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Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

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21 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

There is nothing wrong for making Sonic games cater to more casual. There is nothing wrong for people that love it. Izuka did that for Heroes. It's when you realize that the content the game presents is reused, restricts itself more than ever before and isolates the people that buy their games, it will cause some issues. Maybe major ones. And if Sega sees that this is the biggest way to receive revenue, what will that mean for the Series? Further more, Kishimoto and Nakumura clearly don't understand/and or what to make games cater to Sonic's character.

I'm fine with Sega doing this if they need to increase in sales. It's not a bad move at all to try and divide and conquer to flesh it out. But take out the current guys in charge and find someone else who can do both rather ignore the fans for a subsequent amount of time.

There has been. I agree it's a little negative but most of the users here have given good reasoning and don't blindingly hate it or love it. 

Oh no, there is definitely a lot of room for improvement. Unleashed still sits as my favorite Sonic game. I am not saying they don't need to change directors/workers, because they should. Ever since Generations, Sonic has been pretty meh.  Even Generations to me, while fun, didn't fill my cup. I enjoyed it, but I still go back to Unleashed way more than Generations, as good of a game it is. Though as I said, even if this game sells well, it doesn't mean they will just sit and do the same exact thing. There will come a time where if they make a couple games that feel the exact same, they will continue to get a lot more complaints if it stays the exact same and not trying to improve, despite sales going up.

I am not saying all complaints are not valid either, I can see where they are coming from. But maybe I just have lower standards than most.

Side Note: I was told I was insane for thinking Sonic Mania isn't the best Sonic game since slice bread. I played and enjoyed it, but once again it only satisfied me for only a few hours. I guess I was never a huge fan of 2D Sonic, but it's not a game I will be going back to again and again for a few months. Doing daily challenges, going for S ranks on every level, and all those collectibles will keep me playing for a couple months in Forces.

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1 hour ago, Gabz Girl said:

Ohhh I see! I haven’t seen that gameplay yet, just the bosses and cutscenes. ^^;;; Still sucks though, looks so cool without QTE shit. 

Yeah we'll chalk up another one to Why the hell can't I play the only interesting part of this stage?

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I'm starting to think this game really could've been Heroes 2 if the developers wanted it to be. The game's theming of bonds and teamwork conquering all matches pretty dang well with Heroes and the game ends with what was essentially a Team Blast. Other characters could have been made playable to form teams, making them more proactive in the story as a result and it could have all been in one core gameplay style. Ah well, a guy can dream.

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12 minutes ago, DawningWolf said:

Oh no, there is definitely a lot of room for improvement. Unleashed still sits as my favorite Sonic game. I am not saying they don't need to change directors/workers, because they should. Ever since Generations, Sonic has been pretty meh.  Even Generations to me, while fun, didn't fill my cup. I enjoyed it, but I still go back to Unleashed way more than Generations, as good of a game it is. Though as I said, even if this game sells well, it doesn't mean they will just sit and do the same exact thing. There will come a time where if they make a couple games that feel the exact same, they will continue to get a lot more complaints if it stays the exact same and not trying to improve, despite sales going up.

I am not saying all complaints are not valid either, I can see where they are coming from. But maybe I just have lower standards than most.

Side Note: I was told I was insane for thinking Sonic Mania isn't the best Sonic game since slice bread. I played and enjoyed it, but once again it only satisfied me for only a few hours. I guess I was never a huge fan of 2D Sonic, but it's not a game I will be going back to again and again for a few months. Doing daily challenges, going for S ranks on every level, and all those collectibles will keep me playing for a couple months in Forces.

Ehhh...I've played so many fan games and classics game that Mania didn't fill my cup either so I understand.  Amazing for Sega to invested in competent fans unlike "NINTENDONT" though. 

I did hear that Taxman wanted to remake Sonic 3(have no idea what he'd do to it). Almost wished he did that because that would have made the fanbase orgasm out of existence. 

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Nintendo don't need to hire fans. They just released two of the best video games ever made in less than one year.

1 hour ago, Chris said:

Just want to make it perfectly clear here: posting of the Sonic cycle - in any way, shape or form - will get you a swift suspension. You might think you're being funny, but you're being an asshole. This is also mentioned in my previous posts regarding Forces and in the pinned rules topic in this forum.

In addition, I'd like to thank those of you who are sending in reports. This is a very busy time for us and the help is appreciated. We're hoping to keep the atmosphere under control despite the varied reception of Forces so far among the fanbase.

