Sonic Forces SPOILER Thread

[Waveshocker Sigma]

Okay, @Indigo Rush, I know you mean well and I mean no offense, but do you mind summing that up in about 3 lines or less?

Cause I know there's a perfectly sensible message somewhere in that book report that's very much worth hearing and understanding but there is no way in hell I'm going through all of that.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

56 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

See stuff like this is why I'm wary of the idea that "they just need fresh blood"

Granted, they're still working under Kishimoto, director of Lost World, Colors, and the storybook games, and lead game designer for the latter half

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Morio_Kishimoto

But what good is new talent if they aren't helmed by someone who knows what they're doing with the series in the first place? Or... they just flat-out aren't a good fit for Sonic?

Stuff like this only reaffirms my belief that they need fresh blood. There are actual humans working for real-life money at Sonic Team who delegated tasks this way. 

[Indigo Rush]

4 minutes ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

Okay, @Indigo Rush, I know you mean well and I mean no offense, but do you mind summing that up in about 3 lines or less?

Cause I know there's a perfectly sensible message somewhere in that book report that's very much worth hearing and understanding but there is no way in hell I'm going through all of that.

 

12 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

In summation, it doesn't look fun because it's providing little else between each visual spectacle besides one-note gameplay and repetitive challenges. We have noticed the patterns, we know who's developing the game down to their names, and it's failing to hook many of us because we've wised up to Sonic Team's playbook. Sonic Forces is going to be a blast for many of you to play through the first, maybe even the second and third time. But once you slog through every EX platforming challenge and collect everything you can, once you've watched the cutscenes enough times to burn them into your conscious like the Adventure games had for us older folk, I can't guarantee you're going to want to replay those levels once the charm has worn off.

 

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

1 hour ago, MudHunter said:

A reply

So 3 nooby level designers,?

It's not just about having 3 level designers who are new to Sonic games. Look no further to Unleashed, which most of the people working on the game were straight out of collage. It's about the direction and who's doing it. Hashimoto was a great director that lead the team to the right path and in general had a great staff who seemed to communicate well enough on how to advance Sonic's design. 

Further more; It was a well organized development from what Hashimoto and all the material I've read on World Adventure. Criticize the werehog all you want. The entirety of his existence was not a simple "throw away" gameplay. Flaws came upon it(as with most attempts to trying something new) though I deem it having the most fleshed out of alternative styles.

Forces could have also been very good if the director wasn't so aggressive on dumbing down Sonic and taking away the core aspects away from him. 

Truly I hope people don't think it's always the quantity of the designers, but also the quality and direction.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Jar Jar Analysis 1138

[dbzfan7]

16 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Spoiler

 

I'm going to try to present this as concisely as I can. But first, please look at this tiny banana:

Awesome. Feel the stress and prejudice leaving you? Wonderful! Great.

Here's why the lot of us have problems with Sonic Forces.

It does not look fun.

That's it, really. It doesn't look compelling. But why. Why are people, Sonic 'fans' in particular, shying away from this? Why are the lot of us so skeptical? What is it about Sonic Forces that makes it look 'not fun' and such?

I've played video games for many years. I'm over a quarter of a century old, and the lot of my experience comes in the form of Sonic games, 2D, 3D, and everything in between. I've been a member of these particular forums for over a decade, even. I reluctantly cannot deny that I have a strong attachment to these games. Sonic as a series has stuck with me very strongly and I've dug my way through just about every game released, new, old, good, bad, obscure, you name it, I've owned it, and if not owned it, I've probably played it, and if not that, I've at least researched it in depth. I'm a series veteran. I've seen what Sonic is capable of being and becoming. We've discussed the series' potential to extreme lengths on these forums. I'm also a member on Retro and the Sega Forums, but I digress. Point is, I've been around for a while. I've seen things I've heard things and I know things.

The problem with Sonic Forces, the reason it is making long time and seasoned fans such as myself turn away from it instinctively is because we've done this song and dance before, and we can determine based on series precedent what will happen. We understand the people who are working on the game. It's the same reason almost none of us doubted Sonic Mania's inevitable praise the moment we saw Christian Whitehead's logo pop up on the debut trailer. No one who is working on Sonic Forces is new. Setting aside the fact that a glut of us don't care for the boost gameplay style to begin with, we know who the level designer and director are. We know who's writing the script. We know what they've done before, and using our God-given eyes and intellect, we're able to deduce from the plentiful footage we've seen leading up to the release leak of this game what the rest of it would be like. The designers behind Forces are not interested in intricate and replayable level layouts, they don't care much for creating dynamic systems or physics that could result in the player's input resulting in an outcome that may not necessarily follow their scripting; which, funnily enough, is how folk like Diogenes have determined how the designers plan out these stages: in the form of a movie storyboard. See, unlike the original sidescrollers, the lot of 3D Sonic games are intended to be played as a sequence of interactive setpieces and cinematics; there's no depth beyond how quickly you can move from one scene to the next, or if you can track down a stray collectible along the way. What this is lacking in is meaningful agency for the player; it relieves the burden of navigation in lieu of pathing that elicits a sense of claustrophobia. This is where the hallway comments come from.

