Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[dbzfan7]

22 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Well if they were unaware that Tails didn't used to be and thus shouldn't be a useless cowardly character all the time, they obviously never even looked at the older games to see how he was portrayed back then, or they did but just decided to completely ignore it. So either they are not aware of the past games at all, or just doesn't give a rats ass about it and just do whatever they see fit, even if it goes completely against the previous games.

Pick which one is the better option.

So if they are not even aware of the important things, they are obviously clueless about the small things.

I go with the don't care option as probably what it is. Or perhaps the non playable = can't really do anything which really is par for the course for most NPCs.

8 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Or pre-2008, perhaps, since Unleashed was a clear attempt to separate the series from the disaster that was '06. It even established everyone's least favorite character trait (so maybe we can stop pretending that every decision we don't like is due to Pontac and Graff? Yes? Maybe? Probably not.)

Well that and Sonic X honestly as the ring handy man. On it's own it's not even that bad of a scene. Could have been done better sure, but without a redemption arc you basically just get a low moment with no high moment to balance it out. Luigi's cowardly antics work because he's adorkable, scared, and yet will overcome said fears and push himself through. Which is why a lot prefer him to Mario, including myself. He can have many low points, especially in the RPG's, but he always has high points to off set the low points.

6 hours ago, Razule said:

That line was added by Pontaff though, in the Japanese version, Silver just said Tails was missing. And prior, he did just cower against average robots before Sonic was even out of commission. 

I don't see the point in trying to excuse it. He was scared, fine. He did the same in Unleashed, yeah, so it's not just Pontaff, yes. But it isn't just him being scared, or showing new "layers" to his character, he's just a wimp now. 

You're right that comparing it to the Adventures is pointless because it's clearly a different interpretation of the character, but it's.. sure not a very likable one IMO

Agreed. He's made way too useless and less likable. A coward on it's own is not an interesting or fun character. They can be rarely, but often they're just annoying and get in the way. Dave the Barbarian is probably one of my favourite cowardly characters as he's so damn strong he probably could solve most problems with his might, but he's such a wimp and scaredy cat it's hilarious. Though he will stand up at the most dire of moments. He's probably more cowardly than Luigi.

6 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Personally speaking, the fact that it doesn't match up to SA1 or SA2 doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that it's shitty from the outset - from Tails cowering in Unleashed, to Sonic shoving him into an elevator in Colours, to just being a a tech guy in Colours and Generations, to watching Sonic get beaten in Forces and to finally cowering in the face of Chaos in the same game. I found fault with all of these moments and have expressed them thusly over the years. The issue is that Tails character isn't bringing the same qualities to the table anymore. His entire relationship with Sonic and what he's capable of have changed for the worse. He's less interesting and also incredibly annoying.

If Tails had been doing more than just cowering at the sight of Eggman and watching Sonic get beaten at the beginning of Forces, I'd be much more lenient on the scenes that followed. If he lost confidence in himself at the same time he physically lost Sonic, it would really lend a bit of strength to him "losing it". Likewise if he actually did anything in more recent preceeding games. But he just doesn't anymore. So when he behaves the way that he does I in Forces, it had very little impact and instead just feels like yet more poor handling of his character.

Kinda wish they worked the Phantom Ruby into the situation and somehow had Tails believing he was the reason that Sonic fell in that fight. Ick.. Is there any part of Forces' story that was actually handled well?

The former bothers me, but the latter more so. Outside of Lost World I enjoyed some of the character personality he was being given which felt like a natural evolution for him, but the rest that he's been saddled with just ruins it. Not to mention it offers nothing beyond an excuse for Sonic to save him. It's not charming or entertaining, it's annoying. Not Mario has to always save Peach annoying, but it could one day get that annoying. It's more offensive with the illussion of being useful is trying to be waved in front as some distraction, when the smoke and mirrors are easily seen through.

I find him quitting to be the literal worst and least interesting path to go on. It did nothing for his character, and is tossed aside immediately. If anything I'd be more interested in him trying to keep the Sonic Spirit alive and try and fill the gap Sonic left til they save him. Or maybe like Gohan become aware of his recent short comings, and work to fix them rather than just be a constant liability.