Oh man. I wasn't aware such a thing was actually a banned action. I could go into contextualising my usage—that it's actually seriously how I've been feeling about the game for months, and that it seems to embody the exact problem with the fandom that encouraged SEGA to produce it in that fashion—but I'd be better off just asking how long suspension lasts.

 

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33 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What's soulless is Sonic Team's take on their own character. Like, shit, I read/watch plenty of shonen action stuff, from guilty pleasures to stuff I legit, unironically love. But Sonic, when they're trying to make him "serious", is the most boring fucking shonen hero ever. They don't have the balls to actually do anything with him. He shows up, he homing attacks some things, he acts real nice and friendly to good people, and that's it. No flaws or rough edges, no attitude, no pushing the envelope. No amount of being serious is going to help if the writers have no interest in challenging the character or even giving him a decent personality.

Now Pontac and Graff, they're not perfect. Their work on the series is far from perfect. And I'm not saying there's no one out there who can do the job better. But they actually bring something fresh to the series, after years of Sonic Team's stale bread interpretation. They brought back some of that cocky little asshole that made Sonic interesting in the first place, the kind of guy who doesn't "take things seriously" because villains don't deserve to be taken seriously, they deserve to be taken down a peg verbally as well as physically. The kind of guy who can joke around under pressure because that's when he's at his best. The kind of guy who can crack jokes and have fun and maybe be kind of a dork but he's still cool because he's comfortable with and confident in himself and isn't just trying to be cool. And again, their writing hasn't been perfect, there's been some real lame lines and some jokes that didn't land, but I'd much rather see more from people who are trying to make Sonic an interesting character than from people who are content with writing him as a very dull hero.

So uh....you do realize they only did the localization this time right? The original script was written by Sonic Team. Which is probably why some of Sonic's lines hit this time. Just saying.

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3 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

So uh....you do realize they only did the localization this time right? The original script was written by Sonic Team. Which is probably why some of Sonic's lines hit this time. Just saying.

This isn't very clear. Sonic's lines in Forces definitely don't sound like the Sonic the Japanese writers have written before, even at his most cocky...in Shadow the Hedgehog. Even then, Sonic still takes things very seriously at some point, no jokes round...he never really does that in Forces.

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1 hour ago, LongcrierCat said:

That's all that bothered me. It was never the criticism it was the hyperbolic attitude and sometimes just flat out "It's shit lol" responses. 

Let's not pretend this attitude wasn't on both sides. There was just as much those going "lol whatever" towards when people criticizing the game brought up a problem.

and the "haters" I've seen(including me) have brung up positives, so I don't see why we're still being treated like we don't acknowledge other stuff about the game.

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It's the fault of Nakamura and Sonic Team for the story. They're responsible for what sounds like one trainwreck of a plot. However, it's Pontaff who localized the script. So honestly, the dialogue is on them. No way "true dat" is something other than Pontaff wrote. 

I was really hoping for a Sonic Team story that amounted to something and a script that didn't reek of Pontaff. Thanks for letting me down again, Forces. 

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4 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

So uh....you do realize they only did the localization this time right? The original script was written by Sonic Team. Which is probably why some of Sonic's lines hit this time. Just saying.

To me, what lands in this game is the stuff most in line with Pontac and Graff's style of dialogue, the stuff where Sonic's being a cocky, jokey little shit, like when he catches up with Infinite after his jungle stage. The stuff that doesn't is, for one example, when he's super jazzed about teamwork and friendship, and given the series' history I feel like that part is Sonic Team's style showing through.

And I'm not just praising them for their work in Forces; while Colors and Lost World's stories are not great overall I think they did a lot to shake the characters out of the rut Sonic Team had put them in. I still say Lost World has a better Sonic than most games in the series.

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38 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What's soulless is Sonic Team's take on their own character. Like, shit, I read/watch plenty of shonen action stuff, from guilty pleasures to stuff I legit, unironically love. But Sonic, when they're trying to make him "serious", is the most boring fucking shonen hero ever. They don't have the balls to actually do anything with him. He shows up, he homing attacks some things, he acts real nice and friendly to good people, and that's it. No flaws or rough edges, no attitude, no pushing the envelope. No amount of being serious is going to help if the writers have no interest in challenging the character or even giving him a decent personality.