When you compare to other truly 3D platformers in any era (the good ones, at least), one of the key important design aspects is their intent on letting the player experiment and explore the control scheme; the joy of movement and the flow of level design work in tandem to present an experience where the player has the choice, the freedom, to interact with the world at a pace that's comfortable to them. In a successful instance, this should feel rewarding, it should allow the player, who is a human being, to feel a sense of satisfaction from discovering the world and solving challenges by the wit the good Lord has blessed them with.

Now, you may want to shrug this all off as non-applicable to Sonic. Sonic's a bloke who dashes through roller coaster worlds at high speeds, who has time to navigate the world when you're running at the speed of sound, after all? The thing is while that seems like it's the ideal  choice for a character who runs at high speed, it results in a series of levels that end up being one-note and repetitive. If you think about it, what is the fundamental difference between any of the Modern Sonic stages in Sonic Forces beyond their aesthetic? The obstacles and paths may become a little more complex as you progress throughout the story, but as far as the rest is concerned, you're doing very little other than holding the boost button when in a 3D space while jumping every so often. In 2D areas, you're not even going fast much of the time, instead relegated to navigating a series of blocks and basic platforms to progress to the next sequence. The seams in this design are very apparent, and having played and studied these Modern Sonic games for the past near decade, it's becoming very stale. Not only is there little differentiating the gameplay between stages, but these design philosophies are bleeding between each game, and all the while failing to iterate in a meaningful fashion.

The only thing that changes between them is the hook, the "gimmick" as it were, which is usually just another gameplay style or a story setup that might interest you. You know them: The Werehog, The Wisps, Classic Sonic, Classic Sonic again and also a custom character. There are also serious issues with Classic Sonic's gameplay making a reappearance; namely that the controls and mechanics fail to translate from their origin. On a surface level, it's reasonable to understand why they may not be able to get this exactly right, but especially after Sonic Generations has come and gone, it feels like a foolish decision to take a one-trick pony and ask it to impress the second go round, and considering Sonic Mania delivered the best 2D Sonic experience in decades, it feels even worse by comparison.

All that said, the issue isn't just that both of these interpretations of Sonic gameplay have become stale, it's also tantamount that they're failing to capitalize on their inherent strengths in any fashion: this is a result of the designers talent and intent in making these games. If you haven't noticed, even fans of the Boost games are crying foul at Sonic Forces' level design. On one hand, it's reasonable to concede some of these choices may be wise ones: the lack of full 3D exploration in Modern Sonic is likely a result of the designers understanding that his controls in 3D are especially cumbersome, so holding back on those areas in the Modern levels seems like a wise choice: focusing on the gameplay style's strengths. In contrast, however, not much has been done to buff these strengths, if anything they feel like they've become weaker. There's little in the way of branching paths in these levels, and nary a curve or slope in sight on a 2D plane. Classic Sonic faces this issue as well, as there's little in the way of dynamic surfaces to play with; at best we've seen some complex platforming challenges in later stages, however very few of them incorporate Sonic's momentum physics. In short, this is the source of the "blocky platforming" complaint you may be hearing.

It comes down to that. The player has little freedom to explore, because the design prohibits it. Going off the beaten path will scarcely reward you. Your goal is to make your way from setpiece to setpiece as fast as you can, and you're cursed to try anything else. In video games, fun often comes from being able to say "I figured this out," or "I accomplished this task by myself." A sense of accomplishment and reward is inherently appealing to the human mind. There's nothing to figure out in Sonic Forces, only quick reaction time and twitch gameplay... broken apart by the occasional clunky jumping challenge in 2D.

Sonic Forces is likely drawing people in with it's premise. Eggman's taken over the world, there's a new villain with a mysterious power, there's a new maguffin to learn about, there's a link between this game and Mania before it, you can create your own character, each level is like an explosive, action-packed move sequence, it's designed to appeal to someone looking for a spectacle, if not an interactive story. Otherwise, it's use of recognizable and fan-favorite characters is the draw for die-hard fans who are not going to miss out on the biggest release in the past 5 years. Sega is, and always has been, incredibly talented at drawing a crowd, subverting your expectations on a surface level and hooking you in to trying out the next Sonic game. The thing is... as fans get older, we start seeing the pattern. It's not quite the memetic Sonic Cycle, but there's absolutely a sequence of events that take place almost every time.