Um....uh.....They cast a buttery voice for Infinite....which uh....kinda helps soothe the pain...somewhat....maybe a little.

[Tarnish]

4 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Isn't Sonic always banging on about friendship?

Ah, friendship. Spending more time with a total stranger you know nothing about than you do with your actual friends you've known for years.

[JezMM]

Isn't it heavily implied that Sonic is doing a bunch of stuff with the other characters during the Classic and Avatar stages, just as like, all the characters are?

I know the fact is we want to SEE that stuff but it's not like Sonic is acting out of character or anything by only having meaningful interactions on-camera with the avatar.

[RedFox99]

16 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Isn't it heavily implied that Sonic is doing a bunch of stuff with the other characters during the Classic and Avatar stages, just as like, all the characters are?

I know the fact is we want to SEE that stuff but it's not like Sonic is acting out of character or anything by only having meaningful interactions on-camera with the avatar.

Where was that? I guess people don't like that most of the characters' actions are told only.

[ShadowSJG]

How would you fix Shadow, Chaos, Zavok and Metal Sonic's roles?

Also on the side, does anyone think the Avatar is kind of a gary stu.

[goku262002]

41 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

How would you fix Shadow, Chaos, Zavok and Metal Sonic's roles?

Also on the side, does anyone think the Avatar is kind of a gary stu.

What character isn't a gary/mary stu in these CaC games? in Dragonball Xenoverse, you're basically a being of legend that can go up against saiyans, demons, and gods without much issue.

In Forces, your a being who can be basically on par with Sonic in terms of abilities even though you just started this shit.

CaC's can be whatever they want to be in terms of power because in the broad scope they are non-existent characters, much like filler characters in anime they can do whatever the fuck the main character does then fly off to non-canon land and never be spoken about again.

We're not gonna be seeing or hearing much of Buddy The ____ after this, if ever again. SEGA could've already Poochie'd him/her for all we know.

[Razule]

1 minute ago, goku262002 said:

In Forces, your a being who can be basically on par with Sonic in terms of abilities even though you just started this shit.

To be fair, that's basically every character besides Sonic

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 hour ago, ShadowSJG said:

Also on the side, does anyone think the Avatar is kind of a gary stu.

not really. no one really goes out of their way to praise the avatar or let him/her get away with anything. i mean the avatar is called a rookie for most of the game and is said to "not look like much". so they kinda doubt the avatar at first

[kalion]

1 hour ago, goku262002 said:

What character isn't a gary/mary stu in these CaC games? in Dragonball Xenoverse, you're basically a being of legend that can go up against saiyans, demons, and gods without much issue.

In Forces, your a being who can be basically on par with Sonic in terms of abilities even though you just started this shit.

CaC's can be whatever they want to be in terms of power because in the broad scope they are non-existent characters, much like filler characters in anime they can do whatever the fuck the main character does then fly off to non-canon land and never be spoken about again.

We're not gonna be seeing or hearing much of Buddy The ____ after this, if ever again. SEGA could've already Poochie'd him/her for all we know.

What's a CaC?

[Sonictrainer]

5 minutes ago, kalion said:

What's a CaC?

Create a Character

[DiamondX]

My least favourite thing about Forces is the levels/zones. 

The story is about Eggman conquering 99% of the word. But what is that world?

-A hill (Green Hill)

-A random city (...City)

-A forest (Mystic Jungle)

-A city BUILT BY EGGMAN (Metropolis)

-Some factories BUILT BY EGGMAN (Chemical Plant)

-EGGMAN'S HOME (Eggman Empire Tower)

 

First of all, 3 of these were made by Eggman. Does thst mean brforr that the world was only Grren Hill, Mystic Jungle, City and nothingness?

Green Hill isn't even that big. It barely takes Sonic time before he gets to the City.

I think having another level instead of the Death Egg would've helped.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

2 minutes ago, SSJ Purpura DimaondX said:

My least favourite thing about Forces is the levels/zones. 