Now Pontac and Graff, they're not perfect. Their work on the series is far from perfect. And I'm not saying there's no one out there who can do the job better. But they actually bring something fresh to the series, after years of Sonic Team's stale bread interpretation. They brought back some of that cocky little asshole that made Sonic interesting in the first place, the kind of guy who doesn't "take things seriously" because villains don't deserve to be taken seriously, they deserve to be taken down a peg verbally as well as physically. The kind of guy who can joke around under pressure because that's when he's at his best. The kind of guy who can crack jokes and have fun and maybe be kind of a dork but he's still cool because he's comfortable with and confident in himself and isn't just trying to be cool. And again, their writing hasn't been perfect, there's been some real lame lines and some jokes that didn't land, but I'd much rather see more from people who are trying to make Sonic an interesting character than from people who are content with writing him as a very dull hero.

I don't think they do that at all though, Ian does that in the comics. Game sonic's just kind of lame trying to be funny. And villains don't deserve to be taken seriously, i'm not gonna rant, but that's a reductionist way of looking at story telling.

Plinkett Voice: especially considering the most popular non main character is super popular because he took what he does and other characters do seriously and other characters took him seriously. Its almost as if people like that, its almost as if you joke all the time, you take way any feeling of suspense and the villain you are dealing with never actually gets to feel threatening at all. And when characters time again take their scenarios and foes seriously it not only makes the villain look super cool. Like you know that super popular black and red guy who's still around because of that, but it allows them and their plans to be taken in such a way that allows for exclamation of plot , and creation of excitement that engages the viewer. Constant bombardment of jokes does let you take your character or anything they are doing seriously. Take spiderman for example, before deadpool one of the kingpins of making jokes , but the reason people spiderman is because this is juxtaposed with him actually being a very serious character, sometimes he gets mad, super mad so mad he considers breaking his rules, sometimes he fails and is sad , sometimes he's a dork as doofus, he feels a wide range of emotions, not just joke ass joke. Pontaff and Graff whether it be by their restrictions due to them merely translating or their own hand never communicate this, nothing feels like it has weight or like i'm achieving something. Super mario oddessy, one of the silliest game I've played this week does this and mario doesn't even talk and communicate this through facial expressions. And somehow with the power of words pontaff and graff never achieved this. 

Ian flynn however achieves this all the time, the sonic comic is some of the legit funniest sonic material that has come out in recent years because the people who wrote it in its later portions understood that when you have serious moments, jokes are appropriated. The reason that weird ass tournament arc is so beloved because it was in the middle of the slog that was the werehog arc. But that's another rant, to close I think you are describing a level of writing those two never achieve. And I think your views on what should be taken seriously , or not rather  , is a very stale and common nowadays taken on media replace writing something compelling with being funny, and it ends up being neither.

20 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

So uh....you do realize they only did the localization this time right? The original script was written by Sonic Team. Which is probably why some of Sonic's lines hit this time. Just saying.

also this

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7 minutes ago, DoubleXXCross said:

Nintendo don't need to hire fans. They just released two of the best video games ever made in less than one year.

I think I understand what he means. Unlike Sega, Nintendo doesn't want to create bonds with their fanbase, but destroy them. They are very strict with fan works and even non-profitable games like AMR2 get shot down.

Sega isn't a saint and, like any company, does a lot of dirty or stupid crap, but if there's one thing I have to give credit to them is being open with the Sonic fanbase. 

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"And those eyes.. I feel like we've met before."

This line still doesn't make any sense. He already acknowledged he met the Avatar before. Maybe it's RoL a type deal with the story being rewritten for whatever reason late, but lines that now have no context make it in anyway.

Maybe he really was supposed to be the Avatar's friend at one point.

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4 minutes ago, Razule said:

"And those eyes.. I feel like we've met before."

This line still doesn't make any sense. He already acknowledged he met the Avatar before. Maybe it's RoL a type deal with the story being rewritten for whatever reason late, but lines that now have no context make it in anyway.

Maybe he really was supposed to be the Avatar's friend at one point.

This is something that should be explained in the Shadow DLC or the comic. If we still get nothing in there about this strange line of dialogue then you can bet it’s an abandoned plot point, which would suck big time.

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13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

To me, what lands in this game is the stuff most in line with Pontac and Graff's style of dialogue, the stuff where Sonic's being a cocky, jokey little shit, like when he catches up with Infinite after his jungle stage. The stuff that doesn't is, for one example, when he's super jazzed about teamwork and friendship, and given the series' history I feel like that part is Sonic Team's style showing through.