In summation, it doesn't look fun because it's providing little else between each visual spectacle besides one-note gameplay and repetitive challenges. We have noticed the patterns, we know who's developing the game down to their names, and it's failing to hook many of us because we've wised up to Sonic Team's playbook. Sonic Forces is going to be a blast for many of you to play through the first, maybe even the second and third time. But once you slog through every EX platforming challenge and collect everything you can, once you've watched the cutscenes enough times to burn them into your conscious like the Adventure games had for us older folk, I can't guarantee you're going to want to replay those levels once the charm has worn off.

Meanwhile... I, and many others have played through those old Genesis games time and time again. Not simply because it's what I grew up with as a youngster, but because I still discover new things even 20 years later. I find new ways to use Sonic's momentum physics to improve my skill. Each playthrough becomes different and my experience is never the exact same. The designers don't ask me to play the game the exact way they want me too, their hand is not felt strongly, they give me the freedom to take this other path, they want me to go back as a different character and go off the beaten path in multiple ways to find new ways to beat the level. I'm not being guided by a story, I'm not rushing to the end so I can skip the next cutscene to play the next level, I'm taking in the world and experiencing the dynamic gameplay in a way I could never do with the gameplay seen in games like Sonic Forces.

 

Sonic Colors was seen as the best Sonic game a decade.

 

When was the last time you've played it?

 

 

So in summary go play Sonic Mania for 2D Sonic goodness, and go play Mario Odyssey for 3D goodness?

[Tomzilla98]

So are there any current streams?

Or has the game been 100%-ed yet?

[Potada]

So in summary go play Sonic Mania for 2D Sonic goodness, and go play Mario Odyssey for 3D goodness?

Well, I mean, Odyssey is the best 3D Sonic game to come out in recent times. [emoji14]

Also @Indigo Rush, that was an excellent book report. 10 oughtta 10.

[Gabz Girl]

Umm..this game doesn’t seem to have a sound test? Only because the guy who livestreamed Sonic Forces went to different stages so someone else could record the music. That’s...what? Has there ever been a Sonic game with NO sound test??

[Dannymax440]

2 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

Umm..this game doesn’t seem to have a sound test? Only because the guy who livestreamed Sonic Forces went to different stages so someone else could record the music. That’s...what? Has there ever been a Sonic game with NO sound test??

Colors

[Multikaris]

22 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

So in summary go play Sonic Mania for 2D Sonic goodness, and go play Mario Odyssey for 3D goodness?

Well, it’s story wastes Pauline as much as this game wastes any of its characters, the final boss is another letdown...

[KHCast]

1 minute ago, Miragnarok said:

Well, it’s story wastes Pauline as much as this game wastes any of its characters, the final boss is another letdown...

If those are the only real complaints to be had, I think Indigo's point still stands lol.(and odyssey's final boss isn't anywhere near as bad as Forces we can all agree there I think)

[Multikaris]

Just now, KHCast said:

If those are the only real complaints to be had, I think Indigo's point still stands lol.(and odyssey's final boss isn't anywhere near as bad as Forces we can all agree there I think)

And gratuitous nostalgia pandering, lame settings, and yet more needless villains.

[KHCast]

1 minute ago, Miragnarok said:

And gratuitous nostalgia pandering, lame settings, and yet more needless villains.

Are we now doing the nostalgia argument to defend forces with Odyssey since the Mania one is done to death?

also, from what I've heard, the locations are all great?

[Diogenes]

This isn't the Mario Odyssey thread and I haven't played that game yet so can we maybe not go on a big potentially-spoilery tangent about this.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

This isn't the Mario Odyssey thread and I haven't played that game yet so can we maybe not go on a big potentially-spoilery tangent about this.

This. I'm so tired of going on YouTube and seeing thumbnails revealing like six different costumes at once. Or any number of things that would've been amazing to learn on my own. 

[dbzfan7]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

This isn't the Mario Odyssey thread and I haven't played that game yet so can we maybe not go on a big potentially-spoilery tangent about this.

Spoiler! Bowser kidnaps peach, and you have to go save her! Sorry couldn't help myself.

Though comparing the two without spoilers. Bowser goes all out in style where as pointed out in the thread, Eggman is more boring and military like rather than gleeful. Bowser oddly had that covered without saying how.

Also guys I suggest using UNSPOILER/Video Blocker for things you don't want spoiled. It automatically blocks out all videos and mentions of key words you put into those apps.