The story is about Eggman conquering 99% of the word. But what is that world?

-A hill (Green Hill)

-A random city (...City)

-A forest (Mystic Jungle)

-A city BUILT BY EGGMAN (Metropolis)

-Some factories BUILT BY EGGMAN (Chemical Plant)

-EGGMAN'S HOME (Eggman Empire Tower)

 

First of all, 3 of these were made by Eggman. Does thst mean brforr that the world was only Grren Hill, Mystic Jungle, City and nothingness?

Green Hill isn't even that big. It barely takes Sonic time before he gets to the City.

I think having another level instead of the Death Egg would've helped.

I think seaside hill was mentioned off screen somewhere. Was never gonna be a level though.

[DiamondX]

37 minutes ago, A Checker KING heavy engin said:

I think seaside hill was mentioned off screen somewhere. Was never gonna be a level though.

You're right. DLC material?

[RedFox99]

11 hours ago, goku262002 said:

We're not gonna be seeing or hearing much of Buddy The ____ after this, if ever again. SEGA could've already Poochie'd him/her for all we know.

Which is partly why I don't think it was a good idea to have a CaC be a main character for a game like Forces, especially because I can kind of see how the other characters get less focus.

[goku262002]

13 hours ago, Razule said:

To be fair, that's basically every character besides Sonic

Yeah, but their was always a reason to it when a character was introduced. Shadow being a genetically modified alien hybrid, Blaze a flame wielding princess with years of training, Knuckles a super strong guardian, etc. etc.

The CaC just gets a wispon and a web slinger & suddenly can be on par with sonic the hedgehog, which keep in mind him and his friends are treated as legendary heroes in Sonic's universe something akin to the Justice League.

[JezMM]

14 hours ago, ShadowSJG said:

How would you fix Shadow, Chaos, Zavok and Metal Sonic's roles?

Also on the side, does anyone think the Avatar is kind of a gary stu.

Let us fight them, it really was as simple as that.  Literally all I expected from the trailer was that we'd get a throwback boss fight with each one.  Zavok and Metal Sonic were absolutely fine.

And... yeah of course the Avatar is a Gary/Mary Sue, what else could they do with them?  They're meant to be a main character, having Sonic NOT become friends with them or having them do unsubstantial side objectives would be incredibly lame considering the avatar is a focal point of the game.

[MysteriousGirl 92]

On 12/29/2017 at 11:36 AM, RedFox99 said:

So, can we talk about how the other characters get less done in 6 months than the Sonic's and Avatar do in less than 3 days? Do you feel there might be an explanation for this other than the writers thinking that Sonic's friends are ineffective without him around?

Because the writers wanted the three main heroes to stand out.

I'm surprised that Tails, Knuckles and Shadow got off scot-free in Forces. No one scolded Tails for his actions, no one objected to Knuckles' plan to attack Eggman's army in Metropolis, nor did they blame him for causing the deaths of many soldiers, and no one blamed Shadow for a creating a monster that helped Eggman take over the world.

Anyone agree?

[RedFox99]

Just now, MysteriousGirl 92 said:

I'm surprised that Tails, Knuckles and Shadow got off scot-free in Forces. No one scolded Tails for his actions, no one objected to Knuckles' plan to attack Eggman's army in Metropolis, nor did they blame him for causing the deaths of many soldiers, and no one blamed Shadow for a creating a monster that helped Eggman take over the world.

Well in the case of Shadow, probably no one knew about it. It's not even mentioned in the main story, but in Knuckles' defense, apparently, he didn't know that Infinite would be there. Tails... yeah, he's a victim of questionable writing decisions.

[MysteriousGirl 92]

1 hour ago, RedFox99 said:

in Knuckles' defense, apparently, he didn't know that Infinite would be there.

Well, someone could have told him that a full frontal assault would be a bad idea.

It's all explained here under Sonic Forces (look at the last bullet point): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WhatAnIdiot/SonicTheHedgehog

[Shadowlax]

3 hours ago, MysteriousGirl 92 said:

Because the writers wanted the three main heroes to stand out.