And I'm not just praising them for their work in Forces; while Colors and Lost World's stories are not great overall I think they did a lot to shake the characters out of the rut Sonic Team had put them in. I still say Lost World has a better Sonic than most games in the series.

I felt like this game was a good balance of both, because under Sonic Team...Sonic actually..ya know...DOES things. I agree that Pongraff have some good lines here and there, but their writing relies too much on showing and not telling, which is aggravating as hell when there are times that I simply want Sonic to stfu and get in someone's face. Which is what he did in Forces, which makes the more...questionable lines, hit. 

Because I really don't mind Pongraff that much, it's more rather I just hated how there was just so much dialogue and not enough action. And no, I still disagree about Lost World, that game is still trash lol.

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10 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think they do that at all though, Ian does that in the comics. Game sonic's just kind of lame trying to be funny. And villains don't deserve to be taken seriously, i'm not gonna rant, but that's a reductionist way of looking at story telling.

Plinkett Voice: especially considering the most popular non main character is super popular because he took what he does and other characters do seriously and other characters took him seriously. Its almost as if people like that, its almost as if you joke all the time, you take way any feeling of suspense and the villain you are dealing with never actually gets to feel threatening at all. And when characters time again take their scenarios and foes seriously it not only makes the villain look super cool. Like you know that super popular black and red guy who's still around because of that, but it allows them and their plans to be taken in such a way that allows for exclamation of plot , and creation of excitement that engages the viewer. Constant bombardment of jokes does let you take your character or anything they are doing seriously. Take spiderman for example, before deadpool one of the kingpins of making jokes , but the reason people spiderman is because this is juxtaposed with him actually being a very serious character, sometimes he gets mad, super mad so mad he considers breaking his rules, sometimes he fails and is sad , sometimes he's a dork as doofus, he feels a wide range of emotions, not just joke ass joke. Pontaff and Graff whether it be by their restrictions due to them merely translating or their own hand never communicate this, nothing feels like it has weight or like i'm achieving something. Super mario oddessy, one of the silliest game I've played this week does this and mario doesn't even talk and communicate this through facial expressions. And somehow with the power of words pontaff and graff never achieved this. 

Ian flynn however achieves this all the time, the sonic comic is some of the legit funniest sonic material that has come out in recent years because the people who wrote it in its later portions understood that when you have serious moments, jokes are appropriated. The reason that weird ass tournament arc is so beloved because it was in the middle of the slog that was the werehog arc. But that's another rant, to close I think you are describing a level of writing those two never achieve. And I think your views on what should be taken seriously , or not rather  , is a very stale and common nowadays taken on media replace writing something compelling with being funny, and it ends up being neither.

also this

Spider-Man is way more than just a cocky superhero. His cockiness is basically a way to not only throw off his enemies, but to keep him from freaking out and being scared. That's why he does it. Also there's a reason "Parker Luck" is a thing. Because of how bad an unlucky his life is a lot of the time. Sonic doesn't have anything close to that. He just makes shite jokes because he actually believes he's that funny now a days. I may not like Colours but Eggman had better jokes than Sonic, and Sonic had no right telling Eggman he had shit jokes. Sonic's were much worse.

Also I believe in regard to your other post, the creators of Zootopia I believe said something like that along the lines of "If the characters don't care about what's going on, then why should we?" That was the biggest crutch for the Pontaff era for me. The serious moments are so brief and no one really takes things that seriously for long. And even when they do, nothing is really learned or grown, and the moral is completely wrong as seen in Lost World.

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I felt like this game was a good balance of both, because under Sonic Team...Sonic actually..ya know...DOES things. I agree that Pongraff have some good lines here and there, but their writing relies too much on showing and not telling, which is aggravating as hell when there are times that I simply want Sonic to stfu and get in someone's face. Which is what he did in Forces, which makes the more...questionable lines, hit. 

Because I really don't mind Pongraff that much, it's more rather I just hated how there was just so much dialogue and not enough action. And no, I still disagree about Lost World, that game is still trash lol.

Telling, not showing.

But again Sonic games never had much action in cutscenes, Forces is the first time anyone actually "acted" in a scene before game-play starts. Scenes were also shorter in other games.

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8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

And villains don't deserve to be taken seriously, i'm not gonna rant, but that's a reductionist way of looking at story telling.

