despite it being a goofy comedy, Eggman is still giving some casual darker bits. He is strangling that Sonic figure, he is causing traffic accidents. He's casually getting people hurt and enjoying the chaos.
I wouldn't mind Goofy wacky Eggman if he's portrayed like that, a mad jester.

Problem with modern comedy Eggman is that the jokes and his goofyness are always at His expense.
Outside of the P.A. commentary in Colors and the occasional jokes in Sonic Boom, he's the victim of the comedy mayhem, rarely the one dishing them out to others.

That's what annoys me the most about comedy Eggman. He should be on top of the game, at least until Sonic get's the upper hand at the end. Instead everyone including his own robots and himself are beating him down right out of the gate. That's why it feels like Eggman didn't " earn"  the victories he achieved in Forces and Colors, and why Sonic and friends come across like bullies instead of quirky heroes. At least to me.
Sonic getting back at Eggman should feel like the cathartic Karma payback after a long adventure, not the freaking INTRODUCTION to Eggman's evil scemes.

[Meta77]

I just want eggman to be a threat like in sa and sa2.

Besides ads in japan defintally should not be used to judge a games content.  cough link dance...there was no dancing in loz

[GuyWithThePie]

8 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Besides ads in japan defintally should not be used to judge a games content.  cough link dance...there was no dancing in loz

This is a joke, right? That "Sonic Man of the Year" thing was never meant to be an ad.

[Harkofthewaa]

Really, since Eggman himself is a rather goofy as a character while still being the big bad, I think the best approach would be like Mark Hamill's Joker. A portrayal that is goofy on the surface, but can be absolutely dark when he wants to be. Of course, that would require good writing.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Harkofthewaa said:

Really, since Eggman himself is a rather goofy as a character while still being the big bad, I think the best approach would be like Mark Hamill's Joker. A portrayal that is goofy on the surface, but can be absolutely dark when he wants to be. Of course, that would require good writing.

So, how Ian Flynn wrote him preboot

 

[Almar]

On 12/4/2017 at 6:26 PM, Miragnarok said:

Sonic Team did that short film a few years after the intial games. And there was also Sonic Ride.

It came out in the same year as Sonic R and a year after Sonic The Fighters.

12 hours ago, Meta77 said:

I just want eggman to be a threat like in sa and sa2.

Besides ads in japan defintally should not be used to judge a games content.  cough link dance...there was no dancing in loz

On whose authority do you say that?

[Harkofthewaa]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

So, how Ian Flynn wrote him preboot

 

I never got an opportunity to read the comics, but yeah, pretty much that.

[Meta77]

5 hours ago, GuyWithThePie said:

This is a joke, right? That "Sonic Man of the Year" thing was never meant to be an ad.

EDF! EDF!

This game is about getting smacked and chewed around by ants. Ad from japan

I do love you japan

[Almar]

You still haven't showed you have the authority to ignore it.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

You haven't the authority to demand some magical entry criteria from anyone who would look past letting promotional material determine their impression of a game.

[DabigRG]

8 hours ago, Meta77 said:

EDF! EDF!

This game is about getting smacked and chewed around by ants. Ad from japan

 

[Almar]

10 hours ago, Shaddy the guy said:

You haven't the authority to demand some magical entry criteria from anyone who would look past letting promotional material determine their impression of a game.

You haven't demonstrated the animation isn't considered canonical by Sega of Japan. Sonic wasn't designed as an edgelord series. I don't see what's hard about it.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I mean, you can't prove that the 1992 manga where Sonic is a caveman isn't canon because they haven't explicitly said it isn't. Doesn't seem to be much of a reason to say some little cartoon from Sonic Jam counts any more.

Heck, that manga had Amy and Charmy in it more than a year before either was introduced. Even if it's not canon, it's more canon than another non-canon thing.

[RedFox99]

So, can we talk about how the other characters get less done in 6 months than the Sonic's and Avatar do in less than 3 days? Do you feel there might be an explanation for this other than the writers thinking that Sonic's friends are ineffective without him around?

[Salamander]

It wouldn't surprise me if the timeskip was a comparatively late addition to the plot, or at least a poorly-thought-out one, since the plot would be no different if it was six hours rather than six months.  Actually, the timeskip text says "Within months" (which... technically could just be six hours, I guess), but then Espio specifically says "six months" in the following cutscene, so it's not even clear that the writers always knew exactly how long the timeskip should be.

[RedFox99]

7 minutes ago, FFWF said:

It wouldn't surprise me if the timeskip was a comparatively late addition to the plot, or at least a poorly-thought-out one, since the plot would be no different if it was six hours rather than six months.  Actually, the timeskip text says "Within months" (which... technically could just be six hours, I guess), but then Espio specifically says "six months" in the following cutscene, so it's not even clear that the writers always knew exactly how long the timeskip should be.

It probably depends on the Japanese version since the English dub added some other stuff like the torture line.

[DabigRG]

8 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

So, can we talk about how the other characters get less done in 6 months than the Sonic's and Avatar do in less than 3 days? Do you feel there might be an explanation for this other than the writers thinking that Sonic's friends are ineffective without him around?

Technically, the game took place over around 4 days, but whatever.

Yeah, I'm somewhat assuming that's something that wasn't in the original Japanese script. Granted, Eggman wrecking everyone's shit and rebuilding the Death Egg definitely would've taken some time, but this is a guy who tends to have multiple bases, factories, and military strikes going at once.

On some level, I can understand the idea that Buddy, Sonic, and to an extent Classic Sonic really turned things around since all but one level was about finding where Sonic was, breaking him out, and then various efforts to take back territory, destroy Eggman's forces, and disable his powersources. Plus, with Shadow and Omega seemingly being stuck under Infinite's power for quite a while(before Sonic became an unknown, even), they didn't have the super speedy MVPs they normally have and with Eggman and Infinite constantly cranking out Badniks and SuperBadniks, they didn't stand too much of a chance.

Though I do question the fact that Silver was present before Eggman had Infinite ready to go and was helping Knuckles organize the Resistance the entire time. Like, I know he apparently has some limits and fatigue periods regarding his powers, but shouldn't he have still been capable of making a dent in Eggman's conquest movements?

[Razule]

49 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Plus, with Shadow and Omega seemingly being stuck under Infinite's power for quite a while

Nah, we still have no idea what Shadow was doing during that time.

[DabigRG]

4 minutes ago, Razule said:

Nah, we still have no idea what Shadow was doing during that time.

Well, it'd be a better explanation than nothing.

[Multikaris]

On 12/6/2017 at 2:05 PM, Almar said:

You haven't demonstrated the animation isn't considered canonical by Sega of Japan. Sonic wasn't designed as an edgelord series. I don't see what's hard about it.

Can you demonstrate that those two animation shorts ARE canonical? 

[Swing]

21 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

So, can we talk about how the other characters get less done in 6 months than the Sonic's and Avatar do in less than 3 days? Do you feel there might be an explanation for this other than the writers thinking that Sonic's friends are ineffective without him around?

There is no explanation for that. Most of the characters were only created to serve as a new gimmick on the box art. The whole series could actually worked pretty fine with out all of Sonic friends.