I'm surprised that Tails, Knuckles and Shadow got off scot-free in Forces. No one scolded Tails for his actions, no one objected to Knuckles' plan to attack Eggman's army in Metropolis, nor did they blame him for causing the deaths of many soldiers, and no one blamed Shadow for a creating a monster that helped Eggman take over the world.

Anyone agree?

Shadow is responsible for doing his job. Shadow is also not responsible for infinite being insecure little shit, whilst trying to attack and harm people and working for a super villain. If shadow had went off of infinite and infinite was just some guy who worked at the local whole foods. Shadow would look like a dick, but infinite is a merc who's hired to hurt people who is hired by a super villain to protect his shit and hurt people. No one cares about your feelings then, bonus IIRC I don't think shadow ever calls him weak actually. He just says hes pathetic and don't follow him 

On 12/29/2017 at 6:36 AM, RedFox99 said:

So, can we talk about how the other characters get less done in 6 months than the Sonic's and Avatar do in less than 3 days? Do you feel there might be an explanation for this other than the writers thinking that Sonic's friends are ineffective without him around?

Reminder Shadow literally did nothing, until he was bothered enough to help people. And rouge didn't care enough about shadow, or the group or both to let them know if she knew that shadow was alive and fine. And she didn't pick up omega' s body for months after he got destroyed event though they could have went out and got him at anytime.

Reminder that team dark shouldn't be a team because the two other team characters agency is only relevant if shadow is around. 

[MysteriousGirl 92]

11 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

If shadow had went off of infinite and infinite was just some guy

I'm not saying Shadow should have killed Infinite. Shadow didn't have to kill the Jackal Squad (he could have knocked them out) or call Infinite 'worthless' and 'pathetic' (then again, Infinite shouldn't have taken it to heart).

[superman43]

Guys, what do you think... Would be Forces better if instead of Classic Sonic and Avatar Tails and Knuckles were used ? Or possibly more of the cast ?

I mean, I know there are some people that like the Avatar, but could that earn higher credit from critics and the audience if used well ? Sure, Sonic Team doesn´t do well in most cases.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, MysteriousGirl 92 said:

I'm not saying Shadow should have killed Infinite. Shadow didn't have to kill the Jackal Squad (he could have knocked them out) or call Infinite 'worthless' and 'pathetic' (then again, Infinite shouldn't have taken it to heart).

1) We have no idea if he killed the squad. 

2) If he did, given shadow murdering folks seems to be his last resort, we don't know if they were trying to kill him. 

3)Infinite tried to attack him from behind, and infinite is a sellsword who is working for one of the most dangerous people in the world. You have earned an insult, shadow didn't loose his mind when sonic called him a faker. Granted not everyone take insults the same, that said if you are in the line of work infinite is in. You should be able to take a couple hits and an insult

 

[RedFox99]

19 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Reminder Shadow literally did nothing, until he was bothered enough to help people. And rouge didn't care enough about shadow, or the group or both to let them know if she knew that shadow was alive and fine. And she didn't pick up omega' s body for months after he got destroyed event though they could have went out and got him at anytime.

Reminder that team dark shouldn't be a team because the two other team characters agency is only relevant if shadow is around. 

Yeah, Team Dark didn't seem to be all that helpful for most of the story. It's kind of sad how useless they made Rouge.

[Almar]

Team Dark is in an awkard position. They were invented for Sonic Adventure 2's duality/rivalry motif (although, listed pre-release info mentioned that the game would have just had you play as Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman) and since there was already Team Sonic/Hero there would have to be a Team Dark to counter them. Team Dark came back in Heroes absent Eggman for the team gimmick, Rouge and Omega popped in games after Heroes helping Shadow (if not as a team) up until 06. Shadow's more or a less stand-up hedgehog now who's a friendly (if grumpy) rival at worst, yet apparently Sonic Team and Archie Sonic still insists on having Rouge and Omega follow Shadow around even though they need him to be close to relevant way more than he needs them.