Plinkett Voice: especially considering the most popular non main character is super popular because he took what he does and other characters do seriously and other characters took him seriously. Its almost as if people like that, its almost as if you joke all the time, you take way any feeling of suspense and the villain you are dealing with never actually gets to feel threatening at all. And when characters time again take their scenarios and foes seriously it not only makes the villain look super cool.

Okay we're both aware that the series' main villain is a guy named Dr. Eggman, right? You're not supposed to take everything all that seriously.

8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Constant bombardment of jokes does let you take your character or anything they are doing seriously. Take spiderman for example, before deadpool one of the kingpins of making jokes , but the reason people spiderman is because this is juxtaposed with him actually being a very serious character, sometimes he gets mad, super mad so mad he considers breaking his rules, sometimes he fails and is sad , sometimes he's a dork as doofus, he feels a wide range of emotions, not just joke ass joke.

If you think Pontac and Graff don't let Sonic get mad or sad you haven't actually been paying attention. It's like their actual writing gets buried under a hundred memers shouting "baldy mcnosehair!" Sonic's shown more genuine emotion under their pen than he had in most of the series up to that point.

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1 hour ago, Super Mechanio said:

Clarification question: Is simply referencing fans getting hyped for new Sonic games and then being subsequently disappointed by them against the rules? Or are you specifically talking about posting image memes about it in lieu of actual discussion?

Because, whether we call it by name or not, the concept that the Sonic cycle refers to (that is, fans getting hyped and disappointed by new Sonic games over and over again) is a very real thing that a lot of members here can relate to and discuss. So, just to make sure I'm not out of line here, is that okay to discuss? I really would hope so.

Basically don't post memes and use the "Sonic Cycle" to justify having a bad attitude or mocking other users. 'Cause we're done with that.

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12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If you think Pontac and Graff don't let Sonic get mad or sad you haven't actually been paying attention. It's like their actual writing gets buried under a hundred memers shouting "baldy mcnosehair!" Sonic's shown more genuine emotion under their pen than he had in most of the series up to that point.

To add onto this, most of the poor writing decisions in this game came from Sonic Team. Sure Pontaff made Tails say "true dat," but he wasn't the one who made him cower in fear of Chaos fucking Zero. He wasn't the one who made Tails treat Classic Sonic like a surrogate Sonic and then never explore how psychologically fucked up that is. I could go on and on and on, but you get the picture. Sonic the Hedgehog is being written and designed by people who don't deserve the license. 

Here's an example of Pontaff being more creative than anyone else working on the game.

Infinite: You've been outclassed.

Sonic: I'm in a class all my own!

Imagine that kind of spark going into things like level design and story layout.

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12 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Basically don't post memes and use the "Sonic Cycle" to justify having a bad attitude or mocking other users. 'Cause we're done with that.

Gotcha. I would never mock someone, so we're in the clear.

Far from it, I sympathize with the people who feel let down by this game. Because I've been there, getting my hopes up for a new Sonic game and having it completely and totally disappoint. I know what it's like, and I know it's not fun.

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1 hour ago, DoubleXXCross said:

Nintendo don't need to hire fans. They just released two of the best video games ever made in less than one year.

Oh man. I wasn't aware such a thing was actually a banned action. I could go into contextualising my usage—that it's actually seriously how I've been feeling about the game for months, and that it seems to embody the exact problem with the fandom that encouraged SEGA to produce it in that fashion—but I'd be better off just asking how long suspension lasts.

I can't be any more clear, to be honest. I've stated the fact several times: the "Sonic Cycle" is mostly referenced surrounding arguments about game quality with people who are legitimately excited for the game. It's happened every single time we have an impending release. It isn't funny, it's not constructive and it doesn't have a place here.

Your post prompted mine but I wasn't going to take action on any that happened today. It only recently was bumped to an enforceable action because of the sheer amount of vitriol surrounding Mania and Forces related 'discussions'.

What it comes down to is this, essentially: if you can't post here without being a total asshole, don't bother posting at all.

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2 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

No faker Shadow & Chaos boss battles? Unless they are included in the Shadow DLC... Otherwise well... that's some cheap manipulative BS from a official Sonic game if I ever saw one!

 

I gotta feeling they might not be, in this game boss fights counts as stages, and shadow only gets 3 unique stages. and I doubt they are gonna make 2/3 of his stages, boss fights

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