[KHCast]

I know it's intentional and all, but am I the only one that sees the army of Zavocks, Shadows, Chaos,etc and just thinks it looks lazy and done to save time? I mean would have been nice to see some other enemies Sonic's faced in the army, even if they had no role in the story. Plus it's not like the villain illusions did much already, so adding a few more at the end wouldn't throw anything off

[superman43]

What bugs me most is that the uninteresting final phase of final boss has really good theme, whereas the other two are almost nothing. And from the final boss only the second phase is somehow "new".

[Blue Wisp]

I wasn't around when Sonic 06 released, was that game as divisive as this game is?

Because I'm honestly surprised how divisive this game is. You've got people loving this game, you've got people absolutely despising this game and its guts, you've got people in between that loves some stuff and hates some stuff (like me). 

I don't know if Sonic 06 got to this level when it released but kudos to SEGA if they managed to top that game.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

IIn summation, it doesn't look fun because it's providing little else between each visual spectacle besides one-note gameplay and repetitive challenges. We have noticed the patterns, we know who's developing the game down to their names, and it's failing to hook many of us because we've wised up to Sonic Team's playbook. Sonic Forces is going to be a blast for many of you to play through the first, maybe even the second and third time. But once you slog through every EX platforming challenge and collect everything you can, once you've watched the cutscenes enough times to burn them into your conscious like the Adventure games had for us older folk, I can't guarantee you're going to want to replay those levels once the charm has worn off.

Meanwhile... I, and many others have played through those old Genesis games time and time again. Not simply because it's what I grew up with as a youngster, but because I still discover new things even 20 years later. I find new ways to use Sonic's momentum physics to improve my skill. Each playthrough becomes different and my experience is never the exact same. The designers don't ask me to play the game the exact way they want me too, their hand is not felt strongly, they give me the freedom to take this other path, they want me to go back as a different character and go off the beaten path in multiple ways to find new ways to beat the level. I'm not being guided by a story, I'm not rushing to the end so I can skip the next cutscene to play the next level, I'm taking in the world and experiencing the dynamic gameplay in a way I could never do with the gameplay seen in games like Sonic Forces.

Just to clarify, is this in regards to the level design of Forces/Colours specifically, or the level design of Boost games as a whole?

Because if it's as a whole, yeah, going to have to disagree big time. Colours, yes is one of the least replayable games for me. Mainly due to the fact not only is it a hassle to go through and hook up my Wii U to play it, but while the levels can be fun, I don't like the cut up structure of them, nor how they aren't really memorable outside of maybe Planet Wisp. 

But, with that said, I find myself going back to play levels from Generations and Unleashed a lot. Not only because they're fun to blast through but the additional paths to find and run through make them a lot more replayable. I still can't find it being an thing of "just blast through as best you can" because Unleashed and Gens were just as much about trying to figure out alt routes, taking higher paths, and exploring the levels. Stuff like Modern City Escape and Arid Sands Day especially had me replaying them a lot due to needing to figure out paths for red star rings, and speedrunning paths when I was going through for trophies. 

[Razule]

I've finally figured out the ten stages Shadow's DLC refers to. Must be counting boss stages.

Sonic's seven levels plus Zavok, Infinite, and Metal Sonic. 0.01% Eggman has control of probably IS the Shadow DLC. 

[theofficefan99]

15 minutes ago, Saber Wisp said:

I wasn't around when Sonic 06 released, was that game as divisive as this game is?

Because I'm honestly surprised how divisive this game is. You've got people loving this game, you've got people absolutely despising this game and its guts, you've got people in between that loves some stuff and hates some stuff (like me). 

I don't know if Sonic 06 got to this level when it released but kudos to SEGA if they managed to top that game.

Sonic 06 isn't "divisive," it's a straight-up broken, glitchy mess.

 

And I wouldn't call this "divisive," either. Just some people who are like "meh, looks fun anyways," and others who are furious about the seemingly soulless direction this game took.

[Gabz Girl]

23 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Well, it’s story wastes Pauline as much as this game wastes any of its characters, the final boss is another letdown...

Are we seriously comparing these two games? I haven’t beaten Odyssey yet but I’m pretty damn sure that the final boss does not rehash or copy a final boss from a previous game like Sonic Forces did! 

[Indigo Rush]

3 hours ago, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

Just to clarify, is this in regards to the level design of Forces/Colours specifically, or the level design of Boost games as a whole?

Colors and Forces specifically. I still don't think the other boost games are a best case scenario for longetivity either, but they do have more depth to them and are easier to return to thanks to a marginally higher skill ceiling.

[Bobnik]

I guess with all this negativity surrounded around this game, I think I'll post something that's actually pretty cool (for me at least). Note: this screenshot ain't mine, but I got it from the forum post from a person that got the